Eurostar Mothballs Ebbsfleet and Ashford International

[LNW-GW Joint]

The BBC is reporting (on its live news ticker) that Eurostar is to mothball Ebbsfleet and Ashford International stations, because of the impact of quarantine restrictions on travel to France and Belgium.
Services will be suspended "until 2022".
Presumably this won't affect the basic frequency of Eurostar services from London.
There's nothing about this on Eurostar's own web site yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53989147

Ebbsfleet and Ashford stations, in Kent, are to be mothballed after an "unprecedented fall in demand".
It means passengers in Kent will need to start their journeys at St Pancras, in London.
In a statement Eurostar said: "Covid-19 has had a severe impact on the travel industry and on our business and we continue to operate in very challenging conditions.
"We have experienced an unprecedented fall in demand, with bookings down by 90% compared to last year.
"The environment remains very unpredictable and has been exacerbated by quarantine restrictions which are now across all of our markets."
The rail operator said it had not taken the decision not to reopen Ebbsfleet and Ashford before 2022 lightly, but said because of the "severity of the situation" it had to take action.

 

[alex397]

Eurostar is by far the best way to travel from Kent to the continent. Well, it was.

I’m very disappointed to hear this. But good news is hard to come by at the moment.

I cynically wonder if the Kent international stations will ever reopen. Especially with the suicide mission that is Brexit.

 

[joncombe]

Yes it's very sad. What is surprising to me anyway is that they are closed for all of next year too. Eurostar clearly anticipating no significant rise in demand next year, either, which is worrying.

I do feel for them because all their destinations are subject to quarantine I believe. Although France and Belgium were off the quarantine list it did not take them long to go back on (as has the Netherlands, I believe). That's going to keep demand way down for as long as it continues because few people are going to want to travel abroad if they have to go into isolation on their return (and sometimes at their destination too). A lot of their market was short breaks and business trips, both unviable with quarantine in place. It's a particular shame for the Amsterdam and Rotterdam services as a fairly recently launched service demand was growing quite well I believe (hence the increase in service) and they'd now secured the rights to run direct from Amsterdam too.

It does surprise me the decision to close both stations however (I'd be less surprised if it was just Ashford to be mothballed). Not only for those living in Kent but also those that can't get to or from London at the times of trains they want to use (especially late night arrivals and early morning departures) and so prefer to have somewhere they can drive too (I know you *can* drive to St Pancras but I don't think many would want to, or want to pay for parking there). That would mean paying for an overnight stay in London in many cases. Whilst I have mostly used St Pancras I have used Ebbsfleet for an early departure where I couldn't reliably get to London in time (it was during SWR strikes) but could drive to Ebbsfleet.

I wonder, who pays for the border controls? Perhaps that's the issue if Eurostar have to pay for border force at these stations which are barely being used at the moment. In fact I imagine their financial situation can't be great, with running such a limited service (and I believe they are having to limit capacity of those trains that are running).

 

[Taunton]

It does surprise me the decision to close both stations however (I'd be less surprised if it was just Ashford to be mothballed). Not only for those living in Kent but also those that can't get to or from London at the times of trains they want to use (especially late night arrivals and early morning departures) and so prefer to have somewhere they can drive too (I know you *can* drive to St Pancras but I don't think many would want to, or want to pay for parking there).

This indeed is us. Although we live at Canary Wharf we find it all of easier, quicker and cheaper to drive to Ebbsfleet, especially with heavy luggage and family in tow, it takes less than 30 minutes by A13 and Dartford bridge, and to park there. My colleague from Cambridgeshire does the same.

It wasn't like this when they ran from Waterloo. St Pancras is a significant nuisance to get to.

 

[paul1609]

Yes it's very sad. What is surprising to me anyway is that they are closed for all of next year too. Eurostar clearly anticipating no significant rise in demand next year, either, which is worrying.

I do feel for them because all their destinations are subject to quarantine I believe. Although France and Belgium were off the quarantine list it did not take them long to go back on (as has the Netherlands, I believe). That's going to keep demand way down for as long as it continues because few people are going to want to travel abroad if they have to go into isolation on their return (and sometimes at their destination too). A lot of their market was short breaks and business trips, both unviable with quarantine in place. It's a particular shame for the Amsterdam and Rotterdam services as a fairly recently launched service demand was growing quite well I believe (hence the increase in service) and they'd now secured the rights to run direct from Amsterdam too.

It does surprise me the decision to close both stations however (I'd be less surprised if it was just Ashford to be mothballed). Not only for those living in Kent but also those that can't get to or from London at the times of trains they want to use (especially late night arrivals and early morning departures) and so prefer to have somewhere they can drive too (I know you *can* drive to St Pancras but I don't think many would want to, or want to pay for parking there). That would mean paying for an overnight stay in London in many cases. Whilst I have mostly used St Pancras I have used Ebbsfleet for an early departure where I couldn't reliably get to London in time (it was during SWR strikes) but could drive to Ebbsfleet.

I wonder, who pays for the border controls? Perhaps that's the issue if Eurostar have to pay for border force at these stations which are barely being used at the moment. In fact I imagine their financial situation can't be great, with running such a limited service (and I believe they are having to limit capacity of those trains that are running).

