Eurostar: Additional passport check on arrival at St P?

[Dougal2345]

If on a day trip the chances are you would leave the passport in the hotel safe. Also other ID would be left in the safe too, eg drivers licence. I imagine your insurance heavily recommends that!

I've never even thought of leaving my passport in the safe when abroad, I always keep it on me.

(also not all the cheaper hotels I stay in have a safe in the room...)

I had a vague idea that some countries require you to be able to prove your identity at any time with an identity card, and as a traveller your passport stood in for that?

 

[zero]

I've seen many a time when French border guards open British passports on the scanner, literally don't even look at them, let alone look at the person standing in front of them to check if the photograph matches, stamp them and immediately hand them back.

Before 2018 or so you would sometimes get French, Spanish and Italian officers not even bother to open passports on arrival into Schengen if they were passports from a developed country.

No problem if you are an EEA or Swiss citizen (which included UK at the time).

Could and did cause problems for Americans, Australians etc particularly if departing Schengen from Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands etc. Happened to me once in 2010 before I became a British citizen, the only other time it happened he got a bit annoyed because I forced him to stamp it and he needed to go and find an ink pad

 

[Chester1]

You also have the issue that the Irish authorities found that the provisions of the CTA were being abused by significant numbers of people who weren’t entitled to use it (i.e. non-Irish and non-UK citizens) into Ireland through Irish airports back in the early 1990s.

With no common visas for visiting both the UK & Ireland, it was decided to implement full immigration checks on all passengers.

Obviously Irish & UK citizens do not need a passport for immigration from within the CTA, but do need photo ID and do need to be able to prove their right to avail of the CTA provisions to an immigration officer.

It has never been perceived to be as great a risk for illegal travel into the UK by UK authorities, but UK Border Force do carry out regular intelligence led checks on arriving flights from Ireland.

These days there is the British - Irish visa scheme that is essentially a joint visa for Indian and Chinese tourists. The visa is issued by the country they will arrive in but includes visa free travel in the other country. I have no idea how the Irish government got away with allowing the UK to issue visas for the Republic!!!! When you add people who don't need visitor visas then the majority of the tourists in UK and Ireland doesn't need a visa to cross between UK and Ireland.

I have said before I would support passengers arriving on planes from the Republic to face border controls marching those going the other way. The marginal cost would be tiny and it would be more secure than intelligence led and random checking. It would also send a clear signal that the Common Travel Area only continues to exist to keep the peace in Northern Ireland and that if or when Ireland unites we will have normal border controls. Something like the Trans Tasmin Agreement could continue the right to work in each other's countries.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I have said before I would support passengers arriving on planes from the Republic to face border controls marching those going the other way.

What would this actually solve though? People could just sneak across the border and onto a ferry/domestic flight from NI instead.
You've absolutely no chance of imposing fixed border controls on routes from NI without causing the political row from hell with Stormont.

 

[zero]

Is there a reason the UK and Ireland can't agree on who needs a visa and who doesn't, in order to have a proper common travel area?

 

[berneyarms]

Is there a reason the UK and Ireland can't agree on who needs a visa and who doesn't, in order to have a proper common travel area?

Probably the fact that the CTA is a fudge to deal with the political history between the two countries. It's an "arrangement" to facilitate Irish & UK citizens, rather than codified legislation.

Plus the fact that they are two sovereign independent states.

 

[zero]

Probably the fact that the CTA is a fudge to deal with the political history between the two countries. It's an "arrangement" to facilitate Irish & UK citizens, rather than codified legislation.

Plus the fact that they are two sovereign independent states.

Yet Schengen contains many sovereign independent states and it was once a possibility that both the UK and Ireland could have joined

 

[stadler]

Ireland and the UK is a really odd one. I too am very surprised we have never introduced a proper Schengen style agreement and had one visa policy for both. If thirty independent sovereign European countries can agree to such a system then i fail to see why just two countries can not come up with their own. This would still maintain no border between ROI and NI so i can not see why anyone would be unhappy with this. It would not affect any Northern Irish peace deals or anything. It would just mean that the UK and Ireland would have one common border and visa policy and be treated as one combined area for visitors and their visas just like the Schengen area is.

