Euston-Watford/North London DC Lines before London Overground

[nw1]

Again going off at a tangent somewhat, but related to one topic in the above discussion.

Were the estates (that we have been discussing) grim from the outset, right from they were built in the late 60s or early 70s? I get the impression they were not, and were supposedly quite smart and part of the whole modernisation drive of this period.

At some point, however, they became seriously grim and oppressive, home to poverty, and perhaps drugs and violence in the worst ones. It would be interesting to hear exactly when that happened; was it driven by the economic hard times of the late 70s and early 80s and (I realise this might be stirring up a hornets' nest) the policies of the first Thatcher government?

I do vaguely remember at some point in my life starting to associate these kinds of estates with grimness, poverty and trouble but I think this happened sometime in the 80s and more particularly the late 80s and early 90s. I vaguely remember seeing them in my childhood in the late 70s and early 80s and not thinking they looked grim - but this may have been down to childhood naivety, while by contrast my opinion later was down to having more awareness about the world.

 

[Sprinter107]

I never used that line in the days of the 501 emus. I'm very interested to know what they were like though. It sounds like the line and its stations were all very run down at one point. Were the 501s the same, or did Croxley Green depot keep them in good order ? Ypu never see photos of the interiors, and its very rare anyone describes them.
And was that line really as dangerous as people say it was, if so, when this become normal. I find it all very interesting.

 

[randyrippley]

I never used that line in the days of the 501 emus. I'm very interested to know what they were like though. It sounds like the line and its stations were all very run down at one point. Were the 501s the same, or did Croxley Green depot keep them in good order ? Ypu never see photos of the interiors, and its very rare anyone describes them.
And was that line really as dangerous as people say it was, if so, when this become normal. I find it all very interesting.

by the early 1970s the 501s were internally in many cases smashed to bits
Boarded up windows, missing seat cushions, no lighting, panelling kicked in, ceiling liner ripped down.
The stations on the NLL weren't much better with overall graffiti, smashed seating, lighting shot out. The stations were completely dark. I can remember one news report of an Indian teenager being raped and murdered at a station, may have been Brondesbury Park

 

[Sprinter107]

by the early 1970s the 501s were internally in many cases smashed to bits
Boarded up windows, missing seat cushions, no lighting, panelling kicked in, ceiling liner ripped down.
The stations on the NLL weren't much better with overall graffiti, smashed seating, lighting shot out. The stations were completely dark. I can remember one news report of an Indian teenager being raped and murdered at a station, may have been Brondesbury Park

Seriously ! They were that badly vandalised by the early 1970s ? I'm absolutely shocked.

 

[Belmont Circle]

Travelled on Class 501s in the 70s and 80s and don’t remember seeing that many carriages having been vandalised.
Also, don’t remember stations between Euston and a Watford being in a particularly bad state (in BR terms) as they were still manned. Often wondered why the platforms were so long - as they were longer than London Underground tube stocks that used them.
Class 501s always started off (and stopped) sharply - maybe because of the couplings. The ride would have been fine but for the jointed track condition.
(I seem to remember that they had 3 rates of acceleration - the fastest which was obtained in FWD2 then pressing a button, for use climbing Camden bank out of Euston).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Of course there were those that used the inter connecting doors on the 313 units for the same thing. Apparently out the window of a 501 compartment was the preferred method in olden days. The original compartments in the 501 could get a lot of vandalism, especially on football days.

Yes , the strong smell of disinfectant in the 313 car connections was regretably a feature of these sets. I could not believe the state internally of these sets when I took the job on in 1996 , and as we had spare sets because of the lesser service requirement (North London line blockade which over ran by a mere 6 months) , I got RT to fund a massive hand cleaning blitz of the 313's , inside and out. It really made a difference , and even normal passengers noticed. (That and changing the worse of the seat squabs) - nothing complicated , just proper interest in the job. (that and operating of course)

We never suffered from the serious graff damage that other parallel routes suffered by constantly washing the sets and not outstabling in vulnerable locations. That and removing even the smallest in service tags ....

The 501 acceleration paid off on one occasion - the driver , later a good controller , got the nickname "Fast Line Phil" to the end of his career.

He got signalled out of "the wood" at Euston in error by the PSB onto the down fast , no one noticed the error till departure had started Phil realising where he was heading sensibly opened up and cleared the throat till he ran out of con rail and coasted to a halt on the start of Camden bank. After some robust conversations , a light engine was quickly found (the fast lines being blocked of course) , and Phil's 501 was pushed back into the station and they had another go at getting the commuters home. I never had the courage to ask him about it , but he would have taken the matter with his normal good humour.

