Eurostar "may cap services" EES data congestion?

[Bald Rick]

I doubt putting shoes back on the trains would be that expensive.

It would, not least in the recinstituting the trains that are now razor blades etc.

if they refitted the customs facilities.

Worth having a wander around the old international terminal at Waterloo to see where they would go…

 

[STINT47]

It's also worth remembering that the platforms at what was Waterloo International have now been shortened and signaling modified accordingly. A Eurostar train would no longer fit in the station.

 

[johncrossley]

The idea that the government could have or still could get an agreement to exempt Brits from EES and ETIAS is Guardian bias and isn't grounded in any statements by the EU.

"[Eurostar] also suggested the EU and UK consider bespoke agreements, which would mean UK nationals being exempted from the collection and verification of biometric records."

Where is the "Guardian bias"? They were merely quoting what Eurostar said in evidence to the European Scrutiny Committee.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Because ETIAS/EES is a Schengen project. Ireland forms part of the Common Travel Area - effectively a micro Schengen comprising the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. People travelling from Ireland to the Schengen area are still subject to immigration checks to maintain the external security of the zone.

Only to the same extent as now, which is an identity check at the Schengen border (a visual passport check, not involving any kind of stamp).
The EES system is about checking dates of Schengen entry/exit and compliance with the 90-day-in-180 rule for visa free entry. for non-EU nationals.
Ireland has free movement within the EU and is exempt from those entry rules, like we were before Brexit.

 

[Howardh]

For Brussels to Lille travel on Eurostar, there is a separate terminal which doesn't require passport control, and you board in a different part of the train.

Ah, didn't know that; I assume domestics can't wander around the train into international carriages? If they could then unless someone physically checks to see they got off, they could end up in the UK unchecked?

 

[Bald Rick]

It's also worth remembering that the platforms at what was Waterloo International have now been shortened and signaling modified accordingly. A Eurostar train would no longer fit in the station.

Also worth remembering that it took a couple of hundred million pounds to reconfigure for domestic use, involving significant structural modifications, and taking several years.

International trains are not coming back to Waterloo.

 

[johncrossley]

Ah, didn't know that; I assume domestics can't wander around the train into international carriages? If they could then unless someone physically checks to see they got off, they could end up in the UK unchecked?

They were confined to one carriage and there were security guards preventing movement to other carriages.

As mentioned earlier, this is history now as Brussels to London trains are now pick up only in Lille.

 

[Chester1]

"[Eurostar] also suggested the EU and UK consider bespoke agreements, which would mean UK nationals being exempted from the collection and verification of biometric records."

Where is the "Guardian bias"? They were merely quoting what Eurostar said in evidence to the European Scrutiny Committee.

We can't know but its very odd to publish such a self serving suggestion into the press unless they agree with it. Eurostar wants to rewrite 28 countries law enforcement plans in order to save it some short term losses!

 

[mrmartin]

Norway isn't in the EU...

It is in Schengen though, and I pointed out this could be a Norway peculiarity.

 

[m0ffy]

Only to the same extent as now, which is an identity check at the Schengen border (a visual passport check, not involving any kind of stamp).
The EES system is about checking dates of Schengen entry/exit and compliance with the 90-day-in-180 rule for visa free entry. for non-EU nationals.
Ireland has free movement within the EU and is exempt from those entry rules, like we were before Brexit.

But once EES is in place, non-EU citizens arriving from Ireland will also be subject to EES. The poster I was replying to seemed to suggest that was not the case.

 

[BahrainLad]

and a large part of the potential market, such as on-the-day day leisure returns is completely ignored - it's only two hours to Paris (or to London for Parisiennes).

Eh? There is a large market for people who take a day trip to a city involving over 6 hours of travel, on a whim?

 

[RT4038]

Eh? There is a large market for people who take a day trip to a city involving over 6 hours of travel, on a whim?

Presumably the 6 hours including check in times, and travel from their suburb to the city centre station? A market, yes. A large market (at the kind of fares required to pay for Channel Tunnel and HS access, plus the immigration and security costs) - doubtful.

 

[stuu]

Eh? There is a large market for people who take a day trip to a city involving over 6 hours of travel, on a whim?

They used to offer cheap day return tickets - I did it once on a whim, around 2009. £29 return from memory, or thereabouts. Of course you only had to be there 20 minutes before departure then, so from my house in NW London it wasn't dramatically longer than a day out to Brighton or somewhere

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Eh? There is a large market for people who take a day trip to a city involving over 6 hours of travel, on a whim?

There are seasonal day trips by air to New York (shopping) and Lapland (meet Father Christmas on the arctic circle).
My daughter went to Vienna on a day trip and fitted in a performance at the Volksoper.
All involving 3-hour journeys or more each way.
All by air, but the principle is the same by Eurostar (if you live close enough).
I did a day trip to Köln once (flew to Brussels Charleroi and then train onwards) - on a whim.

