Eurostar brand to remain post-merger and to be complete in three years

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://www.railwaygazette.com/high-speed/eurostar-brand-to-remain-after-thalys-merger/60033.article

EUROPE: European high speed operators Eurostar and Thalys confirmed on October 4 that their planned merger announced in September 2019 is on course to be completed ‘within two to three years’, with a formal submission to the European Commission’s competition authority expected in 2022.

Seems like Eurostar brand is staying. However i cant see the full article. No GreenSpeed as a name (though i think that was the project name).

Thalys brand to disappear in merger with Eurostar

The high-speed train companies Eurostar and Thalys are resuming their merger project, delayed by the coronavirus crisis. The headquarters of the future

www.aviation24.be

The high-speed train companies Eurostar and Thalys are resuming their merger project, delayed by the coronavirus crisis. The headquarters of the future entity will be established in Brussels and, in time, the Thalys brand will disappear, reports French newspaper Les Echos.

A holding company will be created, housing the two companies. It will be established in Brussels. French railway company SNCF will be the majority shareholder while Belgian SNCB will get 18.5% of the shares.

In two or three years, only the Eurostar brand, which is better known internationally, especially in the US, will survive. It also has the advantage of referring to Europe.

The project, called Green Speed, consists of creating the first high-speed train company connecting five countries (France, United Kingdom, Belgium, Germany and The Netherlands), says a Thalys spokesperson.

However, the merger operation must still be submitted to the European Commission, probably in early 2022.

The goal of carrying 30 million passengers by 2030 is maintained but probably postponed by two or three years. The combined customership of the two companies was 18.5 million people in 2018.

 

[507 001]

So we could see something like this in the not too distant future then? I certainly hope so!

 

[the sniper]

Seems like Eurostar brand is staying. However i cant see the full article. No GreenSpeed as a name (though i think that was the project name).

In two or three years, only the Eurostar brand, which is better known internationally, especially in the US, will survive. It also has the advantage of referring to Europe.

Glad to hear that, it's a strong brand that works for the entire operation. Far better then 'GreenSpeed'!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So that will be the end of the "Eurostar is based in the UK" mantra, as the last element of UK influence in the cross-channel operation vanishes?
Brussels is after all the centre of the combined company's operation.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

Ooh that's interesting, I agree about keeping the Eurostar branding.
Any thoughts on what this might mean for the respective fleets? The 373/e300 sets must be close to retirement? The Thalys sets can't be used in the Eurotunnel correct? Not long enough? Or is that rule no longer in place? Did DB manage to find a work around?
We may see double decker TGV coming through to London?!

 

[swt_passenger]

Ooh that's interesting, I agree about keeping the Eurostar branding.
Any thoughts on what this might mean for the respective fleets? The 373/e300 sets must be close to retirement? The Thalys sets can't be used in the Eurotunnel correct? Not long enough? Or is that rule no longer in place? Did DB manage to find a work around?
We may see double decker TGV coming through to London?!

The length rule and “no distributed traction” rule were definitely removed a good few years ago. The North of London sets never conformed with the rule either, had they been introduced.

 

[Astro_Orbiter]

That's interesting then, the TGV PBKA sets are quad current, could mean direct services at least to Germany? Customs and passport control scuppers most things though, unless the political will is there.

 

[BahrainLad]

The Thalys PBKA/PBA are of a similar generation to the E300 (PBA being a TGV Reseau. PBKA are essentially version 1 of the TGV Duplex power car. Both mid 1990s designs). Having said that, they are in the process of being refurbished so have some time left in service.

 

[XAM2175]

Did DB manage to find a work around?

Customs and passport control scuppers most things though, unless the political will is there.

Yes, it was the UK Government's refusal to allow immigration checks aboard the train that was the ultimate block to DB's plan.

With customs requirements on top as a result of Brexit I think it's quite unlikely that any new through-tunnel destinations will be added, unless they want to clear passengers at Lille on the way to London.

 

[capitalconnect]

https://www.railwaygazette.com/high-speed/eurostar-brand-to-remain-after-thalys-merger/60033.article



Seems like Eurostar brand is staying. However i cant see the full article. No GreenSpeed as a name (though i think that was the project name).

