Eurostar’s shrinking ambitions

[crablab]

Whole process took a couple of minutes despite large numbers queuing.

The problem is the cumulative effect of "a couple of minutes" on several trainloads.

This allows you to add your biometric passport data onto an app along with your travel information beforehand.

This sounds interesting! I would have been interested to try it out if it didn't require me to load my passport data into an app...

I'm not sure why the exit checks can't be automated as they are at (for example) Heathrow. Is it just because there's no Advance Passenger Information?

(Incidentally, I suppose there's an API API somewhere. Someone got a good laugh out of that I bet )

 

[XAM2175]

Last Monday when I left UK on Eurostar my passport was scanned by a person in a booth, I then proceeded to e gate which let me through, a French Official then stamped my passport "in to France".....even though I had not yet boarded the train. Whole process took a couple of minutes despite large numbers queuing.

Yes, this is the normal process.

I'm not sure why the exit checks can't be automated as they are at (for example) Heathrow. Is it just because there's no Advance Passenger Information?

Correct.

 

[modernrail]

For those that voted against Brexit, it is one of the clear downsides playing out. For those that voted for, you this is not the sort of thing that was meant to happen according to the promoters of the cause.

This is NOT meant to be a debate about whether it was the right decision, but how is it solved. We have
- a valuable asset running under capacity,
- not fulfilling its potential,
- reducing and not improving direct links to important trading partners,
- no doubt reversing what was a clear example of success in modal shift, causing increased numbers of people to fly creating lots more carbon,
- reducing the opportunity for people in the UK to travel affordably
- causing reduced financial stability to the operator
- removing direct access to the asset once enjoyed by South eastern business population near the non-London stations
- reducing track access charges to the owner of HS1

I would also say, it should not be beyond anybody to fix it. If this is our level of ambition and confidence in the future of this arrangement…..

So… what are the solutions to solve this at a cost no more than pre-Brexit arrangements except perhaps a modest type of cost that is incurred by business in any case is the normal course of business.

 

[43066]

How has “capacity” been reduced? The same trains are being used on the same routes. I didn’t realise there had been any reduction in paths available etc. as a result of Brexit.

If you mean increased passport checks, perhaps Eurostar will need to invest in better facilities at St Pancras and Paris Nord.

 

[Austriantrain]

How has “capacity” been reduced? The same trains are being used on the same routes. I didn’t realise there had been any reduction in paths available etc. as a result of Brexit.

If you mean increased passport checks, perhaps Eurostar will need to invest in better facilities at St Pancras and Paris Nord.

The issue is well known: reduced capacity comes from the need for increased checks at the juxtaposed controls - reducing througput. Especially at St Pancras, it means that not all the seats can be sold.

The only realistic measures, as you say, are investments at St Pancras and Paris Nord, as well as technical improvements related to the new control mechanisms that are coming (ETIAS etc).

On the UK side, reopening Ebbsfleet and Ashford would help too, as well as maybe finally opening Stratford Intl for Eurostar (which would especially help to reduce loads at St Pancras).

And from there on onwards: finally increase to number of trains running, improve guaranteed connections at Lille and Brussels, and Greater London could claim to have decent rail connections to the continent.

Eurostar being basically run by SNCF, an utterly useless state operator, will unfortunately not help. If they don’t change their perspective or are forced to by competition, all the above will not help.

 

[modernrail]

So why is that investment not forthcoming from Government bearing in mind it negotiated the form of Brexit deal that requires greater border capacity?

At St P the answer of how to create the physical capacity seems obvious. Make the circulation concourse area infront of the current entrance into the security area into part of the Eurostar facility rather than it being part of the general station.

So it needs that modification and then up staffing of the border. Surely a very obvious predictable cost of Brexit that should be paid by the Government as a consequence of its negotiating position than by the station or Eurostar operator?

Why should the French or the operator pay for increased capacity at either end? They have all made their investments based on a position that the UK Government went on to change. Governments don’t encourage investment unless they provide stable investment conditions and where they change a retrospective change, they need to deal with the consequences.