Many of the "motormen" were of long service and knew the route better than their own family - a typical career path was cleaner at Watford Junction steam shed , then out firing on the main line as soon as possible - 100 coal empties to Northampton with some bad coal and an indifferent engine , few "nice" firing runs on Tring commuters etc , so when the call came for driving , many went to the electric link which was for many years , 4 round trips on the DC and maybe lesser work (a mere 3 Broad St to Richmond on the NLL) - it was a pleasure to look through the files on these chaps when they retired to find very little officially recorded against them. Many valued the boredom ,by the reliability of getting home pretty much at booking off time. Once in the electric link , that was it. Generally.

 

[nw1]

Possibly of interest on multiple levels regarding this thread, from Wikipedia:

Stonebridge Park station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Date 1 September 1985, so presumably the very last days of the 501s. 6-car 501 with one unit still in BR blue, and, perhaps, hints in the background of the grittiness of the nearby estate.

 

[Ken H]

Why the window bars on the 501s. Tight Camden tunnels?

 

[bramling]

Possibly of interest on multiple levels regarding this thread, from Wikipedia:

Stonebridge Park station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Date 1 September 1985, so presumably the very last days of the 501s. 6-car 501 with one unit still in BR blue, and, perhaps, hints in the background of the grittiness of the nearby estate.

That could be the well-known derelict office block which got mentioned elsewhere on the thread. The Stonebridge estate is / was nearer to Harlesden. (I say is / was because today’s regenerated estate isn’t what the original was!).

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . a few times I would be there as a 501 empty stock shot through (with CY displayed for empties to Croxley sheds). The experience was a bit like when the Tardis lands in Dr Who - litter and detritus would start to shift, the rails would hum and then a cacophony let loose as the 501 shot through . . .

We never suffered from the serious graff damage that other parallel routes suffered by constantly washing the sets and not outstabling in vulnerable locations. That and removing even the smallest in service tags ....

Even before @ChiefPlanner's time, one thing I do recall was that - whatever the internal condition due to undiscerning 'customers', or the war zones they passed through - the Class 501s generally looked clean enough and graffiti-free on the outside. Even when tagging of carriages was becoming an issue on other routes and on lineside infrastructure.

Given the 501s spent their 30-ish years working both Watford and North London Lines, and were all based at Croxley Green depot throughout, I wondered if the units deployed on the NLL Broad Street/Richmond trains* ran empty to/from Croxley Green each day, or whether they were stabled somewhere on the NLL overnight? Presumably returning to Croxley after a programmed number of days for inspection and maintenance?

I have seen various photos of Broad Street in its declining years with what looks like several NLL 501s (showing tell-tale B4 headcodes) apparently stabled in the platforms there.

For example, this one taken on a Saturday afternoon in 1981.

Image shows three Class 501 EMUs in adjacent platforms at London Broad Street station.
One has front lights illuminated and is awaiting departure in passenger service to Richmond. Two more units are apparently parked and 'switched off'.
[Source: Wikimedia Commons. Copyright Phil Richards, reproduced under this licence.]

* With a 20-minute interval, it seems five sets were needed to maintain the basic NLL weekday service. There was no need to add peak extras to the Richmonds back then.

 

[Tester]

Why the window bars on the 501s. Tight Camden tunnels?

I believe due to tight clearances in Hampstead Tunnel on the North London line.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Even before @ChiefPlanner's time, one thing I do recall was that - whatever the internal condition due to undiscerning 'customers', or the war zones they passed through - the Class 501s generally looked clean enough and graffiti-free on the outside. Even when tagging of carriages was becoming an issue on other routes and on lineside infrastructure.

Given the 501s spent their 30-ish years working both Watford and North London Lines, and were all based at Croxley Green depot throughout, I wondered if the units deployed on the NLL Broad Street/Richmond trains* ran empty to/from Croxley Green each day, or whether they were stabled somewhere on the NLL overnight? Presumably returning to Croxley after a programmed number of days for inspection and maintenance?

I have seen various photos of Broad Street in its declining years with what looks like several NLL 501s (showing tell-tale B4 headcodes) apparently stabled in the platforms there.

For example, this one taken on a Saturday afternoon in 1981.