Thalys brand to disappear in merger with Eurostar

The high-speed train companies Eurostar and Thalys are resuming their merger project, delayed by the coronavirus crisis. The headquarters of the future

www.aviation24.be

So if i understand it correctly it will be owned by SNCF (81.5%) and SNCB/NMBS/NGBE (18.5%) which means that DB and NS will no longer have any ownership in the company? If i remember correctly i think that DB and NS both partially own Thalys at the moment along with the two others?

 

[33Hz]

With customs requirements on top as a result of Brexit I think it's quite unlikely that any new through-tunnel destinations will be added, unless they want to clear passengers at Lille on the way to London.

The agreement with the Netherlands was signed after the Brexit vote and is independent of Brexit, so I don't see any reason why Germany couldn't be added in the same way if the will was there.

DB and NS both partially own Thalys at the moment along with the two others?

Pretty sure DB got out of Thalys before.

 

[DanielB]

So if i understand it correctly it will be owned by SNCF (81.5%) and SNCB/NMBS/NGBE (18.5%) which means that DB and NS will no longer have any ownership in the company? If i remember correctly i think that DB and NS both partially own Thalys at the moment along with the two others?

NS never had a share in the ownership of Thalys, but is a strategic partner without any shares.
Both Thalys and Eurostar services within the Netherlands are ran under the "Hoofdrailnet"-concession by NS International, who are also providing staff (mainly drivers). Formally there's a doughter company of NSI for those operations: Thalys Nederland BV

DB sold their shares in Thalys earlier, the German operations of Thalys are currently ran by Keolis Deutschland.

 

[Bald Rick]

The agreement with the Netherlands was signed after the Brexit vote and is independent of Brexit, so I don't see any reason why Germany couldn't be added in the same way if the will was there.

The reason is that Amsterdam - London is second only to Paris - London in terms of passenger numbers (all modes) for major international routes in Europe. Therefore it can justify the necessary (expensive) arrangements for border / customs control at Amsterdam. Nowhere in Germany comes close in terms of passenger demand for the UK, and it’s (mostly) further away. Therefore it’s very unlikely that any one or two destinations in Germany could justify the level of service that is needed to enable the border / customs control their.

 

[Ianno87]

The reason is that Amsterdam - London is second only to Paris - London in terms of passenger numbers (all modes) for major international routes in Europe. Therefore it can justify the necessary (expensive) arrangements for border / customs control at Amsterdam. Nowhere in Germany comes close in terms of passenger demand for the UK, and it’s (mostly) further away. Therefore it’s very unlikely that any one or two destinations in Germany could justify the level of service that is needed to enable the border / customs control their.

Going off the Wikipedia stats (I know) 2019 figures had Heathrow-Amsterdam on 1.9m pax/year, and Heathrow-Frankfurt on 1.5m pax/year, although:

-Amsterdam probably gains a bit once other London airports are added
-Amsterdam is ~4 hours by rail, Frankfurt would be closer to 5.

Would be interesting if there were a direct service to Frankfurt, but "Brussels Shuffle" on the way back, so see how that would stimulate the market. Seemed to work to get Amsterdam going.

 

[DanielB]

The reason is that Amsterdam - London is second only to Paris - London in terms of passenger numbers (all modes) for major international routes in Europe. Therefore it can justify the necessary (expensive) arrangements for border / customs control at Amsterdam. Nowhere in Germany comes close in terms of passenger demand for the UK, and it’s (mostly) further away. Therefore it’s very unlikely that any one or two destinations in Germany could justify the level of service that is needed to enable the border / customs control their.

In addition to that: with only a relatively limited investment the two Eurostar stations in the Netherlands (Rotterdam Central and Amsterdam Central) are able to serve most of the country. Both stations are relatively easy to reach via the domestic network and the south (for which Rotterdam would mean a detour) has an easy connection to Brussels via Breda anyway.

In that perspective it will be much more of a challenge to serve a much larger country like Germany using only one or two stations whilst remaining attractive: Germany has much more airports as well from which services to the UK exist.

