End of the line for return rail tickets

[yorksrob]

The proposed system (if they are actually adopting the Edinburgh trial) is almost identical to what Germany is doing.

Yes, but is the price identical. That's at the heart of the matter

 

[Haywain]

Yes, but is the price identical. That's at the heart of the matter

Identical to Germany? Of course not.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, true. I wonder if that's being mulled over for contactless and local services?

Unacceptable to do it for contactless - the price has to be advertised in advance so I can't see surge pricing being a thing on contactless!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Identical to Germany? Of course not.

Non-London fares are at very similar levels, to be fair.

Unacceptable to do it for contactless - the price has to be advertised in advance so I can't see surge pricing being a thing on contactless!

I think the Torygraph has misunderstood what an Advance ticket is, to be honest.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the Torygraph has misunderstood what an Advance ticket is, to be honest.

Yes, their reporting on this has been poor since the announcement. It does sound like whoever is reporting for them doesn't use trains very widely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, their reporting on this has been poor since the announcement. It does sound like whoever is reporting for them doesn't use trains very widely.

It does sound that way, the article implying that tickets are only fixed price and completely ignoring that Advances are the majority of tickets LNER sell.

 

[milgram]

"surge pricing" aka the end of cheap super off peak weekend tickets to London...

 

[yorkie]

I don't like this idea of "surge pricing". How is it "simplified" if you can't get a predictable walk on fare ?

Everyone has their own idea of "simple"; many people consider Ryanair's fares to be simple. They are unpredictable.

Some people think that the fare can be anything and can go up or down at a moments notice and still be simple, providing it is ONLY valid on one specific train or flight. The problem with such "simple" fares if you do get on the wrong train, you can be charged from scratch!

While those who support such "simple" fares may claim to like the simplicity of understanding that it is only valid on one train, rather than a range of trains, they won't like the fact such tickets cannot be excessed. Or maybe they prefer the simplicity of being charged a whole new ticket, rather than the difference.

Simpletons must not dictate the value the rest of us get from the railway in my opinion!

I can’t help feeling that the way advances are (or aren’t) made available is far more opaque than the ‘never change’ cost of a particular off peak or anytime ticket product.

Advance fares increase yield management and make money for companies like LNER; the Government wants to reduce subsidy, so is also in with the idea. It's not a customer focussed decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"surge pricing" aka the end of cheap super off peak weekend tickets to London...

LNER's original trial, which is said to be being extended, retains those as singles at half the return fare.

 

[yorkie]

LNER's original trial, which is said to be being extended, retains those as singles at half the return fare.

Stevenage to London single for £5.30 each way? Are you certain this will be retained?

[URL ]https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SVG&dest=KGX&rte=27&tkt=GDR[/URL]

​ Standard​ RETURN​	​ SUP OFFPK DAY R [1S] GDR​
From​	STEVENAGE​	​	​
To​	LONDON KINGS X​	​	​
Route​	LNER ONLY​	​	​

<-- Back to list of fares

PRICE
Fare set by:​	IEC LONDON NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY​
Passengers per ticket:​	1 adult OR 1 child​
Discount Status​	Status Code (shown on ticket)​	Price​
ADULT​	​	£10.60​

 

[milgram]

LNER's original trial, which is said to be being extended, retains those as singles at half the return fare.

Well I don't think the government is constrained by te conditions of this trial. They can always change it, put some buzzwords on it like "increased flexibility" and call it a day. At this point nobody knows but to see "airline-style" and "train tickets" in the same paragraph is making my blood pressure rise.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Think about this for a moment, there are two people on here trying to allay fears, ever thought those two people may know exactly what the plans are?

 

[Jurg]

Surge pricing? Some might say prices have been surging for years

 

[CaptainHaddock]

LNER's original trial, which is said to be being extended, retains those as singles at half the return fare.

If, as LNER claim, their single fares are half the return fares why is a Doncaster York single still priced at a whopping £20.10 (for a 20 minute journey!) when an Off Peak Return is £20.20?

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[AlterEgo]

If, as LNER claim, their single fares are half the return fares why is a Doncaster York single still priced at a whopping £20.10 (for a 20 minute journey!) when an Off Peak Return is £20.20?

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Their trial did not include short distance day tickets:

The trial will remove the following ticket types from sale on some LNER city to city journeys:

• Anytime Return
• Super Off-Peak Return
• Off-Peak Return

Customers will instead have the option to purchase the following single ticket types:

• Anytime Single
• Super Off-Peak Single
• Advance Single

 

[Haywain]

If, as LNER claim, their single fares are half the return fares why is a Doncaster York single still priced at a whopping £20.10 (for a 20 minute journey!) when an Off Peak Return is £20.20?

Not only did the trial not include short distance day tickets, it was only trialled on three flows: London to Leeds, Edinburgh and Newcastle, none of which had day return fares. As a result, no return fares have been removed from the Doncaster to York flow, yet.

 

[Richardr]

Yes, their reporting on this has been poor since the announcement. It does sound like whoever is reporting for them doesn't use trains very widely.

