Euston overcrowding concerns

[TheSmiths82]

The advance ticket point is highly relevant, and I'm surprised it hasn't been considered by the authorities. It's inevitable that you will look to arrive earlier at your departure station if the penalty for missing your train is the cost of a walk-up ticket. A half hour delay if you're 2 mins late for a Manchester train? - no problem - I'll take a chance. £185 for a new peak time ticket? ok, now I'm making damn sure I get there in time.

I did use Avanti singles on my last trip to London but that is only because I got a rather good discount via third party scheme (Discount for Teachers). Normally I go via LNW and change at Crewe on an off peak return because it isn't much slower by the time I factor in I don't need to wait as long at Euston, the journey is also more interesting due more frequent stops. I struggle to justify the £104 (current prices I think) off peak return when you consider LNW is half the price and coaches are even less.

Part of me thinks Network Rail wants people to hang around at stations though, the more footfall they have at stations the higher the rents they can charge on their retail/food units. Hopefully even if HS2 doesn't go to Manchester, it will free up some capacity at Euston for a better service for passengers travelling further North on the WCML. I assume the HS2 terminus at Euston will be a different building?

 

[gazzaa2]

Utter chaos again today/tonight

 

[Boodiggy]

Utter chaos again today/tonight

In reaction to earlier fatality. Station full and trains platformed back north of MKC. Will be a long night. Nothing in equals nothing out.

 

[uglymonkey]

Why is it always Euston? St Pan and Kings Cross never seem to consistently have this level of difficulty?

 

[Omnishambles]

The main ramps to 4-7 and 12-15 have a middle gate which could be an exit fitted with one way valve doors as found at airports for exit.

From my time there that was a standard practice, all the time whilst departing passengers were ‘ramped’ either side at least 15mins before departure. Overall situation for me not helped by the new screens and the mezzanine which could have been designed better. What gets me is the ’new’ access / egress to and from LUL which is poorly thought out as well in that area.

 

[Boodiggy]

Why is it always Euston? St Pan and Kings Cross never seem to consistently have this level of difficulty?

Most will be the TOC not able to recover the service at times like this.

 

[gazzaa2]

Why is it always Euston? St Pan and Kings Cross never seem to consistently have this level of difficulty?

Euston tends to really struggle whenever things go wrong. A fatality will cause a lot of ongoing disruption but the incident happened at half 12 near Milton Keynes (over 6 hours ago now) and Euston services haven't recovered with few trains going anywhere. It'll be chaos until the end of play tonight.

 

[Boodiggy]

Sure will be. Very poor from AWC.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It's a lot to do with the Avanti services there and people using them for leisure and long distance so people turn up earlier but also it's not letting people board trains early while they're in the platform, I'm pretty sure Liverpool Street would have the same crush at peak if Greater Anglia had the same policy. At any one moment I reckon at Liverpool Street there could be somewhere near 1000 passengers sitting on trains waiting for them to leave.

 

[gazzaa2]

Gates needing to be closed to ease overcrowding:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F80iki4XIAAd5JH?format=jpg&name=900x900

 

[Brooke]

Sure will be. Very poor from AWC.

My wife is stuck in an AWC train stood somewhere near Nuneaton.

The guard told the whole train that “Euston is full of trains and no drivers will move them”.

So I suppose work to rule and no spare drivers is causing today to be such a fiasco?

 

[Boodiggy]

Some will be the Industrial Action but AWC should have done better. The IA is having an impact but this shows how poorly AWC can recover with unit and crew diagrams just not working and their resource and control teams being 100 miles apart.
Trains now moving out of Euston so hopefully your wife will be moving soon.

 

[Brooke]

Some will be the Industrial Action but AWC should have done better. The IA is having an impact but this shows how poorly AWC can recover with unit and crew diagrams just not working and their resource and control teams being 100 miles apart.
Trains now moving out of Euston so hopefully your wife will be moving soon.

