Eventual 3rd Rail Boundaries

[Ministry]

How did Liverpool end up with a 3rd rail network anyway?

 

[OxtedL]

I think it started with the Birkenhead tunnel area, which looked... unattractive when it ran with steam, due to the mess steam locomotives leave. By running with electric trains, it became popular, but I guess they just used whatever technology was lying around at the time...

The Mersey Railway was electrified in 1903, as despite the journey being far quicker than travel aboard the Mersey Ferries passengers were not keen on travelling underground due to the smoke from coal-powered steam locomotives. A "Frequent electric trains" sign was erected on the outside of the station's large hydraulic lift tower (slightly below the position of the present sign) to publicise these cleaner trains.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hamilton_Square_Station_Sign.jpg for the sign in question.

 

[Eagle]

If Basingstoke-Salisbury(-Exeter) was OHL and not third rail, would it perhaps be quicker to run Salisbury-Basingstoke-Reading-Paddington with a 360 or something rather than use bimodals on Salisbury-Basingstoke-Woking-Waterloo?

 

[OxtedL]

I wouldn't have thought so. Using dual voltage units (assuming you meant that by bi-mode), putting the pan up/down really oughtn't take long, and there shouldn't be any need to lengthen journey times. Certainly by no more than a minute or so.

I suppose it depends on how fast electric stopping trains could go Basingstoke - Reading - Paddington though. I doubt there would be much in it, to be honest, and with the lack of paths that will probably be available near Paddington... :?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How would TfGM feel about Merseyrail 3rd rail service entering part of Greater Manchester and would Northern Rail be unhappy if another operator put such as system onto their franchaise line from Orrell to Wigan Wallgate?

 

[WatcherZero]

They wouldnt mind, as far as their concerned electrification is electrification, their job is to ensure transport options for the community, reduce air pollution and increase economic development. Their only concern would be the reduction of journey options unless dual mode stock was available. The PTE's and councils work together and are less territorial than you may imagine. They have a combined lobbying group (PTEG), co-sponsor frequnecy/lengthening improvements and new infrastructure.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They wouldnt mind, as far as their concerned electrification is electrification, their job is to ensure transport options for the community, reduce air pollution and increase economic development. Their only concern would be the reduction of journey options unless dual mode stock was available. The PTE's and councils work together and are less territorial than you may imagine. They have a combined lobbying group (PTEG), co-sponsor frequnecy/lengthening improvements and new infrastructure.

I take your point on my first query, but what about my second query about how Northern would feel about Merseyrail introducing 3rd rail electrification into the Orrell to Wigan Wallgate area of its franchaise area. Would this be allowed under the terms of the existing franchaise....or are you thinking that this particular stretch of line should be taken out of the franchaise when it ends in 2013 and be given to Merseyrail, whose franchaise has very many years to run?

 

[LE Greys]

They wouldnt mind, as far as their concerned electrification is electrification, their job is to ensure transport options for the community, reduce air pollution and increase economic development. Their only concern would be the reduction of journey options unless dual mode stock was available. The PTE's and councils work together and are less territorial than you may imagine. They have a combined lobbying group (PTEG), co-sponsor frequnecy/lengthening improvements and new infrastructure.

There are options open for that. The new Thameslink stock should displace the 319s, which ought to suit. Then there are the 313s, which could head north to work alongside their 50X cousins, since we have a few spare ones from the old NLL stock. Personally, I would prefer to see new stock replacing all the PEP-based units within the next ten years, perhaps an electric version of the new standard DMU which I think we should acquire. If we have dual-system ones for the Moorgate lines, why not for Merseyrail as well?

 

[lancastrian]

How did Liverpool end up with a 3rd rail network anyway?

The main reason that merseyside got a 3rd Rail network is very simple. The lines from Liverpool Exchange to Southport & Crossens, as well as to Ormskirk via Kikdale & the North Liverpool loop, all done before WW1 by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway. Read the History of the L&YR (3 Vols) by John Marshall for more details. At that time, pre WW1 almost all electrification in Great Britain, apart from the LB&SCR lines in south London, were by 3rd rail, including the London Underground. By 1929 all the ex LB&SCR lines had ben converted from Overhead to third rail, by the Southern Railway.