There has always been some nationalities that are visa free to go to the UK but require a visa to go to Ireland. But they can get around this by entering the UK first and then crossing in to Ireland.

There has always been some nationalities that are visa free to go to Ireland but require a visa to go to the UK. But they can get around this by entering Ireland first and then crossing in to the UK.

Then since last month the UK has completely scrapped visa free travel for all nationalities and introduced visas for everyone (other than UK and Ireland citizens) and everyone now needs a visa (either an online ETA visa or a full proper visa) to visit the UK. But you can easily get around this requirement by taking a plane or ferry to Ireland first and then crossing in to the UK. So with this method people can easily avoid getting an ETA visa or full visa and continue to enter the UK visa free.

Introducing full border controls for flights and ferries between the UK and Ireland and vice versa would be pointless as people could just cross by train or bus or car from ROI to NI or vice versa. Take a flight to Ireland then cross from ROI to NI by land then take a ferry to Scotland or vice versa. So border controls on flights and ferries would simply not achieve anything due to ROI and NI having an open border.

Belarus and Russia also have the same issue. They have an open border with no checks when crossing by land but yet some nationalities require a visa for one but not the other. So the UK and Ireland are not the only one with this odd arrangement.

 

[Chester1]

Ireland and the UK is a really odd one. I too am very surprised we have never introduced a proper Schengen style agreement and had one visa policy for both. If thirty independent sovereign European countries can agree to such a system then i fail to see why just two countries can not come up with their own. This would still maintain no border between ROI and NI so i can not see why anyone would be unhappy with this. It would not affect any Northern Irish peace deals or anything. It would just mean that the UK and Ireland would have one common border and visa policy and be treated as one combined area for visitors and their visas just like the Schengen area is.

There has always been some nationalities that are visa free to go to the UK but require a visa to go to Ireland. But they can get around this by entering the UK first and then crossing in to Ireland.

There has always been some nationalities that are visa free to go to Ireland but require a visa to go to the UK. But they can get around this by entering Ireland first and then crossing in to the UK.

Then since last month the UK has completely scrapped visa free travel for all nationalities and introduced visas for everyone (other than UK and Ireland citizens) and everyone now needs a visa (either an online ETA visa or a full proper visa) to visit the UK. But you can easily get around this requirement by taking a plane or ferry to Ireland first and then crossing in to the UK. So with this method people can easily avoid getting an ETA visa or full visa and continue to enter the UK visa free.

Introducing full border controls for flights and ferries between the UK and Ireland and vice versa would be pointless as people could just cross by train or bus or car from ROI to NI or vice versa. Take a flight to Ireland then cross from ROI to NI by land then take a ferry to Scotland or vice versa. So border controls on flights and ferries would simply not achieve anything due to ROI and NI having an open border.

Belarus and Russia also have the same issue. They have an open border with no checks when crossing by land but yet some nationalities require a visa for one but not the other. So the UK and Ireland are not the only one with this odd arrangement.

"Tell me you have never applied for a visa without saying you have never applied for a visa"

UK ETA is a background check that almost always takes minutes to process. It isn't a visa and neither will ETIAS be when the EU launches it. Who says Brits need visa to visit the US, Canada or Australia? My wife needs a full visa for Schengen involving taking half a day off work for a visa appointment, a combined processing cost of about £160. This is the situation of millions of UK non Citizen residents visiting the EU and vice versa. A reciprocal agreement waiving visa requirements for each other's non Citizen residents would boost tourism significantly. Astoundingly never had this during our 47 years in the EU (the EU only has it for Schengen members).

The advantage of the way Ireland handles GB flights is that it massively reduces the number of options for some one seeking to travel into Ireland illegally. This makes monitoring those routes through intelligence and general policing easier and the UK should copy them. The flows that are of most interest are across the Irish sea not UK-RoI. People forget Northern Ireland is only about 3% of the UK by population and for policing has to be treated sort of like one bloc with the rest of the island of Ireland.

