EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Darandio]

Does democracy stop at the ballot box or not?

It doesn't if the person asked doesn't like the result.

 

[Gutfright]

"He disagrees... he must be trolling!"

Does democracy stop at the ballot box or not? It's a simple question. Should we lead the country into oblivion on the word of people who have repeatedly shown they have no idea what they're talking about and will believe anything so long as it's anti-EU?

I'm going to say no, democracy doesn't stop at the ballot box, purely because I want to see what twisted logic leads you to the conclusion that respecting the results of a democratic referendum is anti-democratic.

*gets popcorn out* This should be good...

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm going to say no, democracy doesn't stop at the ballot box, purely because I want to see what twisted logic leads you to the conclusion that respecting the results of a democratic referendum is anti-democratic.

*gets popcorn out* This should be good...

How about the lies of the Leave campaign and the people regretting the decision? It amazes me how people that have been campaigning for years suddenly seem to think democracy becomes static when they get what they want.

Calling it "twisted" because you have a child-like understanding of democracy is, yet again, anti-intellectualism from you.

 

[radamfi]

Running a second referendum does at first glance look unrealistic right now. But if we look at Switzerland, they are in a fairly similar situation. They had a referendum in 2014 to restrict freedom of movement and there was a tiny majority (50.3% to 49.7%). The Swiss have been trying to negotiate with the EU for the last two years to maintain access to the single market and impose immigration quotas but the EU is not budging on freedom of movement. So it looks quite likely that the Swiss will have another referendum to avoid having to pull out of the single market.

 

[GatwickDepress]

One of the pillars of democracy is the ability to keep fighting for what you believe in. We don't live in a society where we "shut up and put up" and that is a good thing.

I feel that the results of this referendum are a little different, in that the arguments put forward by the Leave campaign were misrepresentation at best and downright lies at worst, so there is a lot more weight to those who dissent with the referendum's results.

 

[Harbornite]

Surely it is undemocratic to deny another referendum because people can't have their say if one isn't held. Personally I think we should just get on with it, but holding only one more referendum wouldn't be a missve issue IMO.

 

[Senex]

One of the pillars of democracy is the ability to keep fighting for what you believe in. We don't live in a society where we "shut up and put up" and that is a good thing.

A pillar very noisily exploited by the Brexiters ever since 1975.

I feel that the results of this referendum are a little different, in that the arguments put forward by the Leave campaign were misrepresentation at best and downright lies at worst, so there is a lot more weight to those who dissent with the referendum's results.

I agree very much. OK, so all political campaigns involve a measure of liberty with the truth, but the misrepresentations and downright lies of the Leave campaign coupled with a lack of any clear policy offering for what might come next were in a class quite of their own.

 

[Johnuk123]

But are you really advocating violence because things don't go your way?

I'm not advocating anything I'm saying that if the country ignored a democratic vote for no other reason than it went "the wrong way" this country would see massive upheaval.

 

[Gutfright]

One of the pillars of democracy is the ability to keep fighting for what you believe in. We don't live in a society where we "shut up and put up" and that is a good thing.

I feel that the results of this referendum are a little different, in that the arguments put forward by the Leave campaign were misrepresentation at best and downright lies at worst, so there is a lot more weight to those who dissent with the referendum's results.

So we have another referendum, but the losing side have learned from the original referendum that acting all whiny and butthurt because you don't like the result works. So they act all whiny and butthurt and tantrum enough to get a third referendum. But the losing side of that don't like the result, so they get all whiny and butthurt and demand a fourth referendum...

Referendum after referendum after referendum in perpetuity? That's one way of keeping us in the EU I guess...

 

[TheKnightWho]

So we have another referendum, but the losing side have learned from the original referendum that acting all whiny and butthurt because you don't like the result works. So they act all whiny and butthurt and tantrum enough to get a third referendum. But the losing side of that don't like the result, so they get all whiny and butthurt and demand a fourth referendum...

Referendum after referendum after referendum in perpetuity? That's one way of keeping us in the EU I guess...

Except where is the evidence that keeping us in the EU was bad? I'm certainly not seeing any. On the other hand, leaving...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So we have another referendum, but the losing side have learned from the original referendum that acting all whiny and butthurt because you don't like the result works. So they act all whiny and butthurt and tantrum enough to get a third referendum. But the losing side of that don't like the result, so they get all whiny and butthurt and demand a fourth referendum...

