End of Yellow Front Ends?

[cjmillsnun]

Yellow fronts are an outdated requirement for a train in my opinion. With new lamps and increased safety requirements, clearly they're not needed.

Trains for me aren't about just the engineering, aesthetics matter too. 395s look great as yellow goes with blue, and 373s and 374s for the same reason. Most other liveries look terrible with a yellow patch on the front. Virgin got creative with the 390 and made a hideous yellow smile, but I guess it matches the childlike interior.

Let's take the opportunity to design some truly beautiful trains without being hamstrung by ancient, outdated safety requirements

Just no. From the posts of others who work trackside and drivers, yellow panels are still something they consider important. I trust their opinion which is from a safe working culture, something I also have to consider when I'm approving work in the field I work in, which also is of a heavy engineering nature. Lights fail. Bright sunlight can obsure them. A big yellow panel on the other hand is visible, even with the sun in your eyes.

Similar thoughts on aesthetics to yours were given on the southeastern 375 refurbs where thick lines are used to denote where first class, and more important reduced mobility access. IMO Southeastern's choice choice was the right one.

 

[jonty14]

Most other European countries don't have yellow warning panels . How do they cope? Do they have more lineside accidents?

 

[AlexNL]

In the Netherlands a requirement existed that all rolling stock had to have an area of at least a 1 m² in white or yellow on the front. This rule was abolished a couple of years ago, and since then we have seen a bit more variation such as class 1600 locomotives in DB "Verkehrsrot".

I don't think there have been more lineside accidents since, but regulations have gotten more strict throughout the past years. Dutch track workers are no longer allowed to work on track A if the adjacent track is still in service and there is no physical barrier in place.

Fun fact about the contrast area: a couple of years ago DB Schenker acquired some class 1600 locos from NS. These locomotives were yellow (as per the NS livery), so DB had them repainted. When the first one was outshopped, a picture of it was published online - the designer had applied the white contrast area as per the requirements. There was an inverted DB logo on the loco's nose, which looked absolutely awful.

I sent an e-mail to IL&T (the Dutch railway inspectorate) to inquire about the contrast area, just asking about the exact requirements. They replied saying that the requirement had been dropped, and I shared that e-mail on the forum where the picture was first published. Someone else on that forum forwarded my response to DB Schenker. By the time the second loco was outshopped, the white contrast area was gone and they had now correctly applied DB's corporate livery.

 

[azz7008]

Pendolino looks quite nice without the yellow front. (poor photoshop haha)

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think we should be valuing aesthetics over safety, but do the yellow warning panels really make that much difference these days?

LUL stock can travel on NR metals without a warning panel and nobody gets injured; it's the same with steam. Other countries don't have them, trams don't have them, etc etc.

My main concern would be that engineers are used to seeing them, and it will take a while to get used to their absence.

 

[Elecman]

Do IWA's still exist?
Because I frequently used to out and about on my own.
Responsible for my own safety.
Yellow ends are better for visibility especially on an undulating line when the lights may be down in the dip.

Yes IWAs do still exist I'm one!!

 

[D365]

My main concern would be that engineers are used to seeing them, and it will take a while to get used to their absence.

If trackside engineers are used to seeing yellow, isn't that a benefit for them?

 

[JaJaWa]

Pendolino looks quite nice without the yellow front. (poor photoshop haha)

The IEPs for Virgin Trains East Coast will apparently have red fronts

 

[mark-h]

Pendolino looks quite nice without the yellow front. (poor photoshop haha)

Without the yellow the smile looks evil.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yellow fronts are an outdated requirement for a train in my opinion. With new lamps and increased safety requirements, clearly they're not needed.

Trains for me aren't about just the engineering, aesthetics matter too. 395s look great as yellow goes with blue, and 373s and 374s for the same reason. Most other liveries look terrible with a yellow patch on the front. Virgin got creative with the 390 and made a hideous yellow smile, but I guess it matches the childlike interior.

Let's take the opportunity to design some truly beautiful trains without being hamstrung by ancient, outdated safety requirements

With the possible exception of the organisation who actually designed the trains it seems to me that the only people who care about the aesthetics of a train are rail enthusiasts. In which case why should anyone, let alone the TOC's care as to what a rail enthusiast thinks? Let's face facts; its just a train. As long as it arrives / departs on time and they get a seat passengers couldn't give a monkeys what it looks like. In all of this, along with people working on the tracks they are the only group of people that matter here.

 

[ExRes]

With the possible exception of the organisation who actually designed the trains it seems to me that the only people who care about the aesthetics of a train are rail enthusiasts. In which case why should anyone, let alone the TOC's care as to what a rail enthusiast thinks? Let's face facts; its just a train. As long as it arrives / departs on time and they get a seat passengers couldn't give a monkeys what it looks like. In all of this, along with people working on the tracks they are the only group of people that matter here.

