Evening peak restrictions for Thames Valley

[autotank]

Hello,

It seems GWR are introducing more evening peak restrictions from the December timetable change. Looking at the Henley branch, most fast Paddington-Twyford services between 4-6.45pm will need an 'Anytime' ticket.

Just looking into how much it would cost to excess a £17.70 Off Peak Day Return (or £11.70 with a railcard) from Henley-on-Thames - Paddington to use on a peak return train? Also can you excess a £22.40 off peak day travel card (£14.80 with a railcard) to use on these return peak trains?

Thanks in advance for your help! Excesses are a bit of a mystery to me! If possible then where should/could I buy an excess?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

It seems GWR are introducing more evening peak restrictions from the December timetable change.

How would they police this? It's not a ban on all travel as the off peak tickets can still be used on TfL services which will run from the Paddington station for quite a while yet whilst they struggle to get Crossrail tested and open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it a franchise requirement to keep slow services available on Off Peaks? If not, I don't get why the split - on the WCML it's by ticket, not by TOC.

The excess is the full difference between the fares, or a new Anytime Day Single if that is cheaper.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Is it a franchise requirement to keep slow services available on Off Peaks?

The slow services will be run by TfL from December.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The slow services will be run by TfL from December.

Ah, so GWR are moving to restrictions on all their services? That makes some sense.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Ah, so GWR are moving to restrictions on all their services? That makes some sense.

The off peak calling pattern for the half hourly services to Didcot is going to be Ealing Broadway, Hayes, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading. In the peak, first stop is Slough or Maidenhead.

 

[cactustwirly]

In the peak, first stop is Slough or Maidenhead.

But you've been able to use off-peak tickets on these services for years.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

But you've been able to use off-peak tickets on these services for years.

That's the point, the facility is being withdrawn with effect from the new timetable.

 

[JonathanH]

But you've been able to use off-peak tickets on these services for years.

So what? They are extending the restriction. I would imagine this is the train operators prerogative if they feel there isn't enough capacity for full fare passengers or they need some extra income.

Applies to local journeys west from Reading as well.

 

[cactustwirly]

So what? They are extending the restriction. I would imagine this is the train operators prerogative if they feel there isn't enough capacity for full fare passengers or they need some extra income.

They should't be allowed to, I thought these were regulated fares.
I'm pretty sure that it says in GWRs franchise agreement that they can't add evening peak restrictions for local Thames Valley stations

 

[yorkie]

They should't be allowed to, I thought these were regulated fares.
I'm pretty sure that it says in GWRs franchise agreement that they can't add evening peak restrictions for local Thames Valley stations

Even regulated fares can be barred for travel departing London throughout the evening "peak" from as early as 3pm.

I don't think any Off Peak Day Return (CDR) fares are regulated anyway.

 

[Hadders]

I don't know what regulated fares there are on the GWML out of Paddington but First Capital Connect introduced evening restrictions out of Kings Cross and St Pancras in 2007. They claimed it was to balance demand across the available trains. GWR can hardly say the same thing given the recent increase in capacity!

Contactless will have evening restrictions so GWR will probably say they're simplifying things and making things consistent. What they won't say is that it means a fares increase via the back door.

A better way would be to introduce a Super Off Peak fare with evening restrictions and retain an Off Peak Day Return but with restrictions int he evening. To their credit this is wht GTR have done on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes.

 

[cactustwirly]

A better way would be to introduce a Super Off Peak fare with evening restrictions and retain an Off Peak Day Return but with restrictions int he evening. To their credit this is wht GTR have done on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes.

I think that is a better solution, I wouldn't mind spending an extra few quid to travel on faster services, but currently there's a significant difference between the Off-Peak and Anytime fares.

 

[Hadders]

I think that is a better solution, I wouldn't mind spending an extra few quid to travel on faster services, but currently there's a significant difference between the Off-Peak and Anytime fares.

I agree. The problem is contactless only has Peak and Off Peak fares so introducing a 3rd tier of super off peak fares wouldn't be compatible with contactless. This hasn't stopped GTR but it'll become an issue at places like St Albans soon enough when passengers discover that using contactless off peak is more expensive....

 

[Tw99]

For people who use the intermediate stations from Reading to Didcot, it practically doubles the cost of a typical leisure day trip into London if you use a direct train and just buy an Anytime travelcard instead of an off-peak one. I can't see that prospect being very appealing (e.g. £55 vs £25 from Pangbourne).

