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Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

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Deltic1961

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Our local Chinese "Street food" place put up a chow mein from £8.50 to £10.50 and a coke from £1.50 to £2.70 and that was 3 months ago without the recent increases.

People just won't go out if its unaffordable.

The more the prices go up the less customers they will get. Its a perfect storm.
 
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XAM2175

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No, it means the retailer was purchasing renewable energy tokens equivalent to your use. But the time of use is in no way related to the time at which the renewable energy is generated.
Yes. At no point did I say that there was a 1:1 match between usage and generation for any given consumer at any given time.
 

duncanp

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The hospitality industry is going to be absolutely decimated if nothing is done. That not only will mean horrendous unemployment and vastly reduced receipts to the Exchequer, but we will lose so much of our traditional way of life.

This is exactly what was said at the beginning of the COVID lockdown in March 2020.

The government will have to come up with a package of support, and it looks like more help will be announced soon after the new prime minister takes office.

We will have to wait and see what form that help takes, but whatever is done will be expensive, and will take one or two generations to pay it back.

But the government must learn the lessons of the COVID pandemic, and have an exit strategy, whereby support is gradually withdrawn as energy prices fall.

And energy prices will fall eventually, much like COVID cases, because there comes a point when people just can't afford to pay the high prices any more.
 

JamesT

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Any particular reason we will face 300% rises, but French people will only see 4% rises? How is that in any way justifable?
The French generate more of their electricity from nuclear so they're less exposed to the gas prices. But they've also chosen to nationalise EDF and have that take the hit. They'll pay eventually through their taxes.
 

yorksrob

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Our local Chinese "Street food" place put up a chow mein from £8.50 to £10.50 and a coke from £1.50 to £2.70 and that was 3 months ago without the recent increases.

People just won't go out if its unaffordable.

The more the prices go up the less customers they will get. Its a perfect storm.

For that price, I'd rather sit in.

Any particular reason we will face 300% rises, but French people will only see 4% rises? How is that in any way justifable?

We have our own gas reserves, but we've licensed private companies to sell said gas back to us at inflated prices, based on market speculation.
 

Bletchleyite

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And energy prices will fall eventually, much like COVID cases, because there comes a point when people just can't afford to pay the high prices any more.

They won't and they shouldn't. We need to reduce our consumption.

Government help should solely be to smooth the effect so people have time to make those changes, plus helping them to make them via e.g. insulation.

If 42 degrees Celsius isn't a wakeup, perhaps the price will be?

For COVID things have eventually returned to "old normal". For energy, they cannot, will not and must not.
 

TheAnswer89

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The French generate more of their electricity from nuclear so they're less exposed to the gas prices. But they've also chosen to nationalise EDF and have that take the hit. They'll pay eventually through their taxes.

We are talking about 4% and 300%. Do they generate 90+% of their energy from nuclear?
 

duncanp

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They won't and they shouldn't. We need to reduce our consumption.

Government help should solely be to smooth the effect so people have time to make those changes, plus helping them to make them via e.g. insulation.

If 42 degrees Celsius isn't a wakeup, perhaps the price will be?

For COVID things have eventually returned to "old normal". For energy, they cannot, will not and must not.

They may not fall back to the levels we have seen recently, such as having an energy price cap of around £1,000, but neither are they going to keep rising at the rate of 50% to 80% every three months.

If the current and future forecast prices don't make people think about reducing their energy usage, then nothing else will.

There eventually comes a pont when you can't reduce energy usage any further without serious and unacceptable consequences, such as hypothermia because you can't afford to heat your house.

If the energy price cap were to rise to £6,000 and stay there for any length of time. there would be civil unrest, and the cost of all the support measures would become unaffordable.
 

Herefordian

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We seem to be rolling out the RUK Standard Minority again.

Everyone who CAN do these things SHOULD do them. It is much more feasible for the Government to help those who CANNOT than everyone, including those who just stubbornly WILL NOT.

No, we're not. I just care about people who are less fortunate than me.

Of course they should. However my point is, at present, plenty of people cannot.

I'd say the chances of a government-supported insulation scheme are, for the foreseeable, slim-to-none.

The priority right now should be helping people and businesses to survive. We can, and should, look at insulation later.
 

Deltic1961

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Didn't we all pay a premium about 15 years ago to cover a nationwide insulation scheme? Pretty sure we did.

They were offering "free" roof and underfloor insulation if applicable.
 

