EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[507021]

yes I do realise that QI is a comedy quiz show. I am fully aware that it is a show based on facts.

Back to the war... you are aware that for a war to be over there has to be a peace treaty signed? and you are also aware that the US, UK, Russia France AND Germany had to sign said treaty? did that happen in 1945? no... it did not happen until after the re-unification of Germany in 1990... as there were no peace treaties signed the war was still technically in existence. And ok so there was little warfare in Europe but the US and Russia fought many proxy wars across the globe during the cold war.... so in fact the world war was still continuing on more than a technicality really

Sorry, but the Paris Peace Treaties were signed in 1947.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Sorry, but the Paris Peace Treaties were signed in 1947.

from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification
The 1945 Potsdam Agreement had specified that a full peace treaty concluding World War II, including the exact delimitation of Germany's postwar boundaries, required to be "accepted by the Government of Germany when a government adequate for the purpose is established." The Federal Republic had always maintained that no such government could be said to have been established until East and West Germany had been united within a free democratic state; but in 1990 a range of opinions continued to be maintained over whether a unified West Germany, East Germany and Berlin could be said to represent "Germany as a whole" for this purpose. The key question was whether a Germany that remained bounded to the east by the Oder–Neisse line could act as a "united Germany" in signing the peace treaty without qualification. Under the "Two Plus Four Treaty" both the Federal Republic and the Democratic Republic committed themselves and their unified continuation to the principle that their joint pre-1990 boundaries constituted the entire territory that could be claimed by a Government of Germany, and hence that there were no further lands outside those boundaries that were parts of Germany as a whole.

and

Germany was officially reunited at 00:00 CEST on 3 October 1990. East Germany joined the Federal Republic as the five Länder (states) of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia. These states were the five original states of East Germany, but were abolished in 1952 in favour of a centralised system. As part of the 18 May treaty, the five East German states were reconstituted on 23 August. At the same time, East and West Berlin reunited into one city, which became a city-state along the lines of the existing city-states of Bremen and Hamburg. Berlin was still formally under Allied occupation (that would only be terminated later, as a result of the provisions of the Two Plus Four Treaty), but the city's administrative merger and inclusion in the Federal Republic of Germany, effective on 3 October 1990, had been greenlighted by the Allies, and were formally approved in a meeting of the Allied Control Council on 2 October 1990.

Get it now? The peace treaty wasn't signed by ALL parties until 1990

 

[birchesgreen]

Is that why so many Brexiters think they lived through the war even though they're in their 50s?

 

[507021]

from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reunification
The 1945 Potsdam Agreement had specified that a full peace treaty concluding World War II, including the exact delimitation of Germany's postwar boundaries, required to be "accepted by the Government of Germany when a government adequate for the purpose is established." The Federal Republic had always maintained that no such government could be said to have been established until East and West Germany had been united within a free democratic state; but in 1990 a range of opinions continued to be maintained over whether a unified West Germany, East Germany and Berlin could be said to represent "Germany as a whole" for this purpose. The key question was whether a Germany that remained bounded to the east by the Oder–Neisse line could act as a "united Germany" in signing the peace treaty without qualification. Under the "Two Plus Four Treaty" both the Federal Republic and the Democratic Republic committed themselves and their unified continuation to the principle that their joint pre-1990 boundaries constituted the entire territory that could be claimed by a Government of Germany, and hence that there were no further lands outside those boundaries that were parts of Germany as a whole.

and

Germany was officially reunited at 00:00 CEST on 3 October 1990. East Germany joined the Federal Republic as the five Länder (states) of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia. These states were the five original states of East Germany, but were abolished in 1952 in favour of a centralised system. As part of the 18 May treaty, the five East German states were reconstituted on 23 August. At the same time, East and West Berlin reunited into one city, which became a city-state along the lines of the existing city-states of Bremen and Hamburg. Berlin was still formally under Allied occupation (that would only be terminated later, as a result of the provisions of the Two Plus Four Treaty), but the city's administrative merger and inclusion in the Federal Republic of Germany, effective on 3 October 1990, had been greenlighted by the Allies, and were formally approved in a meeting of the Allied Control Council on 2 October 1990.