I suppose the solution if travelling back in peak hours now would be to use Crossrail back to Reading (assuming off-peak tickets will be valid), and then use an Anytime single to cover Reading onwards on the GWR stopper. I imagine a lot of people would just wing it and not bother with the extra ticket though.

 

[yorkie]

I suppose the solution if travelling back in peak hours now would be to use Crossrail back to Reading (assuming off-peak tickets will be valid), and then use an Anytime single to cover Reading onwards on the GWR stopper. I imagine a lot of people would just wing it and not bother with the extra ticket though.

The more peak restrictions are added, the more journeys become cheaper to "split". Most people won't be able to work this out themselves.

Anyone using one of the accredited split ticketing sites in "value" mode should be offered such a combination and thus be sold the correct fares, however.

I agree with @Hadders that GWR will probably claim that these more onerous restrictions are "simpler" as their justification for doing it. In most cases, "simpler" fares absolutely means more expensive fares.

When passengers complete passenger surveys, I would advise against asking for "simpler" fares for this reason; instead ask for lower fares and less onerous restrictions. That way rogue companies, such as GWR, can't use what it claim are passenger wishes against us.

 

[hkstudent]

The more peak restrictions are added, the more journeys become cheaper to "split". Most people won't be able to work this out themselves.

Anyone using one of the accredited split ticketing sites in "value" mode should be offered such a combination and thus be sold the correct fares, however.

I agree with @Hadders that GWR will probably claim that these more onerous restrictions are "simpler" as their justification for doing it. In most cases, "simpler" fares absolutely means more expensive fares.

When passengers complete passenger surveys, I would advise against asking for "simpler" fares for this reason; instead ask for lower fares and less onerous restrictions. That way rogue companies, such as GWR, can't use what it claim are passenger wishes against us.

Yeah, but one flaw in those systems (which they are wonderful anyway), is that they couldn't advise oyster/contactless pay-as-you-go fare as part of the ticket split.

 

[bnm]

The Thames Valley stopping services are transferring to TfL Rail. Timetable changes are putting some departures into the 'Peak' windows that booking engines use. These windows are part of the 'unpublished restrictions' that can be seen on BRFares.

The complete timetable recast across the Greater Western area is changing TfL Thames Valley stopping service departure times by a few minutes plus or minus (often just 1 minute). The electronic data 'unpublished restrictions' that booking engines use haven't been properly updated to reflect these timetable changes. This is consequently putting some stopping services into peak windows where today the nearest equivalent departure is off peak.

Hopefully the electronic data will be updated to reflect the new timetable by 15th December. I say 'hopefully' but I am doubtful that GWR (who currently price the flows) will get it right. Their Fares Implementation Team is currently making a complete horlicks of the changes required. They are more concerned about revenue than customer service.

TfL Rail may, in the future, take over responsibility for pricing the stopping service flows. In the meantime they do say on their website that:

Existing ticketing arrangements will apply and fares will remain at the current price. New fares and contactless will be introduced on 2 January 2020.

https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-informati...he-elizabeth-line?intcmp=56250#on-this-page-0

 

[cactustwirly]

The Thames Valley stopping services are transferring to TfL Rail. Timetable changes are putting some departures into the 'Peak' windows that booking engines use. These windows are part of the 'unpublished restrictions' that can be seen on BRFares.

The complete timetable recast across the Greater Western area is changing TfL Thames Valley stopping service departure times by a few minutes plus or minus (often just 1 minute). The electronic data 'unpublished restrictions' that booking engines use haven't been properly updated to reflect these timetable changes. This is consequently putting some stopping services into peak windows where today the nearest equivalent departure is off peak.

Hopefully the electronic data will be updated to reflect the new timetable by 15th December. I say 'hopefully' but I am doubtful that GWR (who currently price the flows) will get it right. Their Fares Implementation Team is currently making a complete horlicks of the changes required. They are more concerned about revenue than customer service.

