Eurostar not serving Kent.

[zwk500]

The rail journey takes 7 mins, but you have to build in waiting time, transit time on lifts escalators and a back up plan in case of delays etc all with luggage and if catching an early Eurostar it certainly has just put me off using it to Rotterdam, as it is if I am connecting I may as well just go to city airport and have a quicker journey time.

A lot of travellers will be using it for business, there are huge numbers of businesses relocating to Stratford now, it seems senseless to have built a station costing billions only to penny pinch over over relatively small security costs. You would have thought the landlords at the Olympic Park would have been asked to / or offered to pay to support it given the increase in attractiveness it could provide for the site.

It's not penny pinching over security costs. The primary reason is that the extra time taken for the stop and impact that has on the capacity of the line means if Eurostar stopped at Stratford you wouldn't be able to run as many trains in a day. The extra time for the Stratford stop is something like 7 minutes for an E300/Cl.373, which makes a difference when you're competing on centre-to-centre times against an aeroplane. Somebody with access to the SRTs will need to let us know what the penalty is for an E320/Cl.374.

There is an element of cost to it, in that if you stop any international train at any of the 3 intermediate stations, you need to stop a minimum number of trains to justify the operating costs of the security and border force requirements. This minimum viable number of trains then exacerbates the capacity problems outlined above.

 

[ShadowKnight]

I still think that if there was a lower cost ouigo type service that terminated at one of the three regional stations would work as people would put up with less inconvenience for a lower cost

 

[Trainbike46]

I still think that if there was a lower cost ouigo type service that terminated at one of the three regional stations would work as people would put up with less inconvenience for a lower cost

if you were to completely end a service at Stratford you'd eat even more capacity than by stopping there on a service that continues to St Pancras (as having everyone get on or off will take longer), and why would it be cheaper to run from there anyway?

 

[zwk500]

I still think that if there was a lower cost ouigo type service that terminated at one of the three regional stations would work as people would put up with less inconvenience for a lower cost

if you were to completely end a service at Stratford you'd eat even more capacity than by stopping there on a service that continues to St Pancras (as having everyone get on or off will take longer), and why would it be cheaper to run from there anyway?

In theory terminating in the platform is less obstructive as the through line remains unobstructed. You would sit there until the next gap. If you're going forward to St P to turn around, it's not too bad. If you wanted to avoid 30 mins of empty running every time, you'd be making a wrong road move back towards Ebbsfleet, which will knacker the timetable. But we're drifting into speculative again.

 

[route101]

I still think that if there was a lower cost ouigo type service that terminated at one of the three regional stations would work as people would put up with less inconvenience for a lower cost

Love to see a lower cost service like Ouigo serve the UK!

 

[zwk500]

Love to see a lower cost service like Ouigo serve the UK!

If you want that, you'll need it to be politically acceptable to have no immigration checks on travel between France and the UK. Good luck!

 

[Benjwri]

If you want that, you'll need it to be politically acceptable to have no immigration checks on travel between France and the UK. Good luck!

As long as the service ran between stations such as Stratford and Ebbsfleet and those which have immigration facilities in the EU, there's no reason why this is true. It's likely more true that the track usage costs on the Chunnel and HS1 don't allow a service much cheaper than the Eurostar to be financially viable.

 

[zwk500]

As long as the service ran between stations such as Stratford and Ebbsfleet and those which have immigration facilities in the EU, there's no reason why this is true. It's likely more true that the track usage costs on the Chunnel and HS1 don't allow a service much cheaper than the Eurostar to be financially viable.

Somebody's got to pay for the staff that operate those facilities, and it certainly won't be any arm of HM Govt. Given that Eurostar are never going to call at Stratford, they'd be on the hook for all the costs, probably including the final fitout that was never completed. Those costs don't just dissappear, they will have to be covered by income of some sort.

 

[Benjwri]

Somebody's got to pay for the staff that operate those facilities, and it certainly won't be any arm of HM Govt. Given that Eurostar are never going to call at Stratford, they'd be on the hook for all the costs, probably including the final fitout that was never completed. Those costs don't just dissappear, they will have to be covered by income of some sort.

I do believe that cost actually falls on HS1 Ltd, as their concession for HS1 states they must provide the facilities for international services. Obviously they can pass these costs on, but by how much is limited, and falls under the expensive track access costs

 

[zwk500]

I do believe that cost actually falls on HS1 Ltd, as their concession for HS1 states they must provide the facilities for international services. Obviously they can pass these costs on, but by how much is limited, and falls under the expensive track access costs

Read your post again, carefully. Why do you think track access costs might be expensive?

I've not gone through every law and contract relating to HS1 ltd, but given the concession for the line is owned by Pension funds any proposal involving HS1 covering a shortfall will not last long. Given HM Treasury's financial situation at the moment, any proposal where UK Govt money would cover said shortfall will also not last very long.