Image shows three Class 501 EMUs in adjacent platforms at London Broad Street station.
One has front lights illuminated and is awaiting departure in passenger service to Richmond. Two more units are apparently parked and 'switched off'.
[Source: Wikimedia Commons. Copyright Phil Richards, reproduced under this licence.]

* With a 20-minute interval, it seems five sets were needed to maintain the basic NLL weekday service. There was no need to add peak extras to the Richmonds back then.

Broad Street certainly stabled overnight , and there was a sole supervisor on the night shifts to keep an eye on the place , as well as to book on train crew for the early starters. It could be an eery place in the small hours I am advised.

I guess the worst era for internal vandalism was when the sole compartments were still in existance , (much like on the Southern inner suburbans) , coinciding with the peak of football fan yobbery.


Someone mentioned the dire state of some of the social housing blocks in Stonebrige and elsewhere - we have to remember the 1980's was an era of declining London population . such that it was easy to get accommodation in such places if you were brave enough to consider the challenges. I know people who got "hard to let" flats in the tower blocks near Euston , which were basically OK and a good place to start off in London. Maybe Camden was better than Brent.

The real problem was the growth of hard drugs - initially Heroin , later Crack. Something that seemed , in certain places and communities under a certain PM who once declared "there is no such thing as society" ,to became a real societal issue.

 

[sk688]

Going back to Stonebridge Park, a memory has come back to me.

I seem to remember somewhere in the Wembley / Willesden area (close to Willesden depot), noticing a particularly brutal-looking high-rise estate perhaps half a mile to a mile to the northeast (left of the railway if heading into Euston), with open land in front of it (not too much housing). It had, I think, a hexagonal slab of grim, concrete housing (perhaps 15-20 storeys high) on the edge, then one or two taller tower blocks behind.

It seemed quite isolated, with nothing similar in the immediate vicinity (whereas closer into Euston, there were larger and denser areas of tower blocks). Wondering if that was the Stonebridge Estate, if this wasn't a false memory. I can't remember when I saw it, but I have erratically used the WCML from time to time from 1989 to 2019.

Maybe the Unisys buildings near the a406 ? Been Abandoned since the late 90s at least though and pretty forlorn as a result

 

[A0wen]

Broad Street certainly stabled overnight , and there was a sole supervisor on the night shifts to keep an eye on the place , as well as to book on train crew for the early starters. It could be an eery place in the small hours I am advised.

I guess the worst era for internal vandalism was when the sole compartments were still in existance , (much like on the Southern inner suburbans) , coinciding with the peak of football fan yobbery.


Someone mentioned the dire state of some of the social housing blocks in Stonebrige and elsewhere - we have to remember the 1980's was an era of declining London population . such that it was easy to get accommodation in such places if you were brave enough to consider the challenges. I know people who got "hard to let" flats in the tower blocks near Euston , which were basically OK and a good place to start off in London. Maybe Camden was better than Brent.

The real problem was the growth of hard drugs - initially Heroin , later Crack. Something that seemed , in certain places and communities under a certain PM who once declared "there is no such thing as society" ,to became a real societal issue.

In the interests of balance - the oft quoted bit in bold is regularly taken out of context, here's the full quote:

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand ‘I have a problem, it is the Government’s job to cope with it!’ or ‘I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!’ ‘I am homeless, the Government must house me!’ and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first."

Margaret Thatcher: There’s No Such Thing as Society - New Learning Online

I'm not sure "society" can stop a bunch of yobs trashing a late night train - beyond the things which are already in place in the criminal justice system. Even the most 'ordered' places still have criminal damage - the places which tend not to are usually dictatorships where such criminal damage is punished far more severely than it would be in most democracies. I trust you're not advocating a dictatorship ?

 

[Taunton]

Maybe the Unisys buildings near the a406 ? Been Abandoned since the late 90s at least though and pretty forlorn as a result

That's the one I used to visit, as described above. The Unisys computer company was formed in 1985 from a merger of two previous mainstream companies, Sperry Univac, which did more technical computers, and Burroughs, which was more into commercial and finance. The Stonebridge building(s) had been architect-designed (Richard Seifert I think, once prominent - Centre Point and NatWest Tower) for Sperry; the Burroughs UK HQ was on the A4 next to Heathrow airport. It wasn't too far between the two, and both were pretty inaccessible by public transport for their professional staff who tended to live down the Thames Valley or along the M40, commuting by car, so as the Heathrow building was leased (from British Airways) and Stonebridge was owned outright, the unthinking decision was taken in in the USA HQ to merge into the latter. The walking route from Stonebridge station to the office was more tortuous than appears on a map - I never actually used it.