Same at Dover and Calais. Surely the one most single obvious set of investments the Gov would need to account for in negotiating a Brexit that involved leaving the single market is increased border capacity at major border points.

 

[duncanp]

One of the stated purposes of the EES and ETIAS schemes is to streamline the process of entry into the Schengen area.

So once both schemes are up and running, the immigration controls at St Pancras should be much quicker than at present, quite probably comparable with what existed before Brexit.

It is notable though that the French government recognises that the introduction of EES and ETIAS will cause some issues, which is why they want to delay things until after the Paris Olympics.

Perhaps they should copy what happened in Canada, where the ETA (similar to ESTA and ETIAS) was made optional for about 9 months before it became compulsory.

That way travellers could get used to the fact that the new system was coming, with those who fulfil the requirements being processed quicker.

Providing biometric information in advance of travel, via an app or a website, would certainly help to speed processing at the border, and is a practical step which can and should be implemented.

 

[modernrail]

One of the stated purposes of the EES and ETIAS schemes is to streamline the process of entry into the Schengen area.

So once both schemes are up and running, the immigration controls at St Pancras should be much quicker than at present, quite probably comparable with what existed before Brexit.

It is notable though that the French government recognises that the introduction of EES and ETIAS will cause some issues, which is why they want to delay things until after the Paris Olympics.

Perhaps they should copy what happened in Canada, where the ETA (similar to ESTA and ETIAS) was made optional for about 9 months before it became compulsory.

That way travellers could get used to the fact that the new system was coming, with those who fulfil the requirements being processed quicker.

Providing biometric information in advance of travel, via an app or a website, would certainly help to speed processing at the border, and is a practical step which can and should be implemented.

Yes but that is 2 years away and we should not be waiting for an EU project to sort a challenge of our making out. Surely then the Gov needs to fund short term increased border provision until the EU system comes in, beds in and starts providing efficiencies.

We created the need to arise, we take responsibility for our borders being efficient in the context of the change.

As I say, the most predictable of all the consequences so surely a nation wanting to go forward in a positive manner needs to be grabbing the bull by the horns and getting on with it.

If this wasn’t game planned when deciding to leave the single market, that’s ridiculous but we are where are, so get it fixed.

 

[43066]

So why is that investment not forthcoming from Government bearing in mind it negotiated the form of Brexit deal that requires greater border capacity?

At St P the answer of how to create the physical capacity seems obvious. Make the circulation concourse area infront of the current entrance into the security area into part of the Eurostar facility rather than it being part of the general station.

So it needs that modification and then up staffing of the border. Surely a very obvious predictable cost of Brexit that should be paid by the Government as a consequence of its negotiating position than by the station or Eurostar operator?

Why should the French or the operator pay for increased capacity at either end? They have all made their investments based on a position that the UK Government went on to change. Governments don’t encourage investment unless they provide stable investment conditions and where they change a retrospective change, they need to deal with the consequences.

Same at Dover and Calais. Surely the one most single obvious set of investments the Gov would need to account for in negotiating a Brexit that involved leaving the single market is increased border capacity at major border points.

Why on earth should the UK government (by which you mean UK taxpayer) spend money on behalf of Eurostar? If they need to make changes they can pay for it themselves. They don’t seem to be short of passengers despite the (incorrect) suggestion that capacity has been reduced.

I suspect this thread is really just an anti Brexit rant. It’s happened, complaining won’t change it, and businesses just need to get on with it.

 

[williamn]

Why on earth should the UK government (by which you mean UK taxpayer) spend money on behalf of Eurostar? If they need to make changes they can pay for it themselves. They don’t seem to be short of passengers despite the (incorrect) suggestion that capacity has been reduced.

I suspect this thread is really just an anti Brexit rant. It’s happened, complaining won’t change it, and businesses just need to get on with it.