Get it now? The peace treaty wasn't signed by ALL parties until 1990

These quotes do not prove your argument World War II ended in 1990.

 

[fowler9]

yes I do realise that QI is a comedy quiz show. I am fully aware that it is a show based on facts.

Back to the war... you are aware that for a war to be over there has to be a peace treaty signed? and you are also aware that the US, UK, Russia France AND Germany had to sign said treaty? did that happen in 1945? no... it did not happen until after the re-unification of Germany in 1990... as there were no peace treaties signed the war was still technically in existence. And ok so there was little warfare in Europe but the US and Russia fought many proxy wars across the globe during the cold war.... so in fact the world war was still continuing on more than a technicality really

Alright, the peace treaty wasn't signed until 1990 but prior to that we had already jointly developed the Tornado with Germany and had started developing the Eurofighter. Airbus was a well established company. Let's not pretend that until 1990 peace was a close run thing. Those are just a few examples. It does seem to be very recently that Brexiters have been going hell for leather with the WW2 stuff though.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It does seem to be very recently that Brexiters have been going hell for leather with the WW2 stuff though.

what I find odd is how the slightest merest hint of mentioning the war and the Remainers are like a dog with a bone... they just won't let it go... trying to make the Brexiteers look rabid... oddly I think it has the opposite effect... remember all this vitriol has been due to me mentioning the war in a post about remembering the lessons of history... and what's happened? I've had a pack of remainers trying to tear my argument to shreds... mainly with just snide comments or bald "your wrong".... still in this PC world it's only right and proper to shut down any argument or debate that dares to question or challenge your view of the world

 

[birchesgreen]

what I find odd is how the slightest merest hint of mentioning the war and the Remainers are like a dog with a bone... they just won't let it go... trying to make the Brexiteers look rabid... oddly I think it has the opposite effect... remember all this vitriol has been due to me mentioning the war in a post about remembering the lessons of history... and what's happened? I've had a pack of remainers trying to tear my argument to shreds... mainly with just snide comments or bald "your wrong".... still in this PC world it's only right and proper to shut down any argument or debate that dares to question or challenge your view of the world

Beyond parody

 

[fowler9]

what I find odd is how the slightest merest hint of mentioning the war and the Remainers are like a dog with a bone... they just won't let it go... trying to make the Brexiteers look rabid... oddly I think it has the opposite effect... remember all this vitriol has been due to me mentioning the war in a post about remembering the lessons of history... and what's happened? I've had a pack of remainers trying to tear my argument to shreds... mainly with just snide comments or bald "your wrong".... still in this PC world it's only right and proper to shut down any argument or debate that dares to question or challenge your view of the world

Mate at least one leaver on here has compared the EU to the third reich. That is one too many.

 

[507021]

what I find odd is how the slightest merest hint of mentioning the war and the Remainers are like a dog with a bone... they just won't let it go... trying to make the Brexiteers look rabid... oddly I think it has the opposite effect... remember all this vitriol has been due to me mentioning the war in a post about remembering the lessons of history... and what's happened? I've had a pack of remainers trying to tear my argument to shreds... mainly with just snide comments or bald "your wrong".... still in this PC world it's only right and proper to shut down any argument or debate that dares to question or challenge your view of the world

You've been arguing World War II didn't end until 1990, and when I told you it ended in 1945 (which it did) you told me I was wrong.

 

[EM2]

from Wikipedia:

I thought 'citing wikipedia as a primary source really is like quoting "the man down the pub" '?
www.railforums.co.uk/threads/boris-johnson-is-a-liability.168085/page-21#post-3640141

 

[AlterEgo]

Professional hole digger at work.

This thread’s like a Dalí painting.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Mate at least one leaver on here has compared the EU to the third reich. That is one too many.

I think it's about time the rabid element on both sides had the oxygen of publicity removed from them... it should've happened a week after the referendum... the biggest problem we have really had is weak and divided government... along with a certain EU negotiator taking great delight in giving our negotiators the "Thatcher" treatment....