Bletchleyite

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The priority right now should be helping people and businesses to survive. We can, and should, look at insulation later.

They are not mutually exclusive. We need a time limited help scheme, and we need at the same time to be sorting out the way it can be so.

Didn't we all pay a premium about 15 years ago to cover a nationwide insulation scheme? Pretty sure we did.

There was, yes. More is clearly needed.
 

Deltic1961

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Thing is we live in a granite house built in 1950. It would be impossible to fit cavity wall insulation due to the way the property is built. We have roof insulation and good doors and windows but it's not enough in the winter. Suspect many others in the same situation.
 

Gostav

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The hospitality industry is going to be absolutely decimated if nothing is done. That not only will mean horrendous unemployment and vastly reduced receipts to the Exchequer, but we will lose so much of our traditional way of life.
Is going back to traditional life means that ordinary people will be used to cold houses, and the family lives in a house of less than 100 square meters? and three meals a day are rice mixed with millet or bread mixed with barley, and only a little pickle, two saury and a bowl of miso soup. When someone gives your family a basket of fruit, you will be amazed and say "such a precious gift!".

Going back to tradition from the extravagant life is not easy, but people will get used to it eventually.
 

Trainbike46

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Thing is we live in a granite house built in 1950. It would be impossible to fit cavity wall insulation due to the way the property is built. We have roof insulation and good doors and windows but it's not enough in the winter. Suspect many others in the same situation.
There are solutions for houses like that (without cavity walls) though, such as insulating the inside walls or insulating the outside (both depending on the property). Plus there may be the option of underfloor insulation and improving the roof insulation further
 

Trainbike46

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Is going back to traditional life means that ordinary people will be used to cold houses, and the family lives in a house of less than 100 square meters? and three meals a day are rice mixed with millet or bread mixed with barley, and only a little pickle, two saury and a bowl of miso soup. When someone gives your family a basket of fruit, you will be amazed and say "such a precious gift!".

Going back to tradition from the extravagant life is not easy, but people will get used to it eventually.
No-one, other than you, is suggesting we do that
 

Herefordian

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They are not mutually exclusive. We need a time limited help scheme, and we need at the same time to be sorting out the way it can be so.

Where is the money coming from?

I agree plans should be made for a mass roll-out of insulation, but I feel the money this would cost is better used elsewhere at the moment.

Providing financial support packages for people and businesses which need it is, for now, a higher priority.

Right now, people need food and jobs more than loft insulation.
 

Trainbike46

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Where is the money coming from?

I agree plans should be made for a mass roll-out of insulation, but I feel the money this would cost is better used elsewhere at the moment.

Providing financial support packages for people and businesses which need it is, for now, a higher priority.

Right now, people need food and jobs more than loft insulation.
We should be working to resolve the problem permanently (by insulating properties), while we provide temporary essential support. We simply don't know when, or if, energy prices will come down, so it is essential that we work to eliminate the problem permanently at the earliest opportunity. Re the money, it will be cheaper to insulate sooner rather than later as there will be less time during which the temporary support is needed
 

Deltic1961

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Have you seen the state of some properties?

We were in Blackpool recently and a lot of the city was built in the 30s and quite frankly needs demolished before it collapses.

No insulation will fix that.
 

Bletchleyite

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Where is the money coming from?

Borrowing and taxation.

I agree plans should be made for a mass roll-out of insulation, but I feel the money this would cost is better used elsewhere at the moment.

Providing financial support packages for people and businesses which need it is, for now, a higher priority.

If we don't put in place long term measures to remove the need for the subsidies, they will go on forever.

Right now, people need food and jobs more than loft insulation.

Jobs? We near enough have full employment at the moment, companies can't get staff.

Food, well, if your energy costs are cut you'll better be able to afford it.
 

DelayRepay

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Where is the money coming from?
It is an investment that will pay for its self in reduced future energy bill subsidies, and a reduced future burden on our NHS.

I agree plans should be made for a mass roll-out of insulation, but I feel the money this would cost is better used elsewhere at the moment.
Do both, in parallel.

Providing financial support packages for people and businesses which need it is, for now, a higher priority.

Right now, people need food and jobs more than loft insulation.
People to be warm, and in the medium term insulation is a way to achieve that at a lower cost than crediting everyone's electricity account with £400 or whatever the figure ends up being. Clearly, we cannot insulate every home overnight, but every home we do insulate is a family that can keep warm. And it's slightly less demand on our energy resources which helps everyone else. If we don't, then we will be in a permanent cycle of government subsidies.