I voted to remain and I know many of acquaintances of the same mindset who voted as I did. A discussion with these people has not revealed any such wish for another referendum as the "Leave" side won. Do not tar all of those who voted "Remain" with the brush of petulance, as you appear to do in your posting above.

Unlike you, I have no need to make recourse to the use of words such as "whiny" and "butthurt" in any of my postings, as the English Language has more than adequate accepted wordings to give a clear and concise understanding in its definitions.

 

[Gutfright]

Except where is the evidence that keeping us in the EU was bad? I'm certainly not seeing any. On the other hand, leaving...

You couldn't possibly be advocating having referendum after referendum until we get a result that's convenient to you, and thenstopping? That would be absurdly hypocritical given your recent postings.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You couldn't possibly be advocating having referendum after referendum until we get a result that's convenient to you, and thenstopping? That would be absurdly hypocritical given your recent postings.

Are you denying the Leave campaign misled, lied and has gone back on promises?

 

[zuriblue]

Running a second referendum does at first glance look unrealistic right now. But if we look at Switzerland, they are in a fairly similar situation. They had a referendum in 2014 to restrict freedom of movement and there was a tiny majority (50.3% to 49.7%). The Swiss have been trying to negotiate with the EU for the last two years to maintain access to the single market and impose immigration quotas but the EU is not budging on freedom of movement. So it looks quite likely that the Swiss will have another referendum to avoid having to pull out of the single market.

The signatures have already been collected (you have to get 100000 signatures in 18 months) mainly by the SPS (Social Democrats) and the Greens but the centre-right parties (CVP, FDP) have also been collecting. It needs to be debated in Parliament so that the 2 houses can put forward a recommendation and possibly an alternative (known as a Gegenvorschlag) then it can be put to the vote. The initial MEI was passed with its backers, the SVP (the rechtspopulist Swiss Peoples Party), being somewhat untruthful about its effects and intended effects on the Bilaterals (to put it mildly, they lied through their teeth) and more recent SVP referenda have been soundly punished as a result.
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It doesn't if the person asked doesn't like the result.

Didn't Farage originally say that he wouldn't accept a 52-48 Remain result and wasn't the petition to overturn the result set up by a leave activist?

 

[Gutfright]

I voted to remain and I know many of acquaintances of the same mindset who voted as I did. A discussion with these people has not revealed any such wish for another referendum as the "Leave" side won. Do not tar all of those who voted "Remain" with the brush of petulance, as you appear to do in your posting above

Thank you. It's heartening to know that at least some remain voters respect the principle of democracy enough to want the government to follow the instructions the people have given them through the recent referendum.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Thank you. It's heartening to know that at least some remain voters respect the principle of democracy enough to want the government to follow the instructions the people have given them through the recent referendum.

Respecting the principle of democracy does not mean we should shut up and not explain how the public were misled. You seem to think that.

Democracy cannot function without proper discourse.

 

[Gutfright]

Respecting the principle of democracy does not mean we should shut up and not explain how the public were misled. You seem to think that.

Democracy cannot function without proper discourse.

We shouldn't have democracy because politicians lie and stupid people are allowed to vote?

You may be right about that, but it is by definition an anti-democratic argument.

 

[TheKnightWho]

We shouldn't have democracy because politicians lie and stupid people are allowed to vote?

You may be right about that, but it is by definition an anti-democratic argument.

What are people voting on if they're not voting on anything resembling the truth? How is what I'm saying anti-democratic?

 

[richw]

Are you denying the Leave campaign misled, lied and has gone back on promises?

Despite such allegations by several Facebook contacts, none have provided evidence of lies when challenged.

A look at their literature gives examples of what could be spent on, but doesn't say will be spent on. It didn't say give the NHS £350m, just fund them instead.

That doesn't mean give the NHS £350m. It could mean fund the NHS with £3.50 loose change from the bottom of the pot.

I voted remain by the way.
The longer it drags out the longer we have uncertainty and an unstable economy.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Despite such allegations by several Facebook contacts, none have provided evidence of lies when challenged.

A look at their literature gives examples of what could be spent on, but doesn't say will be spent on. It didn't say give the NHS £350m, just fund them instead.

That doesn't mean give the NHS £350m. It could mean fund the NHS with £3.50 loose change from the bottom of the pot.

I voted remain by the way.
The longer it drags out the longer we have uncertainty and an unstable economy.

One word: misled.

 

[Gutfright]

What are people voting on if they're not voting on anything resembling the truth? How is what I'm saying anti-democratic?