TfL Rail may, in the future, take over responsibility for pricing the stopping service flows. In the meantime they do say on their website that:

Existing ticketing arrangements will apply and fares will remain at the current price. New fares and contactless will be introduced on 2 January 2020.

https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-informati...he-elizabeth-line?intcmp=56250#on-this-page-0

GWRs timetable booklet T10, specifically says these services will be peak only (for tickets London - Thames Valley and vice versa)

 

[bnm]

GWRs timetable booklet T10, specifically says these services will be peak only (for tickets London - Thames Valley and vice versa)

Only for GWR services that are semi-fast. All TfL stopping services shown in that timetable are Off Peak.

 

[JonathanH]

Only for GWR services that are semi-fast. All TfL stopping services shown in that timetable are Off Peak.

Yes, the point of this (and the previous threads on this topic) is that previous semi-fast services which were not restricted now will be restricted from both Paddington and Reading.

The fact that paper tickets will be off-peak on TfL Rail is neither here nor there (and of course on TfL's own Contactless fare structure will very much be charged at peak rates).

 

[JonathanH]

Hopefully the electronic data will be updated to reflect the new timetable by 15th December. I say 'hopefully' but I am doubtful that GWR (who currently price the flows) will get it right. Their Fares Implementation Team is currently making a complete horlicks of the changes required. They are more concerned about revenue than customer service.

I don't really understand why they are trying to set up the fares based on departure time windows instead of just setting the full peak period as restricted on GWR services. It would appear that the intention is that all GWR services should be restricted (and TfL Rail not so).

 

[yorkie]

I don't really understand why they are trying to set up the fares based on departure time windows instead of just setting the full peak period as restricted on GWR services. It would appear that the intention is that all GWR services should be restricted (and TfL Rail not so).

If that is their intention then I would guess that is exactly what they will do.

However it's not been implemented yet, so if anyone buys a ticket now for future travel with an itinerary on a train that will later become restricted, the ticket remains valid as per the contract.

 

[181]

What is the position with this ticket? (i.e. the off-peak period return -- SVR). I think someone on another thread suggested it as a way round the restrictions, and it's true that brfares.com shows no evening restrictions in the main list. However, a) that presumably refers to the current situation, not that from December (or January); b) the unpublished restrictions show that many departure times from Paddington are already banned in the evening (based on a quick look, it appears that you can use the ticket on the Bedwyn semi-fasts but not the Didcot ones), and c) https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/fo says that return travel from Paddington is restricted from 04:30 to 09:19 '+ PM'.

My understanding is that unpubished restrictions, although they affect what booking engines will offer, don't affect what you are allowed to do once you have the ticket; but that brfares.com is not definitive and to be certain what the restrictions are you have to look on the National Rail website. But what is the position when the supposedly definitive source says something as vague as '+ PM'? I presume it isn't intended, and won't usually be understood, to mean that you can't leave Paddington between noon and midnight.

 

[bnm]

Yes, the point of this (and the previous threads on this topic) is that previous semi-fast services which were not restricted now will be restricted from both Paddington and Reading.

Can you provide some examples of existing semi-fast evening departures which are Off Peak and their similarly timed departures which will be Anytime from December 15th?

I, even with a fairly good working knowledge of fares and restrictions, am struggling to get my head round the changes.

 

[cactustwirly]

Can you provide some examples of existing semi-fast evening departures which are Off Peak and their similarly timed departures which will be Anytime from December 15th?

I, even with a fairly good working knowledge of fares and restrictions, am struggling to get my head round the changes.

Currently the 1648*, 1657, 1707*, 1712, 1718*, 1727, 1742, 1748*, 1757, 1807*, 1812, 1818*, 1827, 1842 & 1848* departures from Paddington allow the use of Off-Peak tickets.
*denotes a semi fast service, first stop Maidenhead or Twyford.
From December only the slow TfL Rail services allow Off-Peak tickets (for the purposes of this thread these are London - Maidenhead/Twyford/Reading tickets) the semi fast services are Anytime only.

I've attached a screenshot of the new timetable, the blue highlight indicates a peak service

 

[yorkie]

What is the position with this ticket? (i.e. the off-peak period return -- SVR). I think someone on another thread suggested it as a way round the restrictions, and it's true that brfares.com shows no evening restrictions in the main list. However, a) that presumably refers to the current situation, not that from December (or January); b) the unpublished restrictions show that many departure times from Paddington are already banned in the evening (based on a quick look, it appears that you can use the ticket on the Bedwyn semi-fasts but not the Didcot ones), and c) https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/fo says that return travel from Paddington is restricted from 04:30 to 09:19 '+ PM'.