 

[Ianno87]

In addition to that: with only a relatively limited investment the two Eurostar stations in the Netherlands (Rotterdam Central and Amsterdam Central) are able to serve most of the country. Both stations are relatively easy to reach via the domestic network and the south (for which Rotterdam would mean a detour) has an easy connection to Brussels via Breda anyway.

In that perspective it will be much more of a challenge to serve a much larger country like Germany using only one or two stations whilst remaining attractive: Germany has much more airports as well from which services to the UK exist.

In Germany, serving Köln and Frankfurt would buy you quite a few connections, but would probably be limited in practice to their hinterlands (e.g. Mannheim, Düsseldorf, etc) as otherwise travelling via rail throughout becomes a very long journey indeed (e.g. to somewhere like Berlin or Munich)

 

[Bald Rick]

Going off the Wikipedia stats (I know) 2019 figures had Heathrow-Amsterdam on 1.9m pax/year, and Heathrow-Frankfurt on 1.5m pax/year, although:

-Amsterdam probably gains a bit once other London airports are added
-Amsterdam is ~4 hours by rail, Frankfurt would be closer to 5.

Would be interesting if there were a direct service to Frankfurt, but "Brussels Shuffle" on the way back, so see how that would stimulate the market. Seemed to work to get Amsterdam going.

Frankfurt is almost all Heathrow; all London airports is about 2m pax a year, with few doing the trip by rail.

Amsterdam is about 5m by air (over a million from Gatwick, nearly a million from Luton, and so on), and was getting on for another half million by rail.

The Brussels shuffle happened because the negotiations for border control etc took longer than expected, but they were always expected to succeed. And the size of the market meant that it was always expected to support 3-5 trains a day, which gives a good spread of departures and makes resourcing them straightforward.

The trouble with Frankfurt is that it is (was) very business heavy, and the earliest possible arrival time would be around lunchtime. There’s not going to be demand for much more than a train each way a day, and to make best use of the resource you’d be wanting an out and back in c12-14 hours.

 

[Ianno87]

.

The trouble with Frankfurt is that it is (was) very business heavy, and the earliest possible arrival time would be around lunchtime. There’s not going to be demand for much more than a train each way a day, and to make best use of the resource you’d be wanting an out and back in c12-14 hours.

That and business travel demand is probably going to be slower to recover than leisure in the next few years.

*Hopefully* at least the Merger might bring.some attractive through fares via a single booking engine, even of a change is required at Brussels.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

One issue with travelling London to Cologne / Frankfurt and v.v. by rail is (was) the poor connecting times in Brussels, being either too tight or too slack and a bit hit and miss for a reliable transit. Hopefully as a combined company there at least might be some coordination and guaranteed connections within reason. Frankfurt is pretty much the centre of the German railway system so offers good connections to all parts for leisure travellers at least.

 

[popeter45]

with the merger i could see somthing like a London-Frankfurt-Paris-London cycle like of diagram
if 2x200m units could be used in the tunnel then this could also work?
2x200 (A+B) run paris-brussels and 2x200 (C+D) run London-brussels
A+C run to Amsterdam while B+D run to frankfurt
A+C then run Amsterdam-London and B+D run Frankfurt-Paris

 

[33Hz]

*Hopefully* at least the Merger might bring.some attractive through fares via a single booking engine, even of a change is required at Brussels.

You mean like what was available until quite recently? Both through Eurostar and DB London Spezial fares on their respective booking engines. Eurostar even offered a through fare to Munich.

with the merger i could see somthing like a London-Frankfurt-Paris-London cycle like of diagram
if 2x200m units could be used in the tunnel then this could also work?
2x200 (A+B) run paris-brussels and 2x200 (C+D) run London-brussels
A+C run to Amsterdam while B+D run to frankfurt
A+C then run Amsterdam-London and B+D run Frankfurt-Paris

That's far too sensible a suggestion...

B+D would probably need to split/combine at Cologne to continue to serve Dusseldorf.

One current problem is that no Thalys set can reach Frankfurt (not enough power for the Cologne - Frankfurt line's hills) and E320s also apparently need some modification for running in Germany, although it was planned for and obviously they are a Velaro derivative so should be easy.