Well, that’s a positive then if something is moving!

As an aside, she travels weekly on AWC, and so far this year she has had delay on every single journey, so I guess she’s used to it!

It’s the folk standing for the last several hours that she feels sorry for - whatever train she’s on, she says there’s been people stodd since 4pm.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Yeah this is nothing new. AWC have sent away some 221s recently though which has only made it worse. Why send them away? They were needed for capacity purposes.

 

[32475]

When the new Euston opened the concourse was spacious and uninterrupted. Its size has steadily been reduced particularly by the food outlets on the Euston Road side but also in other parts of the perimeter, and there's various things appeared in the middle that provide obstructions. But it seems that the rental income is so great that it's been decided to make it a food hall that has some trains.
Much the same at Paddington; it's reasonable to guess that most people who arrive there will leave by tube. There was a brief period when access from the barriers to the underground entrance could be in a straight line, but soon an obstacle course was put in place. Presumably, some marketing guru thinks that if your transit is impeeded by a shop selling something you didn't know you wanted, you'll delay your journey to patronise it.

I tend to agree with you Merle. This late 1960’s image shows how uncluttered Euston was before it became a shopping mall. This also reminds you that with little or no catering on trains nowadays compared to the 1960’s, travellers have to rely on food outlets before boarding a train rather than when they’re actually on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I tend to agree with you Merle. This late 1960’s image shows how uncluttered Euston was before it became a shopping mall. This also reminds you that with little or no catering on trains nowadays compared to the 1960’s, travellers have to rely on food outlets before boarding a train rather than when they’re actually on it.
View attachment 145083

Also possibly put as "due to the much wider range of quality station outlets available, there is less demand for an on board gristleburger and tepid cup of Maxpax".

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Also possibly put as "due to the much wider range of quality station outlets available, there is less demand for an on board gristleburger and tepid cup of Maxpax".

At least you did not fall down the "BR Sandwich" trap - well overdone that one.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I tend to agree with you Merle. This late 1960’s image shows how uncluttered Euston was before it became a shopping mall. This also reminds you that with little or no catering on trains nowadays compared to the 1960’s, travellers have to rely on food outlets before boarding a train rather than when they’re actually on it.
View attachment 145083

Thanks, interesting picture. For those who can't place it, it's looking towards Eversholt Street with Euston Road on the right. The enclosure to the right was the Underground access.
Even the space at the far end has been encroached upon with the escalators to the 1st cl Lounge etc. It was designed envisioning increasing numbers of passengers but sadly greed for income became more important.
I'm not sure that 1960s train catering was that great (I was there!) ; buffets only open from Rugby to Crewe on Manchesters, for instance, and instant coffee and very limited choice of food - just sandwiches and chocolate.
Station catering was poor then, though; there were no sell-by dates. Does anyone remember those illuminated glass fronted, heated cabinets full of pies and pasties that sat on the counter top to tempt (?) you? How to breed salmonella...

At least you did not fall down the "BR Sandwich" trap - well overdone that one.

Very recently, I heard a politician respond to a question about the possible re-nationalisation of the railkways and he said 'B.R. Sandwiches - ugh!'.
Two points i) the last 'B.R. sandwich' must have been about 1996 - he wasn't old enough to remember them accurately and
ii) you mean the 'B.R. Sandwiches' as designed by Pru Leith (and another chef I can't remember).

 

[Hadders]

I tend to agree with you Merle. This late 1960’s image shows how uncluttered Euston was before it became a shopping mall. This also reminds you that with little or no catering on trains nowadays compared to the 1960’s, travellers have to rely on food outlets before boarding a train rather than when they’re actually on it.
View attachment 145083

Many more passengers these days. Other than the Underground entrance now being accessed from outside the station rather than being on the main concourse, and the addition of the mezzanine (with associated escalators) what other space that we can see in that photo has gone over to other use?