I don't think they control how many border staff are assigned to them, that's down to the Border Force / Government.
I don't see why the government shouldn't support Eurostar - it subsidises airlines, and supported them during the pandemic too (unlike Eurostar which almost went bust).

 

[Benjwri]

I don't see why the government shouldn't support Eurostar - it subsidises airlines, and supported them during the pandemic too (unlike Eurostar which almost went bust).

The government couldn’t subsidise because of complicated legalities about supporting a foreign company. (Whereas the airlines it supported were based in the UK), although Doesn’t excuse not helping now

 

[Peterthegreat]

The government couldn’t subsidise because of complicated legalities about supporting a foreign company. (Whereas the airlines it supported were based in the UK), although Doesn’t excuse not helping now

Eurostar is (currently) a UK company.

 

[Benjwri]

Eurostar is (currently) a UK company.

Yeah that was badly phrased, the issue was with propping up a company owned largely by a foreign government (The French Government under SNCF)

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yeah that was badly phrased, the issue was with propping up a company owned largely by a foreign government (The French Government under SNCF)

Why should that make a difference? Thousands of "British" companies are owned by foreign investors.
I know what you mean but it is totally illogical.

 

[Chester1]

Yes but that is 2 years away and we should not be waiting for an EU project to sort a challenge of our making out. Surely then the Gov needs to fund short term increased border provision until the EU system comes in, beds in and starts providing efficiencies.

We created the need to arise, we take responsibility for our borders being efficient in the context of the change.

As I say, the most predictable of all the consequences so surely a nation wanting to go forward in a positive manner needs to be grabbing the bull by the horns and getting on with it.

If this wasn’t game planned when deciding to leave the single market, that’s ridiculous but we are where are, so get it fixed.

ETIAS and EES is next year not 2 years away. UK ETA launches this October for Qataris only. After that it will be rolled out in groups of nationalities from February next year. Any infrastructure solution would be for a short term problem. The primary problem with boosting border control capacity at St Pancras in the mean time is space. Its not worth throwing serious money at a problem that isn't huge and will be resolved once we and the EU have rolled out our new border systems.

The combined effect of ETIAS, EES and UK ETA will make border controls at St Pancras faster than before Brexit. There are plenty of third country citizens that have always required stamps and checks and some of them are quite common users of Eurostar e.g. Americans. These will mostly disappear. After first use of the new system entry into EU at St Pancras will be comparable for Brits with pre brexit journeys (apart from first time using a new passport). The problem comes with enrolling Brits when nobody has used the system before. The same will be true at continental end with UK ETA but UK decision to roll out in groups of nationalities rather than a big bang should help. Once most Brits are on the systems the problems at St Pancras caused by enrolling Brits should be out weighed by faster processing of the other 60 nationalities that will use ETIAS and EES.

Its true that if we had stayed in the EU we wouldn't need to use ETIAS and EES but how many British Eurostar passengers in 2026 or 2027 won't be on the system already? 20, 30 per train? I am not sure either the EU or UK governments would be interested in exempting each others citizens because there are security benefits for both sides having biometric checks for travellers, as frustrating as they are for passengers and operators.

 

[AdamWW]

They don’t seem to be short of passengers despite the (incorrect) suggestion that capacity has been reduced.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/

LONDON, Sept 28 (Reuters) - Eurostar's peak capacity in London has fallen by 30% due to post-Brexit checks on travellers using the high-speed rail link between Britain and mainland Europe, the train operator's boss has said.

"It is only the fact that Eurostar has capacity-limited trains and significantly reduced its timetable from 2019 levels, that we are not seeing daily queues in the centre of London similar to those experienced in the Channel ports," he said.

Or have things changed dramatically since last September?

Edited to add:
Perhaps not. I've just read the newspaper article that started this thread and it says:

It has also been forced to run services with some seats empty because new Brexit border bureaucracy has restricted its ability to process passengers through passport control fast enough to fill trains.