If you live in Kent its usually cheaper to take your car through Eurotunnel and park at the free car park at Frethun station and get the TGV to Paris. If I was going to Lille and my destination was more than a walk from the station I'd drive the whole way.
In terms of distance from my house by car Brussels is about the same as Birmingham, Paris as Stoke on Trent and Amsterdam Carlisle.
Generally the journey times are quicker (including the shuttle) because of less congestion. Driving in France isn't really an issue for people down here.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I acknowledge that a moderator just deleted my post for a valid reason (“added nothing to the discussion”) so I’ll frame it more explicitly.

Ashford, Kent: Leave 59.86%
Ebbsfleet, Kent: Leave 63.98%

Strangely, despite having world class infrastructure to facilitate easy international trade and travel right on their doorstep, the people of these two constituencies made a different choice.

Let’s be clear: Ashford and Ebbsfleet stations were always political projects. They were attempts to stimulate economic growth. They were not logical places to be connected to Paris or Brussels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it's very sad. What is surprising to me anyway is that they are closed for all of next year too. Eurostar clearly anticipating no significant rise in demand next year, either, which is worrying.

Realistic, more like. Even if we get a decent handle on COVID here, I would say international travel is certain to be badly disrupted for 2-3 years.

 

[alex397]

If you live in Kent its usually cheaper to take your car through Eurotunnel and park at the free car park at Frethun station and get the TGV to Paris. If I was going to Lille and my destination was more than a walk from the station I'd drive the whole way.
In terms of distance from my house by car Brussels is about the same as Birmingham, Paris as Stoke on Trent and Amsterdam Carlisle.
Generally the journey times are quicker (including the shuttle) because of less congestion. Driving in France isn't really an issue for people down here.

If you are lucky enough to be able to drive or to own a car. And many people prefer to ‘let the train take the strain’. Driving can be very stressful for some. I take your point though, for those who have the option.

This is a backwards step, but I accept it’s not very surprising.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are lucky enough to be able to drive or to own a car. And many people prefer to ‘let the train take the strain’. Driving can be very stressful for some. I take your point though, for those who have the option.

There do exist trains to London from Kent!

 

[alex397]

There do exist trains to London from Kent!

I’m well aware of that. But High Speed train tickets add to the cost, especially if travelling in the peak. There is also usually a queue at St Pancras for security, whereas Ebbsfleet and Ashford are usually a breeze. St Pancras gets very crowded too (pre-Covid anyway). So, adding the time and the cost makes it very different.

From my house in Kent, it takes 30 minutes to walk to my station, and travel on train to Ashford. I usually get to Ashford 45-60 mins before the train is due to leave. It is a lot more convenient than having to travel to London.

 

[Meole]

Presumably customer demand at these stations has bombed and is not expected to return soon, the union are asking for HMG intervention to avoid proposed redundancies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably customer demand at these stations has bombed and is not expected to return soon, the union are asking for HMG intervention to avoid proposed redundancies.

I guess the issue is having to pay for security staff etc if nobody is using it - if it was a "normal" train you wouldn't require any staff on the stations and so you could continue stopping.

 

[paul1609]

If you are lucky enough to be able to drive or to own a car. And many people prefer to ‘let the train take the strain’. Driving can be very stressful for some. I take your point though, for those who have the option.

This is a backwards step, but I accept it’s not very surprising.

Take a random journey going to Paris tomorrow morning coming back on tuesday:

Eurostar:
Week parking @ Ashford £30
Off Peak Return to St Pancras £40
Eurostar return £240
Total £310 plus £280 per extra person

Car to Calais, TGV
80 miles of Diesel £15
Le Shuttle Period Return £104
TGV Frethun to Paris £70
Total £189 plus £70 per extra person.

Whilst I accept that some people don't want to drive its not very difficult to see why the market for Eurostar from Ashford is pretty small . They have simply priced themselves out of the market, this has been coming for a longtime.

 

[Starmill]

The costs to Eurostar to resume border control and tunnel security, as well as employing their own staff, for a mere handful of services from Ashford and only a few more from Ebbsfleet, will be enormous. And for the benefit of hardly any custom. Eurostar will also be able to eliminate the time penalty in their December timetable presumably!

It's similar to the withdrawal of the 'Ski Train' and Marseille services in that they're eliminating cost permanently. They will be able to generate growth from Amsterdam if market conditions improve, which is far more cost effective. There is also far more potential volume in Amsterdam and Rotterdam to London for rail than there could possibly ever be from Marseille and Lyon or the Alps. Or anywhere to Ashford.

 

[paul1609]

The costs to Eurostar to resume border control and tunnel security, as well as employing their own staff, for a mere handful of services from Ashford and only a few more from Ebbsfleet, will be enormous. And for the benefit of hardly any custom. Eurostar will also be able to eliminate the time penalty in their December timetable presumably!

In a short While, Eurostar will be a shuttle: St Pancras, Lille (for Brussels and Amsterdam) and Paris North I fear.