In the 1990s there were shops built around some of the pillars but these went years ago.

 

[TPO]

I wonder why it took from Sep 26th until today for ORR to publish its Improvement Notice?

Must wait until the 21 day window for appeal has passed. An appeal would suspend the Notice, and of course if the appeal then quashes the Notice it would never be published.

TPO

 

[Brissle Girl]

Must wait until the 21 day window for appeal has passed. An appeal would suspend the Notice, and of course if the appeal then quashes the Notice it would never be published.

TPO

Thanks!

 

[sheff1]

I'm not sure that 1960s train catering was that great (I was there!) ; buffets only open from Rugby to Crewe on Manchesters, for instance, and instant coffee and very limited choice of food - just sandwiches and chocolate.

Don't know about the 60s but train catering on the WCML in the 70s was very good - sensibly priced silver service breakfast on the way up and dinner going back (usually went for one or the other, rather than both, but often had the two when using the Midland Scot from Birmingham to Glasgow). Agree the coffee (filter, I think) was poor by today's standards but getting a decent coffee pretty much anywhere in the UK was rare back then.

As for station catering, the waitress service restaurant at New St served decent food even if the decor was rather spartan - plenty of non travellers used it as well.

Going back to the the thread title, the concourse at Euston seemed much more open than now and, when the Shuttle concept was introduced, a Birmingham train was due to be available at a platform for boarding at all times and usually was, which meant no need to wait on the concourse anyway.

Of course we will never go back to such things ..... such is progress ... but there seems no obvious reason why passengers can't be allowed onto the platform much earlier under normal circumstances (not approriate at times of major disruption obviously)

 

[TheSmiths82]

Is

Don't know about the 60s but train catering on the WCML in the 70s was very good - sensibly priced silver service breakfast on the way up and dinner going back (usually went for one or the other, rather than both, but often had the two when using the Midland Scot from Birmingham to Glasgow). Agree the coffee (filter, I think) was poor by today's standards but getting a decent coffee pretty much anywhere in the UK was rare back then.

As for station catering, the waitress service restaurant at New St served decent stuff even if the decor was rather spartan - plenty of non travellers used it as well.

Going back to the the thread title, the concourse at Euston seemed much more open than now and, when the Shuttle concept was introduced, a Birmingham train was due to be available at a platform for boarding at all times and usually was, which meant no need to wait on the concourse anyway.

Of course we will never go back to such things ..... such is progress ... but there seems no obvious reason why passengers can't be allowed onto the platform much earlier under normal circumstances (not approriate at times of major disruption obviously)

Is there any reason why we can't go back to this? E.g from Manchester to London there is are three trains Avanti trains every hour so you could easily have a train at the platform at all times without actually needing any extra trains or causing delays. There is pretty much is a train ready to board at all times anyway we are just not allowed to get on it. I get why they want to charge more at peak times etc, but is there any other logical reason for this? Would there be a big afternoon lull if this was introduced with overcrowding on the early and late off peak trains?

 

[AndrewE]

Station catering was poor then, though; there were no sell-by dates. Does anyone remember those illuminated glass fronted, heated cabinets full of pies and pasties that sat on the counter top to tempt (?) you? How to breed salmonella...


Very recently, I heard a politician respond to a question about the possible re-nationalisation of the railkways and he said 'B.R. Sandwiches - ugh!'.
Two points i) the last 'B.R. sandwich' must have been about 1996 - he wasn't old enough to remember them accurately and
ii) you mean the 'B.R. Sandwiches' as designed by Pru Leith (and another chef I can't remember).