To be fair, they are only "reporting" what they are told by the government. None of us, including their reporters, know what is really being planned

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Stevenage to London single for £5.30 each way? Are you certain this will be retained?

[URL ]https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=SVG&dest=KGX&rte=27&tkt=GDR[/URL]

That fare doesn't seem to me like a 'normal' fare (In the sense of being consistent with most other fares): Rather, it looks like an attempt by LNER to deny revenue to Thameslink. It's only available at weekends, and when it is available, it would presumably encourage passengers travelling only a short way to get on long distance trains, to the detriment of actual long distance passengers. It also contributes to the general unfairness of fares where fares seem unrelated to distance travelled (for example, if on a quick check, the cheapest you could get to London from Welwyn Garden City would appear to be £14.40 for a cheap day return. Surely, Welwyn to London should not be more expensive than Stevenage to London!)

For all those reasons, I don't think I'd lose too much sleep over losing that particular fare if it was part of a general process of making fares fairer and more consistent. In principle, I'd love for fares to be lower generally, but that's a separate issue, and I don't think the fare structure - or the interests of the travelling public as a whole - is particularly helped by having odd anomalous fares that are only available from particular stations (even though that's doubtless nice for the few individuals who can take advantage of those anomalies).

 

[Bletchleyite]

That fare doesn't seem to me like a 'normal' fare (In the sense of being consistent with most other fares): Rather, it looks like an attempt by LNER to deny revenue to Thameslink. It's only available at weekends, and when it is available, it would presumably encourage passengers travelling only a short way to get on long distance trains, to the detriment of actual long distance passengers. It also contributes to the general unfairness of fares where fares seem unrelated to distance travelled (for example, if on a quick check, the cheapest you could get to London from Welwyn Garden City would appear to be £14.40 for a cheap day return. Surely, Welwyn to London should not be more expensive than Stevenage to London!)

For all those reasons, I don't think I'd lose too much sleep over losing that particular fare. In principle, I'd love for fares to be lower generally, but that's a separate issue, and I don't think the fare structure is particularly helped by having odd anomalous fares that are only available from particular stations (even though that's doubtless nice for the few individuals who can take advantage of those anomalies).

I suspect in reality that contactless payment expansion in the South East will get rid of that fare. And to be honest, I agree - good riddance - simplicity is better than a few people being able to save a few quid.

That isn't a popular opinion among the experts on here, but it's the overriding public view, and mine too.

 

[WelshBluebird]

but it's the overriding public view

Is it? Have you surveyed the people of Stevenage and asked them if they want their weekend trips to London to become almost 25% more expensive in the name of simplicity?

GWR have used the same "simplicity" excuse for removing period returns on some flows recently (although to give them credit they have said they are looking at that decision again now, but that may be interrupted by this government announcement I guess!), and as someone whose regular journey has now gone up by over 30% because of that, I'd much rather the more complex fare structure and cheaper prices!

And I am sure this example isn't the only example where passengers will end up having to pay a fair bit more for their journey (which is exactly why a lot of us are very skeptical).

 

[infobleep]

What to do with places like Bedford and Milton Keynes where there's both a period and a day return is an interesting question. I suspect in both these cases sales of the period returns are absolutely tiny, and so the singles would be based on the day returns or very, very close to them. There are relatively few flows where you get both, and they are almost all journeys of about 50 miles, where day trips are by far the most common thing people do. The more common case is that journeys under 50 miles only have a day return, and journeys over 50 miles only have a period return.

There are plenty of places in the southeast where both period and day returns exist. For example Guildford to Haywards Heath. I could find hundreds more if I wanted to.

I make use of period returns a lot. I also semi-regularly break my return journey overnight.

Or I break my outward journey on the same day. For example, I might go to Haywards Heath via Clapaham Junction. Whilst at Clapham Junction I might make an additional journey to Putney to attend a gig and then go back to Clapham Junction afterwards to continue my journey to Haywards Heath.

If I have to buy a single to Putbey, a single from Putbey to Haywards Heath and then a single from Haywards Heath to Guildford, it would cost me more.

As for as advanced fares, there are no advanced fares are covering both South Western Raikway and Govia Thameslink Railway in the southeast, as far as I am aware.

I can get advances from Guildford on SWR and Great Western Railway to places on lines that they run to and I can get advanced fares from Haywards Heath to places GTR run to but between Guildford and Haywards Heath nothing.

I do accept they could change this fact but it would require corporation across TOCs via the DfT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or I break my outward journey on the same day. For example, I might go to Haywards Heath via Clapaham Junction. Whilst at Clapham Junction I might make an additional journey to Putney to attend a gig and then go back to Clapham Junction afterwards to continue my journey to Haywards Heath.

You're in a tiny minority doing that. The system is too complex precisely because it caters to all manner of minority use-cases. We need to make it simple and usable for the majority of users, even if it slightly increases the price for minority use-cases, like your example here where three contactless "singles" (at much better prices than now) would be the way to achieve your needs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Or I break my outward journey on the same day. For example, I might go to Haywards Heath via Clapaham Junction. Whilst at Clapham Junction I might make an additional journey to Putney to attend a gig and then go back to Clapham Junction afterwards to continue my journey to Haywards Heath.