It was a calamitous business merger overall, and they ended up in a few years losing much of both their onetime key markets. Closing up Stonebridge in the mid-1990s and moving to much smaller premises, eventually writing off the considerable property value, nevertheless gave much saving in operating expenses. Their onetime finance director had always been bitter about the amount they paid in business rates to Brent Council, and the poor services received in return. There was once a standoff about how few they employed from the Stonebridge Estate, or from Brent overall.

The Unisys name was long derided by staff from both the former arms. My girlfriend of the time, on first hearing my employer's new name, immediately said it "sounded like Urine Analysis".

 

[Ken H]

Is the tower we are discussing this one? https://goo.gl/maps/jfXwP4ZdMvYaVxPv8
Sorry, not my area, but I have been in there long ago.

 

[Taunton]

Is the tower we are discussing this one? https://goo.gl/maps/jfXwP4ZdMvYaVxPv8
Sorry, not my area, but I have been in there long ago.

No. Spin that picture 90 degrees to the right, it's that one, on the opposite side of the A406.

 

[Ken H]

No. Spin that picture 90 degrees to the right, it's that one, on the opposite side of the A406.

Ah. Thanks

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder that this thread is for the discussion of the Euston to Watford DC lines before London Overground.

thanks

 

[philthetube]

I recall fasts running down the DC lines on one occasion when the mail lines were closed for engineering works, operated by 6 car 313's, but cannot begin to guess the date.

(Not that fast though)

 

[A0wen]

I recall fasts running down the DC lines on one occasion when the mail lines were closed for engineering works, operated by 6 car 313's, but cannot begin to guess the date.

(Not that fast though)

Can go better than 313s - as this video shows !

 

[Tester]

I recall fasts running down the DC lines on one occasion when the mail lines were closed for engineering works, operated by 6 car 313's, but cannot begin to guess the date.

(Not that fast though)

Main line trains have been diverted over the DC lines between Euston and Watford Junction in the past during engineering work. I don't have photos but someone else may.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

On several big blocks , certain I/C trains were put down the DC , - but the 25 mph restriction for non tripcock fitted trains was a bit of a showstopper - certainly , for example when the NLL bridge was replaced back in the 1980's a combination of very limited hand signalling on the mains , - (over 2 lines) was done , and key trains like the Holyhead HST's were put down the DC.
After the Watford accident of 1996 , a limited number of RES and mail trains were dealt with in the immediate aftermath. One enterprising RES driver used his 47 as a taxi to Watford and parked it in the DC platforms - a bit of a favour is some respects , as the 47 came in handy for recovery work . I might tell about that some day.

One issue was 23 metre vehicles on the sharply curved Bushey DC platforms - "dead slow" was the answer. Not sure that would happen today - ...........

Limited stop 6 car 313's were run post Watford - though we had to beg permission (to be fair - granted) post the Watford crash . The DC performed admirably over the Thursday evening to 0500 Monday am. Services almost round the clock feeding into main line which had 4 x 321 services per hour starting there on the slow lines , plus 3 an hour loco hauled / DVT services on the fast lines. Credit to the Bakerloo , who in the hours of need , rose to the challenge.

 

[randyrippley]

begs the question...........
was Broad St ever used to terminate main line services if Euston was closed?

 

[Springs Branch]

On several big blocks , certain I/C trains were put down the DC , - but the 25 mph restriction for non tripcock fitted trains was a bit of a showstopper - certainly , for example when the NLL bridge was replaced back in the 1980's a combination of very limited hand signalling on the mains , - (over 2 lines) was done , and key trains like the Holyhead HST's were put down the DC.

Presumably a Croxley Green motorman would be riding as a conductor in the cab of these diverted trains with the main-line drivers traversing unfamiliar bits of track between Camden and Watford Junction. And to interpret some of those peculiar LMS-era colour light signals along the DC lines (before the late-1980s resignalling).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Presumably a Croxley Green motorman would be riding as a conductor in the cab of these diverted trains with the main-line drivers traversing unfamiliar bits of track between Camden and Watford Junction. And to interpret some of those peculiar LMS-era colour light signals along the DC lines (before the late-1980s resignalling).

A pilot driver would be provided from Watford Junction train crew depot. A welcome change of routine.