Its true that if we had stayed in the EU we wouldn't need to use ETIAS and EES but how many British Eurostar passengers in 2026 or 2027 won't be on the system already? 20, 30 per train? I am not sure either the EU or UK governments would be interested in exempting each others citizens because there are security benefits for both sides having biometric checks for travellers, as frustrating as they are for passengers and operators.

Does ETIAS mean they won't be able to ask for the purpose of visiting France etc. as they are currently entitled to? I haven't travelled out on Eurostar since Brexit but when travelling by air/ferry I've been asked why I'm visiting, where I'm staying and for how long and how I'm returning to the UK...Q

 

[43066]

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/



Or have things changed dramatically since last September?

Edited to add:
Perhaps not. I've just read the newspaper article that started this thread and it says:





Does ETIAS mean they won't be able to ask for the purpose of visiting France etc. as they are currently entitled to? I haven't travelled out on Eurostar since Brexit but when travelling by air/ferry I've been asked why I'm visiting, where I'm staying and for how long and how I'm returning to the UK...Q

You don’t witness the queues to use their services as closely as I do! It’s of no matter. They can Jack up their prices to recoup any shortfall in revenue, as they seem to be doing. Or they can simply go bust!

What exactly is the point of this thread, other then to rant about Brexit?!

I haven't travelled out on Eurostar since Brexit but when travelling by air/ferry I've been asked why I'm visiting, where I'm staying and for how long and how I'm returning to the UK...Q

Like most national borders in the world, then. It seems a reasonable enough question to me.

What’s your objection to being asked, exactly?

 

[modernrail]

You don’t witness the queues to use their services as closely as I do! It’s of no matter. They can Jack up their prices to recoup any shortfall in revenue, as they seem to be doing. Or they can simply go bust!

What exactly is the point of this thread, other then to rant about Brexit?!



Like most national borders in the world, then. It seems a reasonable enough question to me.

What’s your objection to being asked, exactly?

People are not ranting about Brexit, the question is about what happens now Brexit has happened.

The UK Goverment controls the border and allocates border resources. A very obvious consequence of choosing a form of Brexit that included leaving the single market was the need to beef up the borders to maintain capacity and efficiency. In addition, it was also going to be the case when leaving the single market that extra physical border facilities would be required that the Government should pay for as is not the Port of Dover or Holyhead or Eurostar(relatively small companies) that have changed the game. It doesn’t matter whether you believe Brexit was a good idea or not. It is just a consequence that needs to be dealt with - ideally without drama.

That has not happened. Why has is not happened is the question.

I have read some things that say the new EU ETIAS will help, others that it will do the opposite. It’s not the point though, it is our border with our nearest physical neighbours and so we should be leading on implementing the extra border capacity required for a longer per passenger processing time.

 

[Chester1]

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/



Or have things changed dramatically since last September?

Edited to add:
Perhaps not. I've just read the newspaper article that started this thread and it says:





Does ETIAS mean they won't be able to ask for the purpose of visiting France etc. as they are currently entitled to? I haven't travelled out on Eurostar since Brexit but when travelling by air/ferry I've been asked why I'm visiting, where I'm staying and for how long and how I'm returning to the UK...Q

I am not sure if it will be routinely asked. There are two big time savers though. Some EU countries are allowing Brits to use e gates again but non EU residents currently need their passport stamping and this will no longer be the case. In countries that are not allowing Brits to use e gates e.g. France, border staff will no longer need to look at passport stamps manually to check you are not breaking the 90 in 180 day maximum stay rule. EES will calculate how many days you have been in EU automatically. Roughly 60 third country nationalities don't need visas to enter the EU and UK (the lists of countries vary slightly). These visitors will no longer need stamps or the stamp dates being checked. This doesn't effect Ryanair flights from Stansted to the costas much but its a sizable number of Eurostar passengers, especially for London - Paris.