The Irish government will never agree to formalise the CTA. It's an agreement that only exists because of the partition of the island a century ago and there is too much historical baggage.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I had a vague idea that some countries require you to be able to prove your identity at any time with an identity card, and as a traveller your passport stood in for that

I had the railway police (Polizia Ferroviaria) ask me for ID twice recently in Sicily. Same two guys, different locations, and the second time I think one of them recognised me from the day before while I rummaged in my zipped pocket for my passport.

 

[zero]

UK ETA is a background check that almost always takes minutes to process. It isn't a visa and neither will ETIAS be when the EU launches it. Who says Brits need visa to visit the US, Canada or Australia? My wife needs a full visa for Schengen involving taking half a day off work for a visa appointment, a combined processing cost of about £160. This is the situation of millions of UK non Citizen residents visiting the EU and vice versa.

Wikipedia says the word visa comes from your documents needing to be seen in advance of travel, so in that sense a UK ETA, US ESTA are not visas. Yet Australia calls their version a visa, and it even considers NZ citizens (who basically have freedom of movement) presenting their passport at immigration to be the granting of a visa.

To me, if you cannot just book travel to another country and present your passport at immigration then that country has a "visa requirement".

The UK and Schengen may make some visas complex and costly, which doesn't mean that simpler processes are not visas.

 

[Chester1]

Wikipedia says the word visa comes from your documents needing to be seen in advance of travel, so in that sense a UK ETA, US ESTA are not visas. Yet Australia calls their version a visa, and it even considers NZ citizens (who basically have freedom of movement) presenting their passport at immigration to be the granting of a visa.

To me, if you cannot just book travel to another country and present your passport at immigration then that country has a "visa requirement".

The UK and Schengen may make some visas complex and costly, which doesn't mean that simpler processes are not visas.

Kiwis and Aussies arriving in each others countries are in a different situation to other tourists. They are granted a visa on arrival that confers residency rights, even if they are only coming a week. The stamp in their passport is actually a visa on arrival. The UK, US, EU and Canada don't call ETAs visas. There is a distinct legal difference. A visa is granted based on the judgment of an official with authority delegated from the relevant government minister and the legal burden of proof is on the applicant to satisfy the official they can be trusted to be allowed to enter the country they are applying to. An ETA essentially just moves a search of someone's name and DoB from the border to pre departure, streamling the arrival process. The people being rejected by UK ETA are the same people who got rejected at the border, the difference is they can be rejected in advance and have the option of applying for a visa in advance and having a small possibility of their plans going ahead. Unless someone is on or shares a name and age with someone on a watch list they can turn up and go. Its sensible to do it in advance of course. There are numerous instances of people turning up at airports not realising the new requirements and getting UK ETA at airports, Gare due Nord etc. It's quite normal to get the UK ETA in under 5 minutes of pressing submit. For the vast majority of people it's fully automated. Staff only look at applications if the details provided trigger warnings. I think there is a big risk of people with certain political view point over selling the friction and then people using and thinking "is that it?". Its just an app asking for the same sort of information many apps and websites ask for.

 

[stadler]

"Tell me you have never applied for a visa without saying you have never applied for a visa"

UK ETA is a background check that almost always takes minutes to process. It isn't a visa and neither will ETIAS be when the EU launches it. Who says Brits need visa to visit the US, Canada or Australia? My wife needs a full visa for Schengen involving taking half a day off work for a visa appointment, a combined processing cost of about £160. This is the situation of millions of UK non Citizen residents visiting the EU and vice versa. A reciprocal agreement waiving visa requirements for each other's non Citizen residents would boost tourism significantly. Astoundingly never had this during our 47 years in the EU (the EU only has it for Schengen members).

The advantage of the way Ireland handles GB flights is that it massively reduces the number of options for some one seeking to travel into Ireland illegally. This makes monitoring those routes through intelligence and general policing easier and the UK should copy them. The flows that are of most interest are across the Irish sea not UK-RoI. People forget Northern Ireland is only about 3% of the UK by population and for policing has to be treated sort of like one bloc with the rest of the island of Ireland.