Absolutely 100%

 

[swt_passenger]

How do people actually know for certain that a front end with just the latest headlights and without a yellow panel won't be visible, as they presumably won't have ever seen one yet - or have some trials been done that no-one has heard about?

 

[ExRes]

How do people actually know for certain that a front end with just the latest headlights and without a yellow panel won't be visible, as they presumably won't have ever seen one yet - or have some trials been done that no-one has heard about?

Could it be that those who have worked on and close to the track simply believe safety to be paramount and aesthetics a very poor second ?

Perhaps those that want the warning panel removed for nothing more than cosmetic appeal will feel the same way should it happen and a life is lost for no more sensible a reason than a 'nicer' looking train

 

[Clip]

Could it be that those who have worked on and close to the track simply believe safety to be paramount and aesthetics a very poor second ?

so have you been working on track with a train without a yellow front end coming at you then?

Perhaps those that want the warning panel removed for nothing more than cosmetic appeal will feel the same way should it happen and a life is lost for no more sensible a reason than a 'nicer' looking train

Well its only enthusiasts who have been on about the aesthetics - its the people who deal with railway standards who have declared it isn't needed - are they more or less qualified than you to make such a decision?

 

[ash39]

With the possible exception of the organisation who actually designed the trains it seems to me that the only people who care about the aesthetics of a train are rail enthusiasts. In which case why should anyone, let alone the TOC's care as to what a rail enthusiast thinks? Let's face facts; its just a train. As long as it arrives / departs on time and they get a seat passengers couldn't give a monkeys what it looks like. In all of this, along with people working on the tracks they are the only group of people that matter here.

Can't fully agree with that. People judge the (perceived) quality of the train, TOC & journey on the initial exterior appearance of the train they are about to board, so it's important to present a good image. By your logic why not make all trains plain black and make carriage washers redundant??

I'd do agree with you that the inside of the train and the punctuality of the service is more important. I also agree that yellow ends should stay yellow, as it doesn't detract from most liveries and is suggested to be safer for track workers, why not leave it as it is.

 

[DeeGee]

I'm a passenger. If I need to identify a train operator I am quite capable of doing so using the many hundreds of square feet of livery on either side of the train.

I couldn't care less what colour the front of the train is, as I'm going to be spending most of my time inside it.

If lineside staff feel that one colour is intrinsically safer than the other, then I don't understand the clamour for a uniform colour scheme on the front. I've never once looked at a train and thought - "you know what, that'd be a gorgeous machine if it weren't for the safety panel at the front".

If it doesn't materially affect the passenger experience, and it detrimentally affects the employee experience, why are we changing things to suit branding companies and spotters?

 

[ExRes]

so have you been working on track with a train without a yellow front end coming at you then?

No, and nor would I want to
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well its only enthusiasts who have been on about the aesthetics - its the people who deal with railway standards who have declared it isn't needed - are they more or less qualified than you to make such a decision?

It depends whether they've actually ever set foot on a working railway, if they're desk jockeys then I wouldn't give a stuff for their opinions

 

[The 4th Rail]

Out of curiosity was there a specific event / accident that led to the yellow ends being introduced by BR?

Also does this mean the end of yellow ends for NI Railways?

 

[ainsworth74]

Out of curiosity was there a specific event / accident that led to the yellow ends being introduced by BR?

I believe it was more that the number of track side staff being killed by trains started to rise sharply once the new diesel and electric trains were introduced in the 1950s. Steam locomotives were very loud and hard to miss the new trains were considerably quieter until they were almost right on top of you so the yellow warning panel was added to help mitigate against this and make them much more obvious.

That's my understanding at least!

 

[geoffk]

Continental railways manage without yellow ends (except Hungary, I believe) and they are unfenced.

Are they unsafe?

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps those that want the warning panel removed for nothing more than cosmetic appeal will feel the same way should it happen and a life is lost for no more sensible a reason than a 'nicer' looking train

I've read the drafts of, and the newly agreed group standard, and seen some of the correspondence available online. It seems to me that the only intention is to bring the GB standard into line with the European TSIs?

There is nothing whatsoever that has ever mentioned aesthetic appearance as the reason behind the decision, and I for one have never mentioned appearance, and I have never mentioned 'wanting' its removal either. In previous discussions in other threads I have simply drawn attention to the source documentation when people have expressed surprise about it happening.

Perhaps discussions by others here about the effect on appearance are a bit of a red herring.

 

[AM9]

I've read the drafts of, and the newly agreed group standard, and seen some of the correspondence available online. It seems to me that the only intention is to bring the GB standard into line with the European TSIs?

There is nothing whatsoever that has ever mentioned aesthetic appearance as the reason behind the decision, and I for one have never mentioned appearance, and I have never mentioned 'wanting' its removal either. In previous discussions in other threads I have simply drawn attention to the source documentation when people have expressed surprise about it happening.