ETIAS and EES launch is likely to be a disaster. This is why it keeps getting delayed and why President Macron is pressuring the EU to launch it after the Paris Olympics. UK ETA should be a bit smoother because of the phased approach. Most of the teething problems should be dealt with while its just being used by citizens of selected middle eastern countries. I think EU and EEA citizens will be enrolled onto it last and it will have to be in one go because UK can't discriminate between citizens of EU. However, if citizens of 60 countries are already using it and there is a decent gap between the last group of countries and EU/EEA citizens then problems should be managable.

That has not happened. Why has is not happened is the question.

I have read some things that say the new EU ETIAS will help, others that it will do the opposite. It’s not the point though, it is our border with our nearest physical neighbours and so we should be leading on implementing the extra border capacity required for a longer per passenger processing time.

Its not happened because the costs of doing something are huge and its a short term problem.

The media coverage I have seen suggests it will make things worse initally and I totally agree with this. I haven't seen news reports suggesting its going to make things worse long term. It would be some what odd if switching to electronic records was slower than stamping paper!

 

[modernrail]

I am not sure if it will be routinely asked. There are two big time savers though. Some EU countries are allowing Brits to use e gates again but non EU residents currently need their passport stamping and this will no longer be the case. In countries that are not allowing Brits to use e gates e.g. France, border staff will no longer need to look at passport stamps manually to check you are not breaking the 90 in 180 day maximum stay rule. EES will calculate how many days you have been in EU automatically. Roughly 60 third country nationalities don't need visas to enter the EU and UK (the lists of countries vary slightly). These visitors will no longer need stamps or the stamp dates being checked. This doesn't effect Ryanair flights from Stansted to the costas much but its a sizable number of Eurostar passengers, especially for London - Paris.

ETIAS and EES launch is likely to be a disaster. This is why it keeps getting delayed and why President Macron is pressuring the EU to launch it after the Paris Olympics. UK ETA should be a bit smoother because of the phased approach. Most of the teething problems should be dealt with while its just being used by citizens of selected middle eastern countries. I think EU and EEA citizens will be enrolled onto it last and it will have to be in one go because UK can't discriminate between citizens of EU. However, if citizens of 60 countries are already using it and there is a decent gap between the last group of countries and EU/EEA citizens then problems should be managable.



Its not happened because the costs of doing something are huge and its a short term problem.

The media coverage I have seen suggests it will make things worse initally and I totally agree with this. I haven't seen news reports suggesting its going to make things worse long term. It would be some what odd if switching to electronic records was slower than stamping paper!

It is hardly short term. It has been going on for years already and it likely to be going on for years yet. The new EU system is also not within our control and so we should be more proactive about ensuring capacity is provided rather than relying on others.

The costs are the costs, they are just a cost of Brexit that just needs dealing with. In the scheme of things, they are not substantial. The costs of increased friction were always going to have to be dealt with. The Government has just chosen to let users of the border suck up the extra costs through delay and higher fares rather than acting like a Government should and ensuring a fit for purpose border.

 

[Chester1]

It is hardly short term. It has been going on for years already and it likely to be going on for years yet. The new EU system is also not within our control and so we should be more proactive about ensuring capacity is provided rather than relying on others.

The costs are the costs, they are just a cost of Brexit that just needs dealing with. In the scheme of things, they are not substantial. The costs of increased friction were always going to have to be dealt with. The Government has just chosen to let users of the border suck up the extra costs through delay and higher fares rather than acting like a Government should and ensuring a fit for purpose border.

Why do you think it will be years more? The delay until August 2024 is (I think) the fourth delay of EES/ETIAS. It would be staggeringly incompetent if the EU delays it any further. If it launches in August 2024 then the St Pancras capacity issues should be mostly solved by end of next year.

What is your proposed solution for St Pancras? There isn't space to do much. Any solution to that will be eye wateringly expensive. Its not a big problem for our government or the EU that Eurostar has to limit services a bit until ETIAS, EES and UK ETA are working smoothly. The time between end of pandemic and roll out of elecronic travel authorities partially overlaps with the redevelopment of Amsterdam Central, which will shrink Eurostar network and passenger numbers at St Pancras for a chunk of next year. It makes sense that both the UK and French governments just want to muddle through until the new systems are in place.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Why do you think it will be years more? The delay until August 2024 is (I think) the fourth delay of EES/ETIAS. It would be staggeringly incompetent if the EU delays it any further. If it launches in August 2024 then the St Pancras capacity issues should be mostly solved by end of next year.