The Irish government will never agree to formalise the CTA. It's an agreement that only exists because of the partition of the island a century ago and there is too much historical baggage.

I have applied for dozens of visas. Probably at least thirty or fourty throughout my life. There are many different types of visas. You have full proper visas that you have to apply for at an embassy and get stuck in your passport. You have online visas that you print out. Then you have these basic simplified online visas like the ETA scheme.

All of these annoying so called "visa waiver" things are in fact still visas. They are just simplified online visas. If you have to apply for something and pay for something to enter a country then that is a visa. That is basically the definition of what a visa is. UK ETA, Schengen ETIAS, USA ESTA, Canada ETA, Australia ETA, Australia Evisitor, New Zealand NZETA, South Korea KETA, Kenya ETA, are all simply types of simplified online visas. So yes British people do need a visa to visit the USA or Canada or Australia or New Zealand etc. You can not call these countries "visa free" when you have to apply for something and pay for something in order to enter.

For some reason these ETA things are becoming more and more common recently. It is a shame as it makes travel more difficult. It is much simpler when you can just turn up at the border. I think they are a bit discriminatory as well. People with internet access or people without a bank account are unable to use them. If you do not have internet access or do not have a bank account then you have to go to the embassy and apply for a full paper visa which is much more expensive and much more time consuming.

I also wonder why the UK and the Schengen could not agree on an exemption for each others citizens. USA and Canada have done this. USA citizens do not need an ETA to Canada. Canada citizens do not need an ESTA to USA. Considering that we are next to each other and have so much cross border travel it would have made sense to exempt Schengen citizens from the UK ETA scheme and in return exempt UK citizens from the Schengen ETIAS scheme. It would make things easier for Eurostar too.

 

[JamesT]

I also wonder why the UK and the Schengen could not agree on an exemption for each others citizens. USA and Canada have done this. USA citizens do not need an ETA to Canada. Canada citizens do not need an ESTA to USA. Considering that we are next to each other and have so much cross border travel it would have made sense to exempt Schengen citizens from the UK ETA scheme and in return exempt UK citizens from the Schengen ETIAS scheme. It would make things easier for Eurostar too.

It's really not that surprising. When we spent 30 years as an EU member not joining the Schengen area in order to retain border controls, why would we decide to exempt their members from the new system?

 

[Howardh]

It's really not that surprising. When we spent 30 years as an EU member not joining the Schengen area in order to retain border controls, why would we decide to exempt their members from the new system?

Because of the massive flow of people back and forth, it makes sense.

Anyway, pleased to say that on Monday, arriving at Schiphol, passport control took under 5 mins, although I was asked 4 questions about my stay, and coming back it took under 30 seconds to get to passport control and stamped, and at Manchester Airport (Friday) a short 2-min queue for the e-gates; and then about 15 seconds for the gate trying to recognise me.

If only it could be like that all the time - airports and Eurostar - Europhiles like me wouldn't be asking to rejoin. Maybe the incoming EES and ETIAS - once on the system - will eliminate manned controls and just use e-gates.

So my main question is how far are Eurostar at St Pancras and overseas stations ready for the new systems? Where will we get our fingerprints and scans taken @ St Pancras - it's short of room as it is? How much time will we need first up?

 

[geoffk]

It is just random from what I understand, when I went through last week some people were asked to show documents the majority walked through.

Maybe just for trains which stop at Lille. I had this unexpectedly a few years ago when returning from Brussels.

 

[Starmill]

Before 2018 or so you would sometimes get French, Spanish and Italian officers not even bother to open passports on arrival into Schengen if they were passports from a developed country.

No problem if you are an EEA or Swiss citizen (which included UK at the time).

Could and did cause problems for Americans, Australians etc particularly if departing Schengen from Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands etc. Happened to me once in 2010 before I became a British citizen, the only other time it happened he got a bit annoyed because I forced him to stamp it and he needed to go and find an ink pad

Yes, of course. Someone I know who's an Irish citizen reports at Portuguese airports they still react to them much as you describe.