 

[telstarbox]

One of the crushingly naive ideas on "Silverlink Metro" - "fast , frequent and fun" - seriously , was the idea of retail opportunties on stations.
Many stations and trains had "informal" retail opportunities and sales going on if you follow the reasoning.
So every station on the DC got brand new drink machines installed to sell canned , fizzy , muck.
Predictably they lasted days - the Kenton one was torn off the mountings , slid across the booking hall floor and used to barricade the poor booking clerk in his office; the Harlesden one flung onto the tracks bringing the breakers out and blocking the lines , and most of the rest were wrecked and burgled.
All these brand new machines ended up going for scrap at Bedford. Dread to think what the compensation was.
THe DC and NLL 313's had window wedges to prevent the removable seat squabs being posted out. Ilford removed them on C6 , but they had to be put back. Incidentally - the comparison between a WAGN and NLR 313 when stripped down showed the NLL ones having hundredweights of black dust in the cable runs etc , indicative of their harsh urban berthing places - whereas the WAGN ones mostly berthed in clean and airy Hertfordshire. I was very dissapointed that thanks to "leasing" , the only benefit was in fitting door locks on internal cars so you could lock out a single car (subject to various rules etc) - to keep a train in passenger service as far as possible. Luckily the car cleaners at
Watford were excellent in dealing with the inevitable problems encountered.

notorious estate at Kidbrooke (also now gone), I’d imagine this gave trouble at times too.(he Ferriers Estate)
Good friend covered the area as SM Relief - any arriving down train disgorged maybe 200 passengers , 100 of which jumped the wooden fence. Day 2 he got the top of the fence coated with point greasing oil (which they could not complain about when they automatically tried to wipe their hands on the clothes - suits may be too posh for some of them) - Day 3 he got the PW to saw the joists on the fence , so the next 100 or so had the fence collapse under them
There was a donkey ride on the common at Blackheath , some of the residents stole the poor animals and held them hostage. They were returned safely - but the criminals had got them into a lift in the flats and held them in a flat.

I've created a new thread about the Southeastern Dartford lines if you want to add anything there.

"Dartford lines" history

I had a few questions about the Dartford lines i.e. the suburban routes from Central London via Woolwich Arsenal, Bexleyheath or Sidcup to Dartford: Did these lines go straight from steam locomotive to EMU operation without a diesel era in between? Did all three lines always have services to...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[ChiefPlanner]

begs the question...........
was Broad St ever used to terminate main line services if Euston was closed?

Not to my knowledge - (a slow journey to the wrong part of London) - when Euston was being rebuilt in the 1960's , the DC continued to run through most of the disruption - at times it may have run only to Queens Park , reversing at Kilburn High Rd on the crossover (which would have needed staff on the ground of course)

Euston ML of course had comprehensive diversions in this time to Paddington and Kensington Olympia.

 

[Ken H]

3 books that cover this line and trains but old and prob out of stock

The Story of Londons Underground. Published by LT in the 60's. I have a copy somewhere. Has a chapter on the 'New Lines'

Tube Trains under London. Another LT book with a chapter on each type. Has a chapter on the Watford Jount Stock. 1960's again. There is companion volume 'From Steam to Silver about sub surface stock.

LT also published a set of books on each line. The covers were the line colours. The Bakerloo one had a section on the New Line. No Metropolitan line one though.

I had a thing about the tube when i was aged 9 - 12 ish.

There is a 1988 Bakerloo / NSE timetable here https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=c6dec9a6-3378-4188-b652-eb3296dc5890

 

[Taunton]

Broad Street of course was never 25kV electrified, so has never been practical since the 1966 WCML electrification. However, up to that time there were a couple of longstanding peak hour trains each way between Broad Street and Tring/Bletchley, which into the diesel era were handled by Class 24s. They ran from the WCML slow lines through the connections at Camden and Primrose Hill onto the North London line. I believe there were some initial designs done for electrification, and even for dual voltage emus, but not progressed.

Broad Street was no stranger to loco hauled operations because right up to the 1976 GN electrification there were peak services run with Class 31 and the last non-corridor stock to various GN suburban points. Building on the note above about stock storage at Broad Street, the GN suburban trains, both these hauled ones and dmus, were stabled there between the peaks, and also all weekend, both at the platforms and sidings outside the station. I remember seeing them all on my first trip there on a Saturday afternoon. They filled the east side of the station, and the stabled 501s were on the west side.