If I was the government, I would be ordering civil servants to draw up a plan to start the immediate insulation of homes. As a starting point, this would mean providing free materials to anyone who is able to do the work themselves (or if they have a willing family member or friend who was able to do it). While this was happening we could make plans to insulate homes belonging to those who cannot do the work themselves, or who need different solutions to rolls of loft insulation.
 

philosopher

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People to be warm, and in the medium term insulation is a way to achieve that at a lower cost than crediting everyone's electricity account with £400 or whatever the figure ends up being. Clearly, we cannot insulate every home overnight, but every home we do insulate is a family that can keep warm. And it's slightly less demand on our energy resources which helps everyone else. If we don't, then we will be in a permanent cycle of government subsidies.

If I was the government, I would be ordering civil servants to draw up a plan to start the immediate insulation of homes. As a starting point, this would mean providing free materials to anyone who is able to do the work themselves (or if they have a willing family member or friend who was able to do it). While this was happening we could make plans to insulate homes belonging to those who cannot do the work themselves, or who need different solutions to rolls of loft insulation.
Regarding insulation, surely a lot of people will improve their home insulation anyway, regardless of what government does as the current high energy prices means the pay back time will be a lot shorter than it was.

So perhaps any government grants for insulation should be focused on those on low incomes who may not have the capital to undertake home insulation measures otherwise.
 

yorksrob

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Is going back to traditional life means that ordinary people will be used to cold houses, and the family lives in a house of less than 100 square meters? and three meals a day are rice mixed with millet or bread mixed with barley, and only a little pickle, two saury and a bowl of miso soup. When someone gives your family a basket of fruit, you will be amazed and say "such a precious gift!".

Going back to tradition from the extravagant life is not easy, but people will get used to it eventually.

Well, one would like to think we have enough resources to avoid such dire straits.

Perhaps we could replace beef for beans to an extent.

Fundamentally your point is correct though. The country needs to be more self-sufficient.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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The French generate more of their electricity from nuclear so they're less exposed to the gas prices. But they've also chosen to nationalise EDF and have that take the hit. They'll pay eventually through their taxes.
Yes they do but nearly 30% of nukes are off line for repairs and there wholesale price is far higher than ours but govt is intervening at source through EdF to hold prices down as a result there inflation rate hasn't taken off and thus their wage claims are manageable. In the UK we have utterly lost the plot by allowing the energy price cap to directly increase inflation rate then attempt to part offset the impact through subsidies but they aren't in CPI. So we get unions pushing for bigger pay rises not realising that many of their low paid workers will already be in receipt of additional benefits.

Didn't we all pay a premium about 15 years ago to cover a nationwide insulation scheme? Pretty sure we did.

They were offering "free" roof and underfloor insulation if applicable.
We are still paying for something called the Warm Home Discount scheme to the tune of £500m pa through a levy on our bills which is supposedly used to jelp poorer households improve energy efficiency.
 

Essan

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Interesting i see the Chancellor has said people should save money by curbing their energy use, good idea i am choosing not to have my horse stables heated as i'd have to pay for it myself...

And I guess chip shops, cafes and pubs could do likewise by simply not opening ....

I understand why people are rightly concerned about their own costs, but I fear many do not appreciated the wider picture. Comng so soon after the Covid restrictions, this will totally change the British landscape :(
 

yorksrob

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Yes they do but nearly 30% of nukes are off line for repairs and there wholesale price is far higher than ours but govt is intervening at source through EdF to hold prices down as a result there inflation rate hasn't taken off and thus their wage claims are manageable. In the UK we have utterly lost the plot by allowing the energy price cap to directly increase inflation rate then attempt to part offset the impact through subsidies but they aren't in CPI. So we get unions pushing for bigger pay rises not realising that many of their low paid workers will already be in receipt of additional benefits.


We are still paying for something called the Warm Home Discount scheme to the tune of £500m pa through a levy on our bills which is supposedly used to jelp poorer households improve energy efficiency.

The Warm Homes Discount provides a direct discount to lower income households off of their fuel bills.

And I guess chip shops, cafes and pubs could do likewise by simply not opening ....

I understand why people are rightly concerned about their own costs, but I fear many do not appreciated the wider picture. Comng so soon after the Covid restrictions, this will totally change the British landscape :(

Absolutely. Small businesses are doubly hit by the utility rises and customers not coming in due to price rises.
 
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