If on a day trip the chances are you would leave the passport in the hotel safe. Also other ID would be left in the safe too, eg drivers licence. I imagine your insurance heavily recommends that!

So what would the Spanish accept as ID that you would carry around on such a trip?

Presumably you're obligated to follow Spanish law domestically for this journey, though. What does that have to say about ID?

Maybe just for trains which stop at Lille. I had this unexpectedly a few years ago when returning from Brussels.

It may be a more common reason to check, but I've had a full train re-check on an arrival which only served Paris Nord and nowhere else. Yes, before you ask it did take so long I missed my intended connection...

 

[Chester1]

It's really not that surprising. When we spent 30 years as an EU member not joining the Schengen area in order to retain border controls, why would we decide to exempt their members from the new system?

Because of the massive flow of people back and forth, it makes sense.

Anyway, pleased to say that on Monday, arriving at Schiphol, passport control took under 5 mins, although I was asked 4 questions about my stay, and coming back it took under 30 seconds to get to passport control and stamped, and at Manchester Airport (Friday) a short 2-min queue for the e-gates; and then about 15 seconds for the gate trying to recognise me.

If only it could be like that all the time - airports and Eurostar - Europhiles like me wouldn't be asking to rejoin. Maybe the incoming EES and ETIAS - once on the system - will eliminate manned controls and just use e-gates.

So my main question is how far are Eurostar at St Pancras and overseas stations ready for the new systems? Where will we get our fingerprints and scans taken @ St Pancras - it's short of room as it is? How much time will we need first up?

The size of the flow is a reason to apply UK ETA and ETIAS to each other. They transfer questions from the before to pre departure and reduce the number of people being turned away. They mean border staff have more information on hand when they need to scrutinise someone more than normal. They save processing time at the border. There is a security benefit from always asking specific questions too but it's not the only benefit. Exempting each other from fees would be a good gesture of friendship. Fingerprinting will cause delays when it's roled out but should be minimal when most people are only providing them once every 10 years.

Because of the massive flow of people back and forth, it makes sense.

Anyway, pleased to say that on Monday, arriving at Schiphol, passport control took under 5 mins, although I was asked 4 questions about my stay, and coming back it took under 30 seconds to get to passport control and stamped, and at Manchester Airport (Friday) a short 2-min queue for the e-gates; and then about 15 seconds for the gate trying to recognise me.

If only it could be like that all the time - airports and Eurostar - Europhiles like me wouldn't be asking to rejoin. Maybe the incoming EES and ETIAS - once on the system - will eliminate manned controls and just use e-gates.

So my main question is how far are Eurostar at St Pancras and overseas stations ready for the new systems? Where will we get our fingerprints and scans taken @ St Pancras - it's short of room as it is? How much time will we need first up?

Really? Europhiles will keep asking to rejoin for the same reason why Farage and co will reject whatever Starmer agrees with the EU, it's about identity. If the reports by the Guardian and Telegraph are accurate then Starmer is on the cusp of getting a solid deal with the EU tomorrow, that will stream line borders and encourage balanced temporary migration. Making brexit work through specific and limited handovers of sovereignty will anger Faragists but it will also anger people who desperately want to reverse brexit, if they see it sticking and not being a stepping stone to rejoining the single market then eventually full membership.

 

[Starmill]

Really? Europhiles will keep asking to rejoin for the same reason why Farage and co will reject whatever Starmer agrees with the EU, it's about identity. If the reports by the Guardian and Telegraph are accurate then Starmer is on the cusp of getting a solid deal with the EU tomorrow, that will stream line borders and encourage balanced temporary migration. Making brexit work through specific and limited handovers of sovereignty will anger Faragists but it will also anger people who desperately want to reverse brexit, if they see it sticking and not being a stepping stone to rejoining the single market then eventually full membership.

I think economics and trade are more important than identity to be honest. Yes those who define themselves by identity in the absolute will often be willing to do so at any cost but this isn't the majority of the population. Anyway the details of exactly who falls where or exactly what people value is well out of the scope of this thread, I'm just making the point there is a difference here.