 

[yorksrob]

Let’s be clear: Ashford and Ebbsfleet stations were always political projects. They were attempts to stimulate economic growth. They were not logical places to be connected to Paris or Brussels.

I don't think that's true at all of Ashford.

It's the natural place to connect to other train services from all over Kent. It's ridiculous to expect people from Canterbury and Folkestone to shlep all the way in the opposite direction to London to catch the train.

 

[StephenHunter]

In a short While, Eurostar will be a shuttle: St Pancras, Lille (for Brussels and Amsterdam) and Paris North I fear.

Eurostar still is planning a merger with Thalys to create Greenspeed. The demand was certainly there before the pandemic and even after Brexit it will still be there. People won't stop going abroad just because we've left the EU.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think that's true at all of Ashford.

It's the natural place to connect to other train services from all over Kent. It's ridiculous to expect people from Canterbury and Folkestone to shlep all the way in the opposite direction to London to catch the train.

It's "natural" in the geographic sense, but demand-wise it's always going to be the poor relation to London demand.

My sense is that e* basically just use Ebbsfleet and Ashford to fill up demand on quieter departures.

At the times of day its easier to fill trains completely with London passengers, then they don't stop again before the tunnel. E.g. Ebbsfleet's continent-bound calls are entitely before mid-afternoon*, before evening demand kicks in.

*Possibly also to staff the station on a single shift, I suspect.

 

[43066]

I don't think that's true at all of Ashford.

It's the natural place to connect to other train services from all over Kent. It's ridiculous to expect people from Canterbury and Folkestone to shlep all the way in the opposite direction to London to catch the train.

But travellers to and from these places will be a tiny part of the overall Eurostar market. The majority of Eurostar users will be cash rich but time poor travellers wanting to go from city centre to city centre.

 

[Horizon22]

This is a shame. Ashford already had a very low number of trains (4tpd?) but was useful for South Kent and Ebbsfleet for the North and Medway but with additional services. Southeastern built connections in around then and have become hubs (Ebbsfleet still missing a decent walkway to the North Kent line though).

Passenger demand was small, but there was still a good market that used them and is a loss of joined up connectivity. A SE HS service takes 40-45 minutes from Ashford, so it's not the end of the world and I'm not hugely surprised, but it is extra cost & inconvenience for those interested.

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure Eurostar could negotiate through tickets from Ashford and Ebbsfleet on Southeastern at discount rates if they were interested. To correct the earlier figure the current rate from Ashford International to London International is £35.70 return.

 

[43066]

Passenger demand was small, but there was still a good market that used them and is a loss of joined up connectivity. A SE HS service takes 40-45 minutes from Ashford, so it's not the end of the world and I'm not hugely surprised, but it is extra cost & inconvenience for those interested.

Another issue is that E320s are unable to stop at Ashford due to incompatibility with the signalling (IIRC) thus posing an additional operational headache having to ensure that only E300s are diagrammed onto the via Ashford services.

 

[StephenHunter]

I'm sure Eurostar could negotiate through tickets from Ashford and Ebbsfleet on Southeastern at discount rates if they were interested. To correct the earlier figure the current rate from Ashford International to London International is £35.70 return.

Or someone could, in the future, create an Ashford-Calais day trip service. Not likely at the moment of course.

 

[pdeaves]

Anyone know when this 'mothballing' takes effect?

 

[StephenHunter]

Immediate. They're not currently calling there.

 

[pdeaves]

Anyone know when this 'mothballing' takes effect?

Edit: There appears to be nothing on RTT so rephrasing the question: Anyone know when this 'mothballing' took effect?

 

[alex397]

Another issue is that E320s are unable to stop at Ashford due to incompatibility with the signalling (IIRC) thus posing an additional operational headache having to ensure that only E300s are diagrammed onto the via Ashford services.

The £10 million upgrade at Ashford to enable compatibility with the e320 units certainly isn't paying off!

I do believe the problem has now been rectified with the e320s, with them stopping at Ashford before lockdown. Although I can't find a source for this now, so I may be wrong. There is at least a video of an e320 arriving at Ashford and picking up passengers in January 2020.

 

[StephenHunter]

Anyone know when this 'mothballing' takes effect?

Edit: There appears to be nothing on RTT so rephrasing the question: Anyone know when this 'mothballing' took effect?

Back in March with lockdown and the French border restrictions. Can't recall the exact date.

 

[43066]

The £10 million upgrade at Ashford to enable compatibility with the e320 units certainly isn't paying off!

I do believe the problem has now been rectified with the e320s, with them stopping at Ashford before lockdown. Although I can't find a source for this now, so I may be wrong.

You may well be right. It was certainly a long standing problem which was still an issue last time I recall discussing it on here. It may well have been sorted in the interim, just in time for the services to be mothballed!

What a pity.

 

[peteb]

Seems to me there's a market in Kent for a coach operator to run a permanent rail replacement Ashford International to Calais Frethun service via eurotunnel. That would probably work out much cheaper than going into London only to come all the way back again! And with customs dealt with via Eurotunnel it would leave passengers free to jump on a TGV or TER at Frethun and thus wider access to northern France.