It begs the question of why Eurostar didn't change their 7 options order to 14 shorter sets, as DB had gained approval for that in the tunnel by the time they were ordered (in fact it was allowable on paper at the time of the original order). Will the combined company start planning for Thalys replacement in a few years and order more Siemens equipment for this for fleet commonality (would SNCF allow it again?).

 

[daodao]

Frankfurt is pretty much the centre of the German railway system

Frankfurt is not at the centre of Germany, even with its truncated boundaries post 1945. Somewhere like Kassel is closer to its centre, but is a minor city. Berlin was the dominant city in the German Reich from 1871-1945, and fairly central, but that is clearly no longer the case.

While Frankfurt, Cologne and Dusseldorf are not too far from other major West European capital cities for direct passenger rail services to be useful, passenger rail travel from these West European cities to more far-flung centres in Germany (e.g. Berlin and Munich) is unlikely to be competitive with air travel.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Frankfurt is not at the centre of Germany, even with its truncated boundaries post 1945. Somewhere like Kassel is closer to its centre, but is a minor city. Berlin was the dominant city in the German Reich from 1871-1945, and fairly central, but that is clearly no longer the case.

While Frankfurt, Cologne and Dusseldorf are not too far from other major West European capital cities for direct passenger rail services to be useful, passenger rail travel from these West European cities to more far-flung centres in Germany (e.g. Berlin and Munich) is unlikely to be competitive with air travel.

He said centre of the rail system not the country. A bit like Birmingham New Street is in GB even though Birmingham isnt the centre of the GB

 

[daodao]

He said centre of the rail system not the country. A bit like Birmingham New Street is in GB even though Birmingham isn't the centre of the GB

Frankfurt is not at the centre of German rail system, even with its truncated boundaries post 1945. It is appropriate to state that Birmingham is the centre of the English/Welsh rail system, as well as being close to its geographical centre.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

My point is that Frankfurt is the 'keystone' of the German network in operational terms, rather like Utrecht is in the Netherlands, or Birmingham in the UK for that matter.

 

[DanNCL]

One current problem is that no Thalys set can reach Frankfurt (not enough power for the Cologne - Frankfurt line's hills) and E320s also apparently need some modification for running in Germany, although it was planned for and obviously they are a Velaro derivative so should be easy.

Thalys sets can reach Frankfurt but would have to use the slower route via Koblenz instead of the high speed line (which as you mention that Thalys sets can’t handle the gradients on), and running via Koblenz adds too much time on to the journey for it to be competitive.

It begs the question of why Eurostar didn't change their 7 options order to 14 shorter sets, as DB had gained approval for that in the tunnel by the time they were ordered (in fact it was allowable on paper at the time of the original order). Will the combined company start planning for Thalys replacement in a few years and order more Siemens equipment for this for fleet commonality (would SNCF allow it again?).

I agree, it would have been a much better idea for Eurostar to do this with the 7 options.

 

[33Hz]

more far-flung centres in Germany (e.g. Berlin and Munich) is unlikely to be competitive with air travel.

Various projects underway or in planning will reduce Frankfurt - Munich to closer to 2 hours and similar reductions from Strasbourg through Stuttgart to Munich. Therefore if we consider 5 hours for London - Frankfurt to be the upper limit of viability then the same could be argued for Paris, Brussels or Amsterdam to Munich. Similarly with new 300 km/h lines planned to bring Berlin - Dusseldorf down to 3.5 hours, which should bring Brussels and Amsterdam closer to 5 hours.

 

[Ianno87]

Frankfurt is not at the centre of German rail system, even with its truncated boundaries post 1945. It is appropriate to state that Birmingham is the centre of the English/Welsh rail system, as well as being close to its geographical centre.

Frankfurt is the centre of the rail network in terms of being the busiest station in the country (by passenger usage), by virtue of all the lines and services that converge there (so is the "centre" or "hub" in that sense).

Analogous to Birmingham New Street, Brussels Midi or Utrecht Centraal.

 

[LeeLivery]

I'm quite interested to see if Izy will remain as is, if it'll expand or if they'll be told to sell by the EC...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm quite interested to see if Izy will remain as is, if it'll expand or if they'll be told to sell by the EC...

Izy is of no relevance to Eurostar so I doubt it.