 

[AdamWW]

The size of the flow is a reason to apply UK ETA and ETIAS to each other. They transfer questions from the before to pre departure and reduce the number of people being turned away. They mean border staff have more information on hand when they need to scrutinise someone more than normal. They save processing time at the border. There is a security benefit from always asking specific questions too but it's not the only benefit.

I am speaking from a position of complete ignorance here, but I would be very surprised if the number of people refused an ESA/ETIAS doesn't end up being a lot larger than the numbers being refused entry under the current system.

It seems a bit misleading to say that they transfer questions to pre departure when often these days there are no questions. And I suspect that there will be questions (e.g. on criminal records) that I don't think are usually asked at present (certainly not in my - limited - experience anywyay).

 

[signed]

I am speaking from a position of complete ignorance here, but I would be very surprised if the number of people refused an ESA/ETIAS doesn't end up being a lot larger than the numbers being refused entry under the current system.

I seriously doubt the security model of the UK ETA, especially as when I applied for mine the only question I had to answer was my job title. I don't know whether those questions are changed based on nationality or other factors.

 

[Chester1]

I am speaking from a position of complete ignorance here, but I would be very surprised if the number of people refused an ESA/ETIAS doesn't end up being a lot larger than the numbers being refused entry under the current system.

It seems a bit misleading to say that they transfer questions to pre departure when often these days there are no questions. And I suspect that there will be questions (e.g. on criminal records) that I don't think are usually asked at present (certainly not in my - limited - experience anywyay).

It should be a fairly similar refusal rate when you factor in people who are issued a visa after being a refused an ETA. These are essentially the people who get interrogated at the border, are asked to show proof. High income countries tend to share serious criminal convictions with each other (or just publish them). If John Jones turns up at St Pancras, when his passport is scanned then the French border force system should identify his 3 year prison sentence in UK for drug dealing. When ETIAS launches, if he is stupid enough to lie then they can just ban him for deception and not bother considering whether to let him in. I have been asked for criminal history (none!) on landing cards entering multiple non EU countries. The big risk is that the list of questions could keep getting longer and then the red line is crossed of asking for supporting evidence, that's when it becomes an E-Visa.

I seriously doubt the security model of the UK ETA, especially as when I applied for mine the only question I had to answer was my job title. I don't know whether those questions are changed based on nationality or other factors.

The UK ETA is more or less just trying to identify whether you are someone who is already of interest. You will have also provided your name, date of birth, place of birth, current address and some contact details. Thats enough to identify you if you are on a database for negative reasons
As @AdamWW highlights there is a little bit more to it but that is the gist.

The way I view ETA systems is that they are the fourth stage of evolution in border controls:

1st - Pre IT
2nd stage - big IT systems with a border officer manual inputting your details and doing some searches (1980s to early 2000s)
3rd - Use of biometric chips to hold passport data and load information without border officer having to input it. Early 00s onwards.
4th - using NFC chips in phones and apps to gather the data to enable checks to be conducted pre departure. Late 10s onwards (Europe is behind).

The latest tech starts to open up being able to remove gates entirely but it is reliant on the person providing the information pre departure.

 

[Benjwri]

Maybe just for trains which stop at Lille. I had this unexpectedly a few years ago when returning from Brussels.

Definitely not just random, intelligence based can be correct. A few years ago we had it where they checked everyone until they seemingly found a specific person, ushered them into a side room and let the rest of the train go without any further checking.

 

[StephenHunter]

If on a day trip the chances are you would leave the passport in the hotel safe. Also other ID would be left in the safe too, eg drivers licence. I imagine your insurance heavily recommends that!

Check the relevant FCDO page, but a digital copy of your photo page will suffice in some countries.

 

[Howardh]

Check the relevant FCDO page, but a digital copy of your photo page will suffice in some countries.

I have a photo of the relevant pages of my passport saved in my e-mail account/s, so hope that would suffice! I'd be very uncomfortable carrying my passport around all day and night, would much prefer an ID card such as they have in Europe. Could argue though that gets more easily lost!