Is that actually strictly speaking allowed? I was under the impression that breaks of journey are not usually permitted on outward journeys?

 

[Skymonster]

I think the Torygraph has misunderstood what an Advance ticket is, to be honest.

Yes, their reporting on this has been poor since the announcement. It does sound like whoever is reporting for them doesn't use trains very widely.

I don’t think the Telegraph reporting has been poor really. Simplified in terms of the overall ramifications maybe, but the journo who wrote it has clearly been briefed or leaked by the government (even quoting the opening of what is to be said tonight), and is just reporting rather than conducting an investigative piece into the wider implications.

To me, the article reads as there being three components to this reform:

• Surge pricing
• Scrapping returns
• Extension of smartcard use in the south east

In terms of “surge pricing”, the article says there is to be a new trial on LNER. The whole industry, including LNER, has long been able to massage prices through Advance tiers and availability, so this smacks as something more than that, rather than a misunderstanding (particularly given the article seems to have been the result of a brief or a leak). BTW, the airlines have never really used the term surge pricing anyway, despite the article asserting that it is used by the industry (the term in aviation is “dynamic pricing”, which leads me to think the use of the words surge pricing is again something briefed / leaked, and potentially different from just managing Advances).

The scrapping returns is a concern, especially given the wording “single fares will never cost more than half the cost of a return.” What return? Technically the brief could be met if the cheapest single cost half of the period open return. Lets hope there’s more to this to protect the consumer, but as I‘ve already pointed out the Telegraph article is just reporting a brief rather than being investigative.

Hopefully more will become clearer tonight, although I suspect there will be detail lacking in the speech, which will mean a multitude of misunderstandings and potential hidden price rises will still exist and will remain until the full details are released.

We can pontificate about it here - and probably still will be doing tomorrow as I doubt all the fine detail will come out this evening - but time for robust informed kick back is when the detail is known, pointing out where customers will lose rather than gain. There was an opportunity to do just that when the timetable of the day was introduced (along with all the inherent disadvantages that brought for the customer), but it was missed and the change garnered very little adverse publicity at the time. If the surge pricing and single leg pricing does indeed have the potential to cost some customers more, then examples need to be pushed to the press by consumer advocates and pro-rail campaigners once they are exposed.

 

[bakerstreet]

I suspect in reality that contactless payment expansion in the South East will get rid of that fare. And to be honest, I agree - good riddance - simplicity is better than a few people being able to save a few quid.

That isn't a popular opinion among the experts on here, but it's the overriding public view, and mine too.

Is it? Have you surveyed the people of Stevenage and asked them if they want their weekend trips to London to become almost 25% more expensive in the name of simplicity?

GWR have used the same "simplicity" excuse for removing period returns on some flows recently (although to give them credit they have said they are looking at that decision again now, but that may be interrupted by this government announcement I guess!), and as someone whose regular journey has now gone up by over 30% because of that, I'd much rather the more complex fare structure and cheaper prices!

And I am sure this example isn't the only example where passengers will end up having to pay a fair bit more for their journey (which is exactly why a lot of us are very skeptical).

My thaneslink weekend super off peak day return ticket is 16.00 compared to 26.20 on the weekday off peak day return.

Saving £10.20.

Lose it and that’s a rise of hmm something like 64%.

Hardly a few quid.

How is that any more complicated than countless advance tiers, tied to specific trains?

3 levels of walk up fares is simple.

If we’re all on our mobiles just give me the best flexible fare for the date I want to travel.

I’m not sure why anyone would support its removal.

 

[duncanp]

I don't think they could ever apply "surge pricing" to fares which are currently regulated, such as off peak or anytime. (singles & returns)

The travelling public just wouldn't stand for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that actually strictly speaking allowed? I was under the impression that breaks of journey are not usually permitted on outward journeys?

It mostly is. Only some restriction codes bar it, and those are normally ones where it could be used to avoid a higher short distance fare otherwise.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I suspect the "surge pricing" element is more around making the pricing of advances more dynamic. So maybe having a range of prices in which advances can be offered rather than set specific prices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think they could ever apply "surge pricing" to fares which are currently regulated, such as off peak or anytime. (singles & returns)

The travelling public just wouldn't stand for it.

I think that's just dressing up Advance Purchase on the Day using buzzword bingo. The Torygraph article may indeed be based on a leak, but it's terribly written and contains lots of contradictions.

I suspect the "surge pricing" element is more around making the pricing of advances more dynamic. So maybe having a range of prices in which advances can be offered rather than set specific prices.

You can set any number of prices now anyway. Just set a load 50p apart.

 

[duncanp]

I suspect the "surge pricing" element is more around making the pricing of advances more dynamic. So maybe having a range of prices in which advances can be offered rather than set specific prices.

I agree.

But if an advance is generally less than the off peak or anytime fare, there is an upper limit beyond which the price of an advance cannot be increased, otherwise it would be cheaper to buy the anytime fare.

Unless of course LNER make all their tickets advance only with compulsory reservation.

Perhaps I had better shut up, I don't want to be giving them ideas.