 

[E27007]

I travelled St Pancras to Ashford by HS1, South Eastern Javelin units, , out Sunday evening around 2030 hours, and returned today in the morning departing around 0830 hours, the passenger loadings were about 5% or less in both directions, fare £41.50 return ,booked on the day, not an advance ticket. What is the profit/loss situation for the South Eastern St Pancras to Kent operation?

 

[richa2002]

But post Brexit, it's just another acceptable loss so we can have a blue passport!

By all means have a sensible discussion about the pros and cons of Brexit, but the continual oh-so-amusing aside that people voted to leave the EU primarily because of a passport colour shows you have made near to no attempt to understand 'leavers'.

To stay more on topic, it's a great shame to see this service go. That is the cost of bureaucratic nonsense and is the cause of so many "nice" things we used to all enjoy.

 

[zwk500]

To stay more on topic, it's a great shame to see this service go. That is the cost of bureaucratic nonsense and is the cause of so many "nice" things we used to all enjoy.

Avoidable bureaucratic nonsense caused by Brexit.

 

[Chester1]

Avoidable bureaucratic nonsense caused by Brexit.

EU and UK are only copying successful visa waiver schemes elsewhere. US got the ball rolling with ESTA about 15 years ago. Canada and Australia have since adopted them. They are becoming the norm for passport zones in the developed world. There are reasonable arguments against EES, ETIAS and UK ETA but a basic criminal / security check on non citizens entering UK or Schengen zone isn't "bureaucratic nonesense". The first fingerprinting will cause disruption but the difference vs pre brexit travel will be very mimimal once the system has settled in.

Its worth noting that Kent and Disneyland cuts are subject to review. Once EES and ETIAS have settled in they should be reinstated, unless post pandemic travel changes have reduced the flows too much.

 

[BahrainLad]

I can't seem to get a conclusive answer to this: will UK citizens entering the EU under ETIAS have to be fingerprinted *once*, or on *every* entry?

 

[XAM2175]

I can't seem to get a conclusive answer to this: will UK citizens entering the EU under ETIAS have to be fingerprinted *once*, or on *every* entry?

From my experience with other jurisdictions it will most probably be on every entry, but only one or two fingers. They'll be looking to confirm that the person bearing a passport is the person described by the passport above and beyond matching the photograph. The UK already does this to foreign citizens entering with British residence permits, for example. However it's possible that it will only be on first entry if they believe that computerised facial recognition is sufficiently reliable for subsequent entry.

 

[zwk500]

I can't seem to get a conclusive answer to this: will UK citizens entering the EU under ETIAS have to be fingerprinted *once*, or on *every* entry?

This page: https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/visa-information-system should help:

Personal data is stored in the Visa Information System for 5 years, beginning on:

• The expiry date of the visa, or
• The date of a negative visa decision, or
• The date a decision was made to modify a visa.

As data is stored for 5 years, frequent travellers do not need to provide their prints each time they go to a Schengen nation.

 

[BahrainLad]

This page: https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/visa-information-system should help:

Thanks, but that's what I mean: that website (very clearly) says that it's unofficial and nothing to do with the EU, so I would be hesitant to rely on it for accurate/up-to-date information.

If you look at the offical ETIAS factsheet here: https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2018-04/20180425_etias_en.pdf it would indicate (on page 2) that fingerprinting is required at every entry. And the factsheet on the Entry/Exit System (which dovetails with ETIAS) also indicates this (for example, by mentioning self-service booths at EU borders) https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2016-12/factsheet_-_entryexit_system_en.pdf

Is this why Eurostar (and the Port of Dover) are so concerned?

 

[Benjwri]

Thanks, but that's what I mean: that website (very clearly) says that it's unofficial and nothing to do with the EU, so I would be hesitant to rely on it for accurate/up-to-date information.

If you look at the offical ETIAS factsheet here: https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2018-04/20180425_etias_en.pdf it would indicate (on page 2) that fingerprinting is required at every entry. And the factsheet on the Entry/Exit System (which dovetails with ETIAS) also indicates this (for example, by mentioning self-service booths at EU borders) https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2016-12/factsheet_-_entryexit_system_en.pdf

Is this why Eurostar (and the Port of Dover) are so concerned?

Although that website is unofficial, Thales has been elected by at least France and Spain to supply their border solutions, and therefore have a detailed understanding, and say the following on their website:

The new one combines four fingerprints and a portrait for facial recognition on entry, although either of these is acceptable for an exit.

The face is now the key to opening border crossings. The technology involved has progressed significantly over the last few years and supports traditional fingerprinting methods.

Although the European Commission no longer uses the RTP principle, it is present in all but name.

But we're jumping ahead. Here's the process.

• Four fingerprints will still be taken at the first check to verify that the traveller is not already listed in the EES or VIS.
• In the absence of a signal, the border authority will create a file, ensuring that the photograph in the Machine Readable Travel Document corresponds to the new visitor's live facial image.
  
• When they next cross a border, their face will determine whether or not they are let in.