 

[johncrossley]

If you had said in 1990 that it would take about 2 hours to get to Paris by train, it would have been assumed that by 2024 Paris would be a sensible day trip destination.

 

[RT4038]

There are seasonal day trips by air to New York (shopping) and Lapland (meet Father Christmas on the arctic circle).
My daughter went to Vienna on a day trip and fitted in a performance at the Volksoper.
All involving 3-hour journeys or more each way.
All by air, but the principle is the same by Eurostar (if you live close enough).
I did a day trip to Köln once (flew to Brussels Charleroi and then train onwards) - on a whim.

I don't think day trips to New York (shopping), Lapland, Vienna etc are generally done 'on a whim' [i.e. walk up or very near walk up], and E* caters for day trips to Paris and Brussels (or vice versa) on the same basis.

What is unlikely to happen is £50 walk up day returns!

 

[Howardh]

Eh? There is a large market for people who take a day trip to a city involving over 6 hours of travel, on a whim?

I've certainly had day trips to the continent by air from Manchester, so if I lived around the SE then certainly using Eurostar for a day out in Brussels or Lille would be high on the list! St Pancras to Lille takes about the same time as London to Eastbourne?? And yes,, on a whim, just like I'd take a day out in Blackpool from Manchester.

Edit - reading the above - if Eurostar find pax numbers declining maybe they will introduce cheap day returns to fill empty seats?

 

[RT4038]

If you had said in 1990 that it would take about 2 hours to get to Paris by train, it would have been assumed that by 2024 Paris would be a sensible day trip destination.

I am sure there are people (myself included) who do, or have, use(d) E* as a day trip destination. There are early trains and reasonably late trains for this to be perfectly possible. What it is not is cheap, due to high infrastructure and administative costs, plus none of the subsidies seen with National operations, and therefore is unlikely to be a frequent leisure day trip for all but a few.

Edit - reading the above - if Eurostar find pax numbers declining maybe they will introduce cheap day returns to fill empty seats?

That will depend on when the empty seats are available (could be early afternoon services, for instance) and there is always the problem of people currently buying more expensive tickets transferring to cheaper ones. In the current circumstances I think it more likely that service would be reduced and trains transferred elsewhere....

 

[BahrainLad]

Just to be clear - I am no stranger to day trips - as an adult I can recall multiple ones to Paris (by train), Frankfurt (by air), Geneva (by air), Turin (by air), Barcelona (by air) and even New York (strictly speaking less than 24 hours but I did fly Concorde so I thought I'd mention it ) but these were always planned some way in advance whether for business or pleasure.

Never have I woken up in Leytonstone on a Saturday morning (or even Friday evening) and thought, "I wan't to go to Paris for the day today/tomorrow and the only thing that is stopping me is the lack of a suitable walk-up fare" and I suspect I am not alone.

 

[Howardh]

Just to be clear - I am no stranger to day trips - as an adult I can recall multiple ones to Paris (by train), Frankfurt (by air), Geneva (by air), Turin (by air), Barcelona (by air) and even New York (strictly speaking less than 24 hours but I did fly Concorde so I thought I'd mention it ) but these were always planned some way in advance whether for business or pleasure.

Never have I woken up in Leytonstone on a Saturday morning (or even Friday evening) and thought, "I wan't to go to Paris for the day today/tomorrow and the only thing that is stopping me is the lack of a suitable walk-up fare" and I suspect I am not alone.

You could apply that to Manchester - London. Woke up at 8.30, saw that it was 13c in London and dry, fancy a few beers in the mild air, looked at the walk-on fares, cheapest day return (advances appear not to be available) £103*. No thanks! I do have a railcard which reduces that by a chunk, to £70, but that's still £20 too much to justify a quick day out.

*If I came back as late as possible (2053) to allow connecting time, £95.10!!

 

[philg999]

Eh? There is a large market for people who take a day trip to a city involving over 6 hours of travel, on a whim?

Well I travelled from my home in Amsterdam to Aachen last Saturday, and then back again, on the train, to buy some roll-on deodorant (which is 50% cheaper in Germany). That was 8 hours travel! So such demand does exist. I decided in the morning but would not have gone if the fare was ridiculous. (I would draw the line at 5h each way for a day trip though).

 

[DanielB]

Well I travelled from my home in Amsterdam to Aachen last Saturday, and then back again, on the train, to buy some roll-on deodorant

Doesn't seem like something that many people would do however...

Railway enthusiasts may do, I once found myself doing a round trip Amersfoort - Aachen - Liège - Maastricht - Amersfoort planned last minute. (Even buying an international e-ticket Aachen - Liège - Maastricht from my phone whilst on the way)
But still, quite rare even for me to do trips abroad without any advance planning. Within the Netherlands I'd do, but then its rare to get over 2 hours of travel time living as centrally in the country as I do.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are seasonal day trips by air to New York (shopping)

There are? in a day? You’ll be red eye on the way back as a minimum. And it won‘t be cheap.