My understanding is that unpubished restrictions, although they affect what booking engines will offer, don't affect what you are allowed to do once you have the ticket; but that brfares.com is not definitive and to be certain what the restrictions are you have to look on the National Rail website. But what is the position when the supposedly definitive source says something as vague as '+ PM'? I presume it isn't intended, and won't usually be understood, to mean that you can't leave Paddington between noon and midnight.

That human-readable restriction text is clearly not compliant with consumer law and any intended evening peak restrictions associated with that restriction code are not legally enforceable (but very possibly would be unlawfully applied).

I am unsure what is going on with GWR at the moment but they appear to be desperately lacking expertise and knowledge in this area.

 

[JonathanH]

Can you provide some examples of existing semi-fast evening departures which are Off Peak and their similarly timed departures which will be Anytime from December 15th?

I, even with a fairly good working knowledge of fares and restrictions, am struggling to get my head round the changes.

Existing off peak trains between 1600 and 1920 are (as I understand it) all trains that stop within zones 1-6 plus
1606 Bedwyn
1609 Maidenhead
1649 Didcot Parkway
1656 Maidenhead
1707 Frome
1718 Oxford
1726 Maidenhead
1749 Didcot Parkway
1757 Reading
1807 Frome
1819 Didcot Parkway
1842 Reading
1848 Didcot Parkway
1855 Maidenhead
1906 Bedwyn
1920 Didcot Parkway

From the timetable change the equivalent trains to all of the listed services will not be available to holders of off peak tickets.

They are:
1608 Bedwyn
1650 Didcot Parkway
1656 Maidenhead
1708 Bedwyn
1719 Didcot Parkway
1727 Maidenhead
1742 Didcot Parkway
1751 Didcot Parkway
1756 Reading
1807 Frome
1820 Didcot Parkway
1826 Reading
1842 Didcot Parkway
1849 Didcot Parkway
1856 Reading
1907 Bedwyn
1920 Didcot Parkway

 

[181]

For people who use the intermediate stations from Reading to Didcot, it practically doubles the cost of a typical leisure day trip into London if you use a direct train and just buy an Anytime travelcard instead of an off-peak one. I can't see that prospect being very appealing (e.g. £55 vs £25 from Pangbourne).

I suppose the solution if travelling back in peak hours now would be to use Crossrail back to Reading (assuming off-peak tickets will be valid), and then use an Anytime single to cover Reading onwards on the GWR stopper. I imagine a lot of people would just wing it and not bother with the extra ticket though.

I haven't checked in detail, but I think you would probably want two off-peak day returns, Pangbourne-Reading and Reading-London (the latter being a Travelcard if desired). There don't appear to be any evening restrictions on day returns between Pangbourne etc. and Reading (an Anytime is only slightly more expensive anyway).

Going from Waterloo will be another alternative way back in the evening. This is (even) slower than the Crossrail stoppers, but might be more convenient depending where in London you're starting from (and there will probably be a toilet).

 

[bnm]

Currently the 1648*, 1657, 1707*, 1712, 1718*, 1727, 1742, 1748*, 1757, 1807*, 1812, 1818*, 1827, 1842 & 1848* departures from Paddington allow the use of Off-Peak tickets.
*denotes a semi fast service, first stop Maidenhead or Twyford.

All those semi-fast listed, except the 1707 and 1807, are currently barred for Off Peak tickets according to the unpublished restrictions used by journey planners and booking engines (see below).

It's a mess. And I agree with yorkie's assessment of GWRs competence in this area. There's one manager in the Fare's Implementation Team in particular who seems to be in a position above his competence. Excellent at organising charity events and open days. Useless at implementing fares changes in a customer friendly way.

Just to give you another example. On Monday 30th December a couple of services to the far west, the 1804 to Penzance and the 1904 to Plymouth are moved to 1800 and 1900 due to engineering works. That pushes the former into an Anytime window and the latter from Super Off Peak to Off Peak. GWR are not relaxing the restrictions and have briefed retail staff accordingly.

Oh, and just to further stick it to passengers over Christmas, GWR are only lifting Peak restrictions on 27th December. For many many years previously there has been a relaxation from 24th December to 1st January. Scrooge is alive and well and working in GWR's Fares Implementation department.