Perhaps discussions by others here about the effect on appearance are a bit of a red herring.

The first post on this thread didn't mention safety but did say: "It's going to be strange to see units and locomotives without their traditional yellow fronts." So why is discussion on the appearance of trains without yellow-painted fronts "a bit of a red herring"?

 

[Clip]

No, and nor would I want to

So you cant compare the two but are making a decision based on not being able to compare like for like then

It depends whether they've actually ever set foot on a working railway, if they're desk jockeys then I wouldn't give a stuff for their opinions

So you don't know and are just making wild assumptions about these people.

 

[ExRes]

So you cant compare the two but are making a decision based on not being able to compare like for like then



So you don't know and are just making wild assumptions about these people.

How many people WOULD be able to compare like for like then ?

I just love making wild assumptions, as you do, why don't you try reading the sentence you quoted, think about it for a minute or two and then tell me exactly what wild assumptions I made

 

[swt_passenger]

The first post on this thread didn't mention safety but did say: "It's going to be strange to see units and locomotives without their traditional yellow fronts." So why is discussion on the appearance of trains without yellow-painted fronts "a bit of a red herring"?

I think because by immediately introducing a photoshopped front end it turned into a sort of 'effect on liveries' discussion, whereas the more informed posters seem to want a discussion about the effect on how to safely see a train in the distance...

 

[Clip]

How many people WOULD be able to compare like for like then ?

I just love making wild assumptions, as you do, why don't you try reading the sentence you quoted, think about it for a minute or two and then tell me exactly what wild assumptions I made

I don't have to make them based on one sentence its based on your whole attitude which you summed up nicely at the end by telling them they can go stuff themselves. And as you have not worked yet on a railway with trains without a yellow panel on them then you cant say for sure which is safer can you?

Go back and read the original document about this and actually read what it says about how the lights on the front should be before they can remove the yellow warning panel - Ill give you a clue - you will need 3 in a pyramid formation.

 

[ExRes]

I don't have to make them based on one sentence its based on your whole attitude which you summed up nicely at the end by telling them they can go stuff themselves. And as you have not worked yet on a railway with trains without a yellow panel on them then you cant say for sure which is safer can you?

Go back and read the original document about this and actually read what it says about how the lights on the front should be before they can remove the yellow warning panel - Ill give you a clue - you will need 3 in a pyramid formation.

This is my final comment to you as I'm not going to get involved in a boring and pointless argument, you are such a clever person that you're able to work out my 'whole attitude' even though you can't actually read, kindly quote me where I told ANYONE 'they can go stuff themselves'

I have not read the original document and I have no intention to, my comments are based on my experience as a former Train Driver and are my personal views on the subject, neither do I need your stupid 'i'll give you a clue' comment

Feel free to make any further comments you wish, whatever they are they will not be met with a response by me, although I just may be interested to know your working experience on the railway and your experience of the difference in safety between trains with and without yellow warning panels

 

[Tetchytyke]

How many people WOULD be able to compare like for like then ?

Anyone who works on Network Rail metals where LUL stock operate.

I'm not aware of a massive increase in injuries there. Are you?

I genuinely asked if we needed yellow panels anymore, given that no other country has them and given that LUL trains and trams don't have them. Obviously those in charge of railway standards think not, given the improvements in lighting.

 

[Clip]

This is my final comment to you as I'm not going to get involved in a boring and pointless argument, you are such a clever person that you're able to work out my 'whole attitude' even though you can't actually read, kindly quote me where I told ANYONE 'they can go stuff themselves'

Ok then you win but its what you were getting at anyway wasn't it when you said

, if they're desk jockeys then I wouldn't give a stuff for their opinions

I have not read the original document and I have no intention to, my comments are based on my experience as a former Train Driver and are my personal views on the subject, neither do I need your stupid 'i'll give you a clue' comment

So you are not actually interested in any of the detail as to why they have come to this decision now the process of it? That's a shame really as if you had read the document you would have gained an understanding that a lot of this and the positioning of lamps was to help reduce the glare to other drivers(you know with you being an ex driver) and as such it goes on about the yellow front ends in that same document but you don't want to know any of that do you.

Feel free to make any further comments you wish, whatever they are they will not be met with a response by me, although I just may be interested to know your working experience on the railway and your experience of the difference in safety between trains with and without yellow warning panels

Like you though I have no experience of working on a railway without yellow panels on either end of a train which is why I am not making statements that it will be less safe to work on one without them.

 

[Domh245]

I think that whilst the cab end doesn't need to be yellow, it ought to be of a colour that will contrast sufficiently with the surroundings (and with any luck, they will be! TOCs will hopefully refrain from white - which wouldn't contrast that well, as it would get filthy very quickly). You may not be able to see a trains headlights in bright light, but you should definitely be able to see a large dark front heading towards you.