I admit that I have always been anti-Europe since Maastricht. I have absolutely no problem with having a common market with standardised rules for trading. What I object to pure and simple is the moves towards a political union which would, in my belief, mean that eventually we would be forced to give up our sovereignty maybe not now or 10 yrs... but think of this... what situation could we be facing in 20 yrs if having opted out of the Euro, the Euroarmy and all the other integrations...but getting our economy ever more closely entwined with Europe... then comes the day that the 27 decide that the EU will be one nation and we are given an ultimatum of "integrate or get out"....if you think we're in a bad situation now remember that MOST leavers were voting because they thought it the best option for preserving our freedoms

 

[AM9]

This thread has recently turned a corner to become a real hoot. Thank you for all the laughs Teflon Lettuce. Trump might ask you for some campaign one-liners.
I daren't think that you actually believe all of this as it really is quite frightening that some of the leavers in positions of power that you follow could get the UK in a very dangerous political position.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

This thread has recently turned a corner to become a real hoot. Thank you for all the laughs Teflon Lettuce. Trump might ask you for some campaign one-liners.
I daren't think that you actually believe all of this as it really is quite frightening that some of the leavers in positions of power that you follow could get the UK in a very dangerous political position.

that's the point... I don't follow anyone. I think for myself... ok so you might not agree with the conclusions I draw... so what? it's your "anyone who dares to disagree with me is a nutcase" viewpoint is tbh just the sort of fascist dogmatism that I am against on all levels...

 

[birchesgreen]

OK you put ridiculous statements which people disagree with and therefore we are fascists, ok i see

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

OK you put ridiculous statements which people disagree with and therefore we are fascists, ok i see

I haven't... all I have done is make comparisons, use a reading of history and state a few verifiable facts... just because you don't agree with what I say does not make my opinion ridiculous... and yes anyone saying that someone of a different viewpoint should be ridiculed is displaying fascist behaviour...

 

[bramling]

This thread has recently turned a corner to become a real hoot. Thank you for all the laughs Teflon Lettuce. Trump might ask you for some campaign one-liners.
I daren't think that you actually believe all of this as it really is quite frightening that some of the leavers in positions of power that you follow could get the UK in a very dangerous political position.

FWIW I’m not losing any sleep over the prospect of WW3. *However* equally I don’t think the lessons of history should be forgotten, and it’s naive to believe that such a conflict couldn’t happen in this day and age. Indeed things did seem like they were starting to escalate uncomfortably over North Korea in the last year or so, but have thankfully appeared to calm down since.

The idea of WW2 ending in the 80s is a new one on me though. Surely the Cold War was primarily a conflict between the USSR and USA, the division of Germany being a side-issue?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The idea of WW2 ending in the 80s is a new one on me though. Surely the Cold War was primarily a conflict between the USSR and USA, the division of Germany being a side-issue?

as I said in my original post on the matter... the end of a war is technically not over until all sides have signed the treaty... as Germany was divided in 2 and the 2 parts ended up on opposite "sides" Germany was unable to sign the treaty ergo the war was technically still a war, just one with a permanent ceasefire... also as I argued, because the treaty wasn't fully signed it can be said that the cold war was an extension of WW2 just that the warring alliances had changed. The same could be said of all the proxy conflicts waged by the USA and USSR... and the outright invasions both sides were guilty of....

 

[Darandio]

Some good stuffing here today. We'll be forced to join an EU army, Napoleon, Hitler etc. Which side was project fear again? Leave it remain?

And seemingly all from an image of a brigade of blue masked gimps. Could only happen here.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

And seemingly all from an image of a brigade of blue masked gimps. Could only happen here.

eh? what?

 

[EM2]

as I said in my original post on the matter... the end of a war is technically not over until all sides have signed the treaty...

Is that an answer that's defined anywhere?
And if you believe it to be true, then I'm afraid that for you WW2 continues to this day, as there has not been a treaty signed between Russia and Japan, because of a dispute over the Kuril Islands.

 

[fowler9]

eh? what?

Think that was something Jonny posted recently. I won't be scrolling back to find it. The description does accurately describe it though.