You could apply that to Manchester - London. Woke up at 8.30, saw that it was 13c in London and dry, fancy a few beers in the mild air, looked at the walk-on fares, cheapest day return (advances appear not to be available) £103*. No thanks! I do have a railcard which reduces that by a chunk, to £70, but that's still £20 too much to justify a quick day out.

But the market for that is, frankly, miniscule.

 

[Howardh]

But the market for that is, frankly, miniscule.

....because it's so expensive!

 

[AlbertBeale]

There are? in a day? You’ll be red eye on the way back as a minimum. And it won‘t be cheap.




But the market for that is, frankly, miniscule.

If there were cheap last-minute/stand-by tickets to fill spare seats on the trains, I'd certainly consider an occasional spur-of-the-moment day-trip as far as Paris or Brussels. Going from London to the coast for the day on a journey that takes around 2 hours is normal enough - so why would there not be a similar situation with Eurostar? (Answer, of course, is that prices are prohibitive unless booked a long time ahead.)

 

[johncrossley]

Journey times were longer of course but in the 90s I remember taking advantage of affordable walk on youth Eurostar fares. Passport control was on the train so there was only the luggage scanning to worry about, therefore the overall experience was no worse than Thalys (now Eurostar) and AVE are now. Booking ahead means you have to hope there is good weather and no rail strikes at either end.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Journey times were longer of course but in the 90s I remember taking advantage of affordable walk on youth Eurostar fares. Passport control was on the train so there was only the luggage scanning to worry about, therefore the overall experience was no worse than Thalys (now Eurostar) and AVE are now. Booking ahead means you have to hope there is good weather and no rail strikes at either end.

When and why exactly did they stop checking passports on the trains (which has been common in so many other places in Europe)? We're now so used to having a big fuss before we get on board... but if only that change could be unwound... That, plus cheap walk-on/stand-by fares, and the whole Eurostar vibe would be different.

 

[SynthD]

It would take longer to implement that than to wait for the ETA to reap rewards. This news is a temporary blip.

 

[stuu]

When and why exactly did they stop checking passports on the trains (which has been common in so many other places in Europe)? We're now so used to having a big fuss before we get on board... but if only that change could be unwound... That, plus cheap walk-on/stand-by fares, and the whole Eurostar vibe would be different.

During some panic about immigration c.2000. It was realised that once on the train, someone without the correct passport was effectively in the UK anyway, unless the train was stopped specially to remove then. I suspect the Daily Mail would need to be burnt to the ground before that could be reversed

 

[RT4038]

During some panic about immigration c.2000. It was realised that once on the train, someone without the correct passport was effectively in the UK anyway, unless the train was stopped specially to remove then. I suspect the Daily Mail would need to be burnt to the ground before that could be reversed

'It was realised' is a euphemism for 'it was happening more and more often'. The airlines are forced to have comprehensive passport/visa checks before any passenger boards a plane and it was seen that there is no reason why E* should be exempt from this requirement. Having UK Border Force doing the checks at Brussels and Paris is timewise better than E* staff doing the checks there and the passengers also going through UKBF on arrival at St. Pancras.

When and why exactly did they stop checking passports on the trains (which has been common in so many other places in Europe)? We're now so used to having a big fuss before we get on board... but if only that change could be unwound... That, plus cheap walk-on/stand-by fares, and the whole Eurostar vibe would be different.

Checking passports on moving trains had been common in so many other places in Europe, but this has pretty much now ceased. If there are any it will be in a different immigration scenario to the UK). The whole immigration scene has moved on in the last 25 years. In fact, there are very few trains per day in the entire world where this is a practice now. Yes passports are checked sometimes 'in train' during a lengthy stop at a border, but would E* prefer that to the current situation? I would suggest no.

I doubt there were any cross border checking in trains in Europe where the border officials were riding a non-stop train for upwards of two and a half hours (with the sheer expense of that quantity of border officials and security crew required). I believe there is also an issue of guaranteeing consistency of internet connection on moving high speed trains, for checking passports with the database; a requirement unheard of 50 years ago but necessary in our world of today. We do need to be comparing apples with apples, rather than a misty time years ago in quite different circumstances.

Well I travelled from my home in Amsterdam to Aachen last Saturday, and then back again, on the train, to buy some roll-on deodorant (which is 50% cheaper in Germany). That was 8 hours travel! So such demand does exist. I decided in the morning but would not have gone if the fare was ridiculous. (I would draw the line at 5h each way for a day trip though).

The operative words in the post of @BahrainLad were 'large market'.......