Yes, I completely forgot that the remain campaign were prohitited by law from correcting any false or misleading statements the leave side may have made. :roll:

Saying we should ignore the results of a democratic vote because you think the electorate are stupid is patronising and very anti-democratic.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Yes, I completely forgot that the remain campaign were prohitited by law from correcting any false or misleading statements the leave side may have made. :roll:

Saying we should ignore the results of a democratic vote because you think the electorate are stupid is patronising and very anti-democratic.

You're not engaging with the point. Democracy is predicated on honesty and information - the Leave campaign had neither.

Pretending that it's all about the vote and nothing more is anti-democratic, because it ignores (and is contemptuous towards) discourse, which is what made this country the liberal democracy that it is.

Saying that we should do what the non-binding referendum dictates come what may, despite the fact many voted Leave based on false information or false premises is simply opportunistic.

 

[Gutfright]

You're not engaging with the point. Democracy is predicated on honesty and information - the Leave campaign had neither.

Pretending that it's all about the vote and nothing more is anti-democratic, because it ignores (and is contemptuous towards) discourse, which is what made this country the liberal democracy that it is.

Er, you do realise that I was being sarcastic when I said that the remain side were banned from speaking, don't you?

There was discourse. The leave side made their case, the remain side made theirs. Then on the 23rd of June, the people made up their mind and decided to leave by a majority of 52-48%.

It would be anti-democratic to ignore that result.

 

[Steveman]

One word: misled.

Do you think there is a possibility you may make a recovery from your almighty childish sulk one-day or could it actually be terminal.

 

[richw]

One word: misled.

I can't see how. I found it clear enough to make me vote the other way.
What I have found is a lot of ignorance from the outers. Not understanding consequences etc.
Nobody in out had a mandate to implement anything they said, hence everything was might, could etc.

However one area they did mislead in, was the use of company logos.
I work for a large multinational company, who threatened legal action against out for using their logos despite the business being in favour of remain.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Do you think there is a possibility you may make a recovery from your almighty childish sulk one-day or could it actually be terminal.

You whined and whined and whined for years. Hypocrisy seems to be your favourite hobby.

On the other hand, there is a very real fallout of this vote that is set to affect millions of people, but you can dismiss that as a "sulk" because it won't affect you. Pathetic.
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I can't see how. I found it clear enough to make me vote the other way.
What I have found is a lot of ignorance from the outers. Not understanding consequences etc.
Nobody in out had a mandate to implement anything they said, hence everything was might, could etc.

However one area they did mislead in, was the use of company logos.
I work for a large multinational company, who threatened legal action against out for using their logos despite the business being in favour of remain.

But how do you think people became ignorant?

 

[richw]

But how do you think people became ignorant?

Laziness, not bothering to research themselves, and instead jumping on bandwagons.
Not getting both sides of the debate
Down here there were loads of exit campaigners, but never saw a single remain campaigner. I spoke with the campaigners I saw so had lots of 1 to 1 info about leaving but nothing on remaining. I spent hours reading the Internet to know the way I wanted to go. If people can't be bothered to research their vote in such an important referendum we've no hope.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Laziness, not bothering to research themselves, and instead jumping on bandwagons.
Not getting both sides of the debate
Down here there were loads of exit campaigners, but never saw a single remain campaigner. I spoke with the campaigners I saw so had lots of 1 to 1 info about leaving but nothing on remaining. I spent hours reading the Internet to know the way I wanted to go. If people can't be bothered to research their vote in such an important referendum we've no hope.

You don't think it could have been down to a media campaign and a Leave campaign that systematically misled?

Immigration was one of the biggest factors for wanting to leave, yet the areas with the least immigrants were the ones that had the highest percentage wanting out. It's the fear of immigration, not immigration itself, that created the desire to leave, and that fear has to have come from somewhere.

 

[richw]

You don't think it could have been down to a media campaign and a Leave campaign that systematically misled?

Immigration was one of the biggest factors for wanting to leave, yet the areas with the least immigrants were the ones that had the highest percentage wanting out. It's the fear of immigration, not immigration itself, that created the desire to leave, and that fear has to have come from somewhere.

For anyone with the smallest bit of sense immigration would have had no influence. 2/3 of immigrants come from outside of the EU so has no bearing being in the EU or not.

 

[TheKnightWho]

For anyone with the smallest bit of sense immigration would have had no influence. 2/3 of immigrants come from outside of the EU so has no bearing being in the EU or not.

But it's not about what is the case - it's about what people think is the case. When you have campaign material like this, what do you expect the effect was?