This heavily suggests that fingerprints are only taken once to check against other systems, but for future visits it is entirely reliant on facial recognition.

 

[BahrainLad]

Although that website is unofficial, Thales has been elected by at least France and Spain to supply their border solutions, and therefore have a detailed understanding, and say the following on their website:

This heavily suggests that fingerprints are only taken once to check against other systems, but for future visits it is entirely reliant on facial recognition.

OK great that’s helpful. Thanks.

Hopefully it will be as quick and seamless as US Global Entry is now (at least at JFK) where you just walk up to the kiosk and it recognises your face and spits out a receipt in seconds. Quite frighteningly fast actually!

 

[Benjwri]

US Global Entry is now (at least at JFK) where you just walk up to the kiosk and it recognises your face and spits out a receipt in seconds.

Hopefully it doesn't always rely on fingerprints like the US did, I have a skin condition where they can never read them and have made a few too many visits to the basements of US airports to be manually processed

 

[Chester1]

OK great that’s helpful. Thanks.

Hopefully it will be as quick and seamless as US Global Entry is now (at least at JFK) where you just walk up to the kiosk and it recognises your face and spits out a receipt in seconds. Quite frighteningly fast actually!

ETIAS and UK ETA are heavily designed on ESTA. It will be a similar experience for regular British travelers to EU and regular British travellers to US now. The main difference seems to be EES being seperate to ETIAS. It will be a national government decision whether to allow Brits to use e gates. I think the French might be awkward but most Schengen members will alow registered Brits to use e gates again as soon as Schengen rules allow.

 

[BahrainLad]

ESTA is quite different to Global Entry though. The latter requires an initial interview with a US CBP officer for example.

 

[Chester1]

ESTA is quite different to Global Entry though. The latter requires an initial interview with a US CBP officer for example.

Ah I see what you mean. Its probably going to be like Global Entry for entry into most EU member states. The key will be which members allow Brits to use E gates. If France doesn't St Pancras, Ashford and Ebbsfleet passport controls would be more like entering US under ESTA than Global Entry. French management of the new system shouldn't effect viability of Ebbsfleet and Ashford once its settled in. The main issue will be deal with a large proportion of passengers having to be fingerprinted for first entry under new system.

 

[BluePenguin]

As long as the service ran between stations such as Stratford and Ebbsfleet and those which have immigration facilities in the EU, there's no reason why this is true. It's likely more true that the track usage costs on the Chunnel and HS1 don't allow a service much cheaper than the Eurostar to be financially viable.

Considering how close Ashford is to the channel tunnel anyway there would be little to gain from using HS1 after that point. Might as well run non stop along the third rail to the tunnel that way to save costs, as Eurostar used to.

The Javelins are hardly slow zooming through the platforms of Sandling and Westenhanger. I assume the tracks to the tunnel are still in use from this side?

 

[paul1609]

Considering how close Ashford is to the channel tunnel anyway there would be little to gain from using HS1 after that point. Might as well run non stop along the third rail to the tunnel that way to save costs, as Eurostar used to.

The Javelins are hardly slow zooming through the platforms of Sandling and Westenhanger. I assume the tracks to the tunnel are still in use from this side?

Eurostar dont own any stock that can use the British third rail dc system or aws/tpws signalling systems. Class 374 are out of gauge for anything but HS1 and platforms 3 & 4 at Ashford.

 

[py_megapixel]

Eurostar dont own any stock that can use the British third rail dc system or aws/tpws signalling systems. Class 374 are out of gauge for anything but HS1 and platforms 3 & 4 at Ashford.

They still have some of the older Alstom stock though.

 

[BluePenguin]

Eurostar dont own any stock that can use the British third rail dc system or aws/tpws signalling systems. Class 374 are out of gauge for anything but HS1 and platforms 3 & 4 at Ashford.

I meant a cheaper operator that stopped at Kent stations could potentially run on the third rail as it would be cheaper than HS1. Ashford’s international platforms still have third rails too

 

[paul1609]

They still have some of the older Alstom stock though.

believe the third rail capability was removed when hs1 opened and TPWS/ Aws when Ashford was fitted with KVB.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2022 ==

I meant a cheaper operator that stopped at Kent stations could potentially run on the third rail as it would be cheaper than HS1. Ashford’s international platforms still have third rails too

The International platforms at Ashford are a different size to accomodate UIC stock. UIC stock wont fit through the tunnels on the classic route or more or less anywhere else on the uk rail system until HS2 opens.
Domestic stock is not allowed to use platforms 3/4 at Ashford because the platforms are too low and theres too big a gap. When 395s used the "international" platforms at Stratford during the 2012 Olympics the platforms had temporary plywood extensions fitted.

 

[BRX]

Letter from E* CEO

https://twitter.com/EurostarJustinp/status/1574711574337495041

(Twitter post contains images of letter from eurostar CEO explaining reasons for cuts to services. Because they are images I can't easily quote the text, sorry)