What is your proposed solution for St Pancras? There isn't space to do much. Any solution to that will be eye wateringly expensive. Its not a big problem for our government or the EU that Eurostar has to limit services a bit until ETIAS, EES and UK ETA are working smoothly. The time between end of pandemic and roll out of elecronic travel authorities partially overlaps with the redevelopment of Amsterdam Central, which will shrink Eurostar network and passenger numbers at St Pancras for a chunk of next year. It makes sense that both the UK and French governments just want to muddle through until the new systems are in place.

Is it too obvious to suggest that if the problem is not lack of train/track capacity, but lack of terminal processing capacity, then a percentage of tickets for each train from London should be sold from, eg, Stratford instead of St Pancras? Then passenger processing there happens in parallel, with the train stopping for a relatively short time to simply load the extra passengers. I'd be happy for a slower overall journey time on some services in return for the extra seats being available; the "from Stratford" tickets could be sold at a discount, and/or could be inclusive of travel from any Greater London station.

If there were still some non-stop London-Paris/Brussels services, it wouldn't affect the headline journey time used to attract passengers. After all, there are varied journey times anyway, with some services stopping in France en route.

 

[railfan99]

...how many British Eurostar passengers in 2026 or 2027 won't be on the system already? 20, 30 per train? I am not sure either the EU or UK governments would be interested in exempting each others citizens because there are security benefits for both sides having biometric checks for travellers, as frustrating as they are for passengers and operators.

Given there'll always be children making their first journey, plus others, maybe you are underestimating the number.

By the way, last year, my recollection is processing at St Pancras was quick.

 

[modernrail]

Why do you think it will be years more? The delay until August 2024 is (I think) the fourth delay of EES/ETIAS. It would be staggeringly incompetent if the EU delays it any further. If it launches in August 2024 then the St Pancras capacity issues should be mostly solved by end of next year.

What is your proposed solution for St Pancras? There isn't space to do much. Any solution to that will be eye wateringly expensive. Its not a big problem for our government or the EU that Eurostar has to limit services a bit until ETIAS, EES and UK ETA are working smoothly. The time between end of pandemic and roll out of elecronic travel authorities partially overlaps with the redevelopment of Amsterdam Central, which will shrink Eurostar network and passenger numbers at St Pancras for a chunk of next year. It makes sense that both the UK and French governments just want to muddle through until the new systems are in place.

It would not be staggeringly incompetent at all - it would be totally predictable for the roll out of a major security sensitive multi-country border control system in an era of state sponsored hacking and notoriously prone to massive bedding in period issues IT projects. We can’t even get a variant of an existing train system (SWT) to work.

It’s the total lack of a ambition on our side that is staggeringly incompetent. We built a really expensive asset and we should be getting maximum use out of it, not settling for an under capacity, inflated ticket price, reduced service, reduced pick-up station, reduced destination, cancelled expansion plan 2nd class provision because we can’t sort our border out.

The situation at St P is just a version of the situation at Dover. It is 2 locations, that’s all. We don’t seem to be hearing about any other ports having big problems. So take some shops out, turn the circulation space infront of the current entrance into Eurostar restricted area, get some extra border guards on, and send the bill to the Government at their request.

 

[AdamWW]

You don’t witness the queues to use their services as closely as I do! It’s of no matter.

Perhaps I have misunderstood but are you suggesting that the reported statement by Eurostar that they are deliberately reducing capacity is untrue?

Like most national borders in the world, then. It seems a reasonable enough question to me.

What’s your objection to being asked, exactly?

None at all - as you say they have every right to do so - but I don't understand how no matter what technology is in place we can go back to getting UK citizens through as quickly as before Brexit if they are going to be asked questions rather than (as before) just having to show that they have a UK passport.