Clement Freud, who was once a chef, and food writer. The sandwiches were actually quite good, I remember his corned beef and Branston pickle, which is why we always have a tin of corned beef on standby in the pantry. Sadly the music-hall joke was more powerful than any impartial review. See https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2009/apr/16/clement-freud-obituary

His work to improve the standard of food dispensed by public institutions such as British Rail proceeded on the back of the media publicity generated by his involvement. He was revered in the 1990s for supposedly bringing trains into the poached salmon (with Chinese leaf, dill and dijon mustard) belt

And re salmonella, and how (not) to breed it. A cooked pie comes from the maker relatively sterile, and if not unwrapped (and contaminated) will stay safe to eat for long enough, especially in a glass case. My first job was evenings in a pub and at the end of the night a left-over pie would sometimes be offered to me. They were nice enough but a bit dry! I don't think they were wrapped back then, just in a foil tray, but I doubt that anybody ever got ill from them.

 

[4COR]

There was a similar situation at London Victoria after it was modernised. Pedestrian flow between the LB&SCR and SE sides was initially improved and almost immediately stymied by retail outlets popping up.

Is there really that much flow between the Central and Eastern sides of Lon Victoria? In all my years of using it, the majority of the flow seemed to go straight down the concourse towards the tube/bus station.

It's nothing like the issues at Euston or Paddington where you are placing obstacles in the route of the common and quickest exits.

 

[spyinthesky]

For Kings X just use the underused over bridge.

 

[Western Sunset]

For Kings X just use the underused over bridge.

I see very few passengers using that bridge. Seems to be used more by staff accessing the offices on the eastern side of the station.

It's a nice quiet spot to take photos of the station, but for normal passengers, seems a totally redundant resource.

 

[Taunton]

I'd suggest the main problem is the late calling of the platforms, leading to lots of people standing staring at the screens. With relatively limited concourse space, that probably causes a blockage wherever the screens happen to be.

Would queueing on the ramps also help for Avanti departures? Clearly this would need platforms to be displayed early, making last minute replatforming more tricky, and also some kind of barrier and staff enforcement so arriving passengers could get off the platform.

The stuff about "Preparing" is often a fiction, the view from the barriers shows that commonly blow all is going on.

Time was when incoming trains would be met on arrival by the cleaners and catering stockists, and once they were done the train was opened to outward passengers. One of the issues is the modern curse of "targets". These may be set something like "95% of departures must be opened at least 10 minutes before departure". That's intended as a bottom line limit, nothing in there to stop opening things up earlier, but it starts to be seen by management that as long as they open by 10 minutes before, that is doing the job. What we used to describe as "Managing the figures rather than managing the business".

 

[edwin_m]

Is there really that much flow between the Central and Eastern sides of Lon Victoria? In all my years of using it, the majority of the flow seemed to go straight down the concourse towards the tube/bus station.

The situation at Victoria is very different. As mentioned, nearly all passengers have a train they can take within the next few minutes due to the lack of Advance tickets and the frequency of services, so there is very little hanging about. Also the layout of the station means that regulars (which is most people) will know which area the train will go from even no platform is shown.

At Euston the LNR platforms in the middle split the intercity services to either side, and if there's any logic as to which side a particular destination is served from then it's not evident to non-regulars (which is a lot more people than at Victoria). So although unlike Victoria there's a straight and reasonably logical barrier line, there are still some long walks if the train pops up on a high or low numbered platform. HS2 has helped in this by taking the very furthest platforms out of use.

One of the issues is the modern curse of "targets". These may be set something like "95% of departures must be opened at least 10 minutes before departure". That's intended as a bottom line limit, nothing in there to stop opening things up earlier, but it starts to be seen by management that as long as they open by 10 minutes before, that is doing the job. What we used to describe as "Managing the figures rather than managing the business".

Even if they just had, and came close to achieving, a target like that, then it sounds like things would be much better than they are now.

 

[uglymonkey]

Kings Cross you can sit on one of the "surburban" units for quite a while before it departs. 10-15 minutes,going through the gate line to do so. Sometimes, if familiar even prior to it being announced on which platform on the big orange board. But Euston have to have a scrum. I just hope one day a Mrs Wilberforce doesn't get hurt or worse.