 

[fowler9]

Some of the things on here recently comparing the EU to historical tyrants are frankly somewhere between embarrassing and disturbing. Comparing remainers to Nazi appeasers is frankly ridiculous and an insult to everyone who died in WW2.

 

[AM9]

Some of the things on here recently comparing the EU to historical tyrants are frankly somewhere between embarrassing and disturbing. Comparing remainers to Nazi appeasers is frankly ridiculous and an insult to everyone who died in WW2.

These days it's 'any port in a storm' for leavers.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

These days it's 'any port in a storm' for leavers.

at least us leavers can form an argument for our beliefs, unlike remainers who's idea of rational debate is to just make snide comments about other people's viewpoints. How about, instead of snide comments a few remainers start putting forward arguments against the viewpoints stated... or better still..... why not try engaging with the process of Brexit and try and get the best deal possible instead of sniping from the sidelines?

 

[507021]

why not try engaging with the process of Brexit and try and get the best deal possible instead of sniping from the sidelines?

Why should we engage with a process we didn't vote for?

instead of sniping from the sidelines?

That's all the Brexiteer Tory MPs have been doing.

 

[fowler9]

at least us leavers can form an argument for our beliefs, unlike remainers who's idea of rational debate is to just make snide comments about other people's viewpoints. How about, instead of snide comments a few remainers start putting forward arguments against the viewpoints stated... or better still..... why not try engaging with the process of Brexit and try and get the best deal possible instead of sniping from the sidelines?

I really cannot comprehend where to start putting forward arguments that the EU isn't like the third reich. I'll admit it is way beyond me. It seems obvious. As for engaging with Brexit, it is like asking me to get behind Everton or Man U. I don't support it and cannot get behind it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Why should we engage with a process we didn't vote for?

Er well let me see how about on a purely selfish level how about because the outcome of the process will affect your life as much as mine... for better or worse.

As I've said time and again, my motive for voting leave was to secure MY country's sovereignty... what I did not expect was the complete and utter farce that has been our government since that day. It's not the vote to leave that has left the country in a mess with a deal that's not worth the half a tree each copy takes to print.. it's this incompetent shower of a government that is to blame... seriously if this had been put forward as a story for Yes Minister then it would've been vetoed as too implausible to be funny.... which is a real worry that for the last 3 yrs we've had a government/ parliament that's only fit for a comedy script

 

[507021]

Er well let me see how about on a purely selfish level how about because the outcome of the process will affect your life as much as mine... for better or worse.

As I've said time and again, my motive for voting leave was to secure MY country's sovereignty... what I did not expect was the complete and utter farce that has been our government since that day. It's not the vote to leave that has left the country in a mess with a deal that's not worth the half a tree each copy takes to print.. it's this incompetent shower of a government that is to blame... seriously if this had been put forward as a story for Yes Minister then it would've been vetoed as too implausible to be funny.... which is a real worry that for the last 3 yrs we've had a government/ parliament that's only fit for a comedy script

Whether you like it or not, I will not engage with a process I didn't vote for.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I really cannot comprehend where to start putting forward arguments that the EU isn't like the third reich. I'll admit it is way beyond me. It seems obvious. As for engaging with Brexit, it is like asking me to get behind Everton or Man U. I don't support it and cannot get behind it.

the problem is you seem to miss the point... I'm not saying that the EU is like the 3rd Reich... but what I have tried to do, in answer to what would happen if the 27 had a single united army, is look to history to see what lessons can be learned from it... ok so for 50 yrs it might be a "benelovent" and "enlightened" army... but history shows that when one european entity gets too overbearing it usually leads to war... and also, despite how enlightened we all like to think we are today it might be worth remembering how quickly Germany decended from being an enlightened democracy into the most evil dictatorship ever known on this planet... who's to say that history wouldn't repeat itself and throw up another despot... and imagine what they could do with the starting point of 27 countries worth of armies.

As to engaging... one thing I really have not seen anywhere is remainers saying "ok I don't agree with leaving, but I accept the will of the people so this is what I would want as a bare minimum in the deal.