 

[43066]

People are not ranting about Brexit, the question is about what happens now Brexit has happened.

And the answer is that businesses affected simply need to deal with it, as part of the wider environment they operate in. Like a labour shortage, or higher interest rates.

The UK Goverment controls the border and allocates border resources. A very obvious consequence of choosing a form of Brexit that included leaving the single market was the need to beef up the borders to maintain capacity and efficiency. In addition, it was also going to be the case when leaving the single market that extra physical border facilities would be required that the Government should pay for as is not the Port of Dover or Holyhead or Eurostar(relatively small companies) that have changed the game. It doesn’t matter whether you believe Brexit was a good idea or not. It is just a consequence that needs to be dealt with - ideally without drama.

(And you’re seriously suggesting you aren’t moaning about Brexit? )

A border, by definition, is controlled by both parties. It appears to be the passport stamping by French authorities that is causing the delays. You keep saying “the government should pay”, but it’s not clear why they should when it isn’t the UK government that has created the requirement for passports to be manually stamped.

A way of dealing with it “without drama” is to let things continue as they are and for Eurostar/the French authorities to increase staff. Alternatively, why can’t France simply allow UK citizens to use e gates?

It’s not the point though, it is our border with our nearest physical neighbours and so we should be leading on implementing the extra border capacity required for a longer per passenger processing time.

The delays are apparently being caused by the French authorities insisting on stamping UK citizens’ passports, and refusal to allow UK passport holders to use e gates, so it’s hard to see why that’s the UK government’s responsibility to put right, or why the UK taxpayer should foot the bill.

Perhaps I have misunderstood but are you suggesting that the reported statement by Eurostar that they are deliberately reducing capacity is untrue?

As I say they are a successful and profitable company. They can improve their own facilities. Clearly demand has reduced post pandemic, but that’s likely to be down to reduced business travel and the wider cost of living crisis. Surely people aren’t suggesting that having to have passports stamped is putting people off using Eurostar?

None at all - as you say they have every right to do so - but I don't understand how no matter what technology is in place we can go back to getting UK citizens through as quickly as before Brexit if they are going to be asked questions rather than (as before) just having to show that they have a UK passport.

The article specifically mentions that it is stamping UK citizens’ passports by French authorities that is causing the delays. Therefore it’s a matter for Eurostar/the French authorities to address. Either more staff are needed or they could fast track UK passport holders.

 

[AdamWW]

As I say they are a successful and profitable company. They can improve their own facilities. Clearly demand has reduced post pandemic, but that’s likely to be down to reduced business travel and the wider cost of living crisis. Surely people aren’t suggesting that having to have passports stamped is putting people off using Eurostar?

I don't see where anyone is suggesting that.

I'm repeating myself, but Eurostar have said that (e.g. in the link I provided) that they have had to reduce the number of tickets they sell due to limited capacity for getting people through French passport control at St Pacras.

There may be scope to do something about it, but (at least at the time of the articles quoted) they haven't done enough to be able to restore the full capacity that would otherwise be possible.

I suspect this thread is really just an anti Brexit rant. It’s happened, complaining won’t change it, and businesses just need to get on with it.

And like many things that the railway has to get on with, some people will be interested in discussing here how they do so.

The article specifically mentions that it is stamping UK citizens’ passports by French authorities that is causing the delays. Therefore it’s a matter for Eurostar/the French authorities to address. Either more staff are needed or they could fast track UK passport holders.

It does, which is interesting because when I've entered (and left) the EU since Brexit (though not through St Pancras) I've generally been questioned. Maybe I just look suspicious though I don't recall seeing other people with UK passports just being waved through.

A way of dealing with it “without drama” is to let things continue as they are and for Eurostar/the French authorities to increase staff. Alternatively, why can’t France simply allow UK citizens to use e gates?