 

[Green Lane]

With the extension of the Merseyrail 3rd rail system in mind, hoping that I do not horrify the conservationists, how about reopening the West Kirby to Hooton line?

Well speaking as someone who admittedly probably knows more about the Wirral Peninsula than about the railways, this would be very difficult now I would think. At West Kirby, the "West Kirby Concourse" leisure complex (Swimming baths and library) was built over the ex-railway land specifically where this line would have ran out of station. Looking at old aerial photos of the Wirral, it appears to me that a bridge which used to cross the A540 carrying this line has also been removed, although I never saw it in person - it was before my time. I just can't see there's any room for this line to get out of the station now without some serious demolition.

In both Heswall and Neston, entire streets of semi-detached houses have been built over where the line used to run. (Davenport Road & Station Road respectively).

At least two further rail bridges have been removed that I know of in Neston. (One of which has been replaced with a narrow cyclist/pedestrian bridge).

The business case is also very weak. Despite the loss of this line, three of the towns on this route, Neston, West Kirby & Hooton are still connected to the rail network via the Wirral Line or Borderlands line. All still enjoying (admittedly indirect) connections to Liverpool, Chester & Manchester. Even Heswall (at a stretch) still is connected (via the out of the way station on the Borderlands line).

All of these places plus the smaller villages which lost their rail connection entirely (namely Willaston, Thurstaston & Caldy) are all connected to Liverpool and/or Chester via reasonably good bus services.

Add to that the fact the Thurstaston station was always a mile out from civilization anyway. (Apparently due to original landowner's objections). Then there's not much of a case for it. Also most of the areas of the Wirral that this line ran through are relatively affluent with near 100% car ownership with very low dependency on public transport.

Finally hikers (myself included), cyclists, birdwatchers & dog walkers etc.. are all so happy to have this excellent 12-mile long "Wirral Way" available for exercising and getting some fresh air. It really is quite a pleasant walk with excellent views across the River Dee to Wales. I don't think it'd be very popular locally to convert it back to a railway now.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm usually a strong proponent for reversing the Beeching Axe (and associated closures of that general era) where feasible, and reinstating as much as the full network as possible again. However, this is one 12-mile stretch where I just can't see it ever happening for the reasons above. (Really, I'd just love to be proved wrong though).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As regards Bidston - Wrexham, I also have doubts to whether the passenger numbers would stack up. However, interest has been shown by several parties over the last few years, with various options being considered. A scheme was priced up by NR but came in as mega expensive so was not proceeded with. Certainly, I can see merit in opening some additional stations at the northern end of this line & extending the 3rd rail to the Woodchurch area. Going all the way to Wrexham would be more for operating convenience (eliminating the need for an isolated diesel service).

Indeed, there is the land there (an occasionally-used playing field) near the A552 primary road/M53 Junction 3 interchange for a park and ride station.

Not only that, but the site is right between the large Woodchurch estate and the Prenton suburb of Birkenhead.

These areas are currently only served by buses into Liverpool.

These happen to be the same buses I sometimes get on in Birkenhead going to work. Frequently they are full at peak times. Since, I'm only three stops from the tunnel, this is the reason why I get into work for 7:45 am and either leave at 4pm or 6pm (never 5pm!).

I think having an electrified station at the Woodchurch/Prenton site with a large car park would be a very good idea, perhaps even a bus interchange (or at least bus stop). I can see it as an area of potential growth for onward commuting via the Merseyrail network.

I'm not sure about the case for electrification from Merseyside further into North Wales though. I can see up to Shotton would be good initially giving access to the Deeside industrial estate from Merseyside. Likewise, the Wrexham end of the line is quite heavily used (particularly for short journeys from Gwersyllt into Wrexham), but how many people cross from Merseyside/Cheshire into Wales and vice-versa daily? It's a reasonably popular leisure/shopping route, but as for commuting I'm not so sure.

In my experience, most journeys on the Borderlands line seem to be short local journeys (e.g. Buckley-Shotton or Gwersyllt-Wrexham or Bidston-Neston etc..) rather than people traveling the entire length of the line. It's almost as if it's segmented around local communities.

 

[Eagle]

I'm not sure about the case for electrification from Merseyside further into North Wales though. I can see up to Shotton would be good initially giving access to the Deeside industrial estate from Merseyside. Likewise, the Wrexham end of the line is quite heavily used (particularly for short journeys from Gwersyllt into Wrexham), but how many people cross from Merseyside/Cheshire into Wales and vice-versa daily? It's a reasonably popular leisure/shopping route, but as for commuting I'm not so sure.

In my experience, most journeys on the Borderlands line seem to be short local journeys (e.g. Buckley-Shotton or Gwersyllt-Wrexham or Bidston-Neston etc..) rather than people traveling the entire length of the line. It's almost as if it's segmented around local communities.

And anyway, surely it's often quicker (or just more convenient) if you're going from Wrexham to further than Bidston to change at Chester instead?

 

[Green Lane]

And anyway, surely it's often quicker (or just more convenient) if you're going from Wrexham to further than Bidston to change at Chester instead?

Indeed, and even most of the other towns on the route are served by convenient direct bus services to either Chester bus station or Chester railway station. e.g. Shotton & Buckley off the top of my head.

In my experience, people who live more than half a mile from the nearest railway station are generally more likely to get the bus whilst commuting. As much as it's good to walk when the weather's nice, during the mornings going to work, time is often of the essence. So if you have a bus stop on your doorstep, you may well prefer to use the bus (at least initially) as I do myself in Birkenhead. As much as I would ideally prefer travelling to work by train, it would cost me an extra 10-15 minutes in the morning, just getting to/from the stations.

If you take Buckley as an example, the railway station is about 1 mile east from the town centre, it's out on a limb. So it's not currently competitive with other modes of transport for many people in that town for example.
Having said all that, the Borderlands line remains my personal favourite railway line and I'd love to see it developed further, where economically feasible.

 

[Buttsy]

It would appear to me that the sensible options for 3rd rail electrification extensions should be:

Ormskirk - Southport - Preston (re-instating Burscough curves, but maybe losing the direct Ormskirk - Preston link)
Kirby - Wigan Wallgate
Ellemere Port - Helsby
Basingstoke - Salisbury
Salisbury - Redbridge
Romsey - Eastleigh
Croydon - Uckfield - Lewes (reinstating latter link)
Ore - Ashford
Redhill - Reading
Reading - Basingstoke.

Both Kirby & Ormskirk could have Penrhyn-type layouts to reduce cost if the lines aren't redoubled.

Apologies if I've missed an obvious Southern route from my list.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would appear to me that the sensible options for 3rd rail electrification extensions should be:

Kirby - Wigan Wallgate
Ellemere Port - Helsby


Both Kirby & Ormskirk could have Penrhyn-type layouts to reduce cost if the lines aren't redoubled.

Not wishing to sound pedantic but:-
KIRKBY.....not Kirby
ELLESMERE PORT.....not Ellemere Port.

Blessed are the geographers, for their directions shall be of great clarity to the lost.

 

[WatcherZero]

KIRKBY Silent K

ELLESMERE PORT Silent E

You would never know unless you saw them written down, I love the english language sometimes

 

[Buttsy]

Not wishing to sound pedantic but:-
KIRKBY.....not Kirby
ELLESMERE PORT.....not Ellemere Port.

Blessed are the geographers, for their directions shall be of great clarity to the lost.

Whoops! typos. I was aware of teh correct spelling but am unable to tripe properlee.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However their talking of reducing the services from Kirkby to Manchester back to just a Wigan-Kirkby shuttle anyway, extending electrification would remove that potential diesel island, it would also make possible a Wigan-Skem service if Merseyrail spur to Skem was built.

The time that the 375/385/395 buses from Southport take on the final leg from Skelmersdale to Wigan is only 35 minutes and there is a very good frquency of service. They are also supplemented by the 313 service. The bus station there abuts the main shopping complex. All these bus services are run by Arriva who have a large depot in Skelmersdale.

 

[First class]

The time that the 375/385/395 buses from Southport take on the final leg from Skelmersdale to Wigan is only 35 minutes and there is a very good frquency of service. They are also supplemented by the 313 service. The bus station there abuts the main shopping complex. All these bus services are run by Arriva who have a large depot in Skelmersdale.

The depot will be closing down shortly. All the VOSA cancellations have been accepted. Skem is a loss maker depot. Another local bus operator, Fairway has recently been forced to close due lack of finance. The buses don't make money around Ormskirk/Skem due to a high proportion of concessionary passes in use and the fact the bus journey times are slow (towards Liverpool/Southport).

 

[Helvellyn]

The Oxted and Marshlink routes are obvious candidates for third rail, with continued operation by Southern.

Likewise, the North Downs route is another obvious candidate for third rail, but with services then transferred to SWT.

Things then get more interesting. Reading to Basingstoke is not part of the GWML electrification scheme, yet would seem a good candidate for overhead electrification (especially given the wires are going to Newbury). Furthermore, EMUs on the Reading-Basingstoke route, with faster acceleration than the 165s, would be good if additional stations at Green Park and Chineham are built.

If you electrififed overhead into Basingstoke station proper (not just platform 5) then with wires from Oxford to Basingstoke, if the Voyagers get a pantograph coach CrossCountry get a benefit too.

As someone has said, having wires from Basingstoke to Salisbury would give a long stretch of overhead and third rail down to Worting Junction. It would seem more logical to extend the third rail to Yeovil Junction (more why later), as well as the Romsey routes to Southampton (via Redbridge and Chandlers Ford), plus the Laverstock loop. The benefit of doing this is that SWT gains divisionary routes that its existing dc Desiros can use without having to convert the majority to dual-voltage operation (more expensive to maintain) if it wants the benefits of additional divisonary routes.

I said third rail should run to Yeovil Junction, because after that the route down to Exeter is also a Great Western divisionary route. Therefore, it would be better to electrify this part with overhead wires for future extension of the wires from Newbury/Bristol to Exeter to allow Great Western to maintain overhead wired divisionary routes. All SWT services stop at Yeovil Junction anyway, and a small fleet of dual voltage EMUs can operate the Exeter services.

Then there is the question of what to do with Portsmouth-Cardiff services? If you extend the third rail from Salisbury (assuming it was electrified) to Westbury, then wires beyond, you'd be able to operate dual-voltage EMUs on the Portsmouth-Cardiff route. Transfer to SWT would make sense, as a common dual-voltage fleet could operate the Waterloo-Exeter, Waterloo-Bristol and Portsmouth-Cardiff services. Westbury would also be a good changover point because if you electrify the Berks & Hants, the divisionary route via Yeovil would be overhead too (as above).

So, in summary for the SWT/FGW interface, I'd suggest logical electrification would be: -

• Third Rail > Worting Junction - Yeovil Junction
• Third Rail > Laverstock North Junction - Laverstock South Junction
• Third Rail > Redbridge - Romsey - Salisbury - Westbury
• Third Rail > Eastleigh - Romsey
• Overhead > Southcote Junction (Berks & Hants) - Basingstoke
• Overhead > Westbury - Bradford South Junction - Bathampton Junction (GWML)
• Overhead > Bradford South Junction - Thingley Junction (GWML)
• Overhead > Westbury - Castle Cary - Yeovil Pen Mill - Yeovil Junction
• Overhead > Yeovil Junction - Exeter St Davids

If you wanted Westbury - Salisbury - Yeovil Junction as a divisionary route too, then you'd electrify this with overhead instead of third rail.


Obviously for the full benefits to be realised you'd want overhead electrification extended on the GW side to: -

• Overhead > Bristol - Taunton - Exeter
• Overhead > Castle Cary - Taunton

 

[LE Greys]

Partly for tradition's sake, I think I'd prefer to see the GWR line from Salisbury to Westbury with overhead and the LSWR line 3rd rail all the way to Exeter. That's also to avoid Exeter services needing to change over at all, while the changeover point for Cardiff-Portsmouth would be Salisbury, the place where West Countries would take over from Halls in the past. Afraid it leaves a choice of diesel dragging or Class 73s for diversions, although quite a few of the recent ones have run into Waterloo.

Something we haven't mentioned is future 3rd rail locos. The 73s can't go on for ever. Do we just use diesels, have 92s work some trains or order some new locos. I'd go for something in the Type 2 range on diesel power and the 86 range on electric power, with ETS for possible passenger duties, but mostly working permanent way trains and ECS. Trouble is there is not much on the market that small. Anyone know of anything which could be adapted?

 

[Hydro]

Something we haven't mentioned is future 3rd rail locos. The 73s can't go on for ever. Do we just use diesels, have 92s work some trains or order some new locos. I'd go for something in the Type 2 range on diesel power and the 86 range on electric power, with ETS for possible passenger duties, but mostly working permanent way trains and ECS. Trouble is there is not much on the market that small. Anyone know of anything which could be adapted?

There are rumours abound that one of the NR 73's could be trialled with more modern electrical equipment and a new, more powerful GM power unit - reviving the class 75 super ED concept.

 

[LE Greys]

There are rumours abound that one of the NR 73's could be trialled with more modern electrical equipment and a new, more powerful GM power unit - reviving the class 75 super ED concept.

Now that's interesting. Any idea what a Super ED would look like, either then or now. If built by English Electric, I'd imagine something that has cabs looking vaguely like a Class 50, but with only two digits in the headcode panel. A shortened, boxy body. Bo-Bo, with bogies based more or less on the 86, but with shoes. A challenge to anyone good with Photoshop,

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The depot will be closing down shortly. All the VOSA cancellations have been accepted. Skem is a loss maker depot. Another local bus operator, Fairway has recently been forced to close due lack of finance. The buses don't make money around Ormskirk/Skem due to a high proportion of concessionary passes in use and the fact the bus journey times are slow (towards Liverpool/Southport).

Thank you for updating me with regard to the Arriva depot. Yes, I knew of the demise of Fairway who ran the 156/157 service that fringes the TfGM borders. My concern was NOT the Skelmersdale to Liverpool link of a newly created line, but my point was concerning that part of this route that would be from Wigan Wallgate to Skelmersdale.

Your comments about buses not making money in the Skelmersdale area would not sit well with those considering returning Skelmersdale to the national rail network. Perhaps you have raised a financial warning flag to this scheme.

 

[lewisf]

What about Amersham to Aylesbury? Extend the LU 4th rail up there and also the fast lines into Marylebone, then give Chiltern some Electrostars with the cl357/170 front end to have a uniform (looking) fleet.

 

[LE Greys]

What about Amersham to Aylesbury? Extend the LU 4th rail up there and also the fast lines into Marylebone, then give Chiltern some Electrostars with the cl357/170 front end to have a uniform (looking) fleet.

I'd be thinking more the other way round, electrify the Chiltern route overhead, pull up the conductor rails on the fast lines and to Amersham, then give the Met dual-system stock. The Met gets tunnel-adapted 378s for the Aylesbury service (extensions of the Amersham service) capable of working right through to Aldgate if need be. Chiltern then get to extend to Milton Keynes when the Varsity Line reopens.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Electrification is on their agenda too, there wouldnt be any problem with it being third rail and Wallgate is the logical terminus of the 3rd rail electrification.

Just a thought, should this happen. Would the existing Southport-facing bay platforms at Wigan Wallgate be the terminal platforms for this service or would new platforms be required to keep the diesel and electric services apart?

 

[WatcherZero]

Likely the platform would become dedicated terminus platform as there would be no need for diesel services, theres a reversing/stabling siding just beyond Wallgate whose future I would be unsure of as two diesel terminal bays would give them plenty of flexibility for long turnarounds.

 

[Nym]

Or they could just use North Western again..?

 

[185]

I don't think GMPTE want Merseyrail operating services into Greater Manchester as residents would quickly realise how awful the existing local Manchester train service has been for 20 years, and Metrolink isn't as great as their expensive publicity makes out.

I'd hope Hunts X electrics could one day be extended to Warrington, or maybe even to Manchester - every 15 mins with half of them running semi-fast. 4 X 3-car Merseyrail Electric sets per hour would provide slightly more seats than at present, but with scope for growth when the 319s arrive. Expresses should be routed via Newton Le Willows, so to compensate, Warrington Bank Quay could get an extended Transpennine from Hull enroute to Chester.

Kirkby & Ormskirk extensions are the natural next steps to both Wigan and Preston, neither are great distances.

Bidston-Shotton or Wrexham is desirable but expensive.

Tis a shame El-Smear (!) Port cannot be extended to Helsby, but thats probably down to the logistics of the big refinery is passes through

 

[WatcherZero]

Or they could just use North Western again..?

Which services? The Kirkby and Southport lines couldnt reach North Western without reversing. The North Western station on the WCML for Preston/Liverpool services, is on a viaduct and the