At the moment, a UK citizen using an e-gate would still have to have their passport stamped (and in principle checked to make sure they hadn't used up their allowed time in the Schengen area). Maybe it would be more efficient though as the staff wouldn't have to spend any time deciding if you match the photo and whether your passport is valid.

 

[modernrail]

The stamping was always going to happen, as was the questioning. It happens for all none EU countries. The UK Government has a choice, arrange an as or better efficient border as before Brexit by investment and liaison with neighbours, or have a less efficient border. It has opted for a less efficient border. It is a choice that has been made.

Eurostar does not have the financial wriggle room to pay for extra border staff any more than BA or EasyJet etc etc. To suggest they foot the bill is just silliness.

We already make border payments to the French for other reasons and this would probably be a modest bill compared to the other payments.

It’s a real shame. Eurostar has become a shadow of its former self. It is fairly unpleasant to use now at the terminals. I am glad I tried out the south of France service before it was pulled. It is too expensive for many now.

 

[43066]

Eurostar have said that (e.g. in the link I provided) that they have had to reduce the number of tickets they sell due to limited capacity for getting people through French passport control at St Pacras.

That specific article mentions that the reason queues aren’t worse is because the timetable is still below 2019 levels, but isn’t the same as saying that the reduced timetable is specifically because of the passport stamping issues. The concern is presumably that the problem will get worse as the timetable is increased.

There may be scope to do something about it, but (at least at the time of the articles quoted) they haven't done enough to be able to restore the full capacity that would otherwise be possible.

It isn’t clear why that is supposedly the fault of the UK, or why the UK taxpayer should be on the hook to bail out a company majority owned by SNCF.

And like many things that the railway has to get on with, some people will be interested in discussing here how they do so.

The poster I quoted is blaming the UK government for French intransigence around passport checks. I’d be interested to know whether the same issue is mirrored for EU citizens entering the UK and if not why not.

At the moment, a UK citizen using an e-gate would still have to have their passport stamped (and in principle checked to make sure they hadn't used up their allowed time in the Schengen area). Maybe it would be more efficient though as the staff wouldn't have to spend any time deciding if you match the photo and whether your passport is valid.

I perhaps don’t understand the technology enough, but it’s a little hard to understand why the process can’t be completely automated for chipped passports, with the e gate flagging up anomalies to border staff.

The stamping was always going to happen, as was the questioning. It happens for all none EU countries. The UK Government has a choice, arrange an as or better efficient border as before Brexit by investment and liaison with neighbours, or have a less efficient border. It has opted for a less efficient border. It is a choice that has been made.

The stamping is a choice made by the French authorities. Treating UK citizens using Eurostar in the same way as other non EU countries and not allowing e gates is also a choice being made by the French - who ironically are completely unable to control their borders with other counties, and notably take a rather more relaxed approach to people crossing the channel in the other direction by illegal means.

We already make border payments to the French for other reasons and this would probably be a modest bill compared to the other payments.

Eurostar is majority owned by SNCF, so if anybody is willing to pay it should be the French.

Eurostar does not have the financial wriggle room to pay for extra border staff any more than BA or EasyJet etc etc. To suggest they foot the bill is just silliness.

Lots of assumptions here. The silliness is you suggesting that the UK taxpayer should foot the bill for a private company adapting its arrangements. Airports and airlines seem to manage it.

 

[Gaelan]

I perhaps don’t understand the technology enough, but it’s a little hard to understand why the process can’t be completely automated for chipped passports, with the e gate flagging up anomalies to border staff.

Schengen allows visa-free tourist travel up to a certain number of days per year. The way this is enforced is dated stamps on entry and exit, which are (at least in principle, though others have suggested UK citizens generally only get a cursory glance) checked at future border crossings to ensure the time hasn’t been exceeded. So any stamp-free mechanism to cross the border would have to create a record viewable by staff at every border in Schengen, which is a substantial IT investment.

And they are doing this! That’s the EES (possibly also ETIAS, not sure about the exact role of the two) that people are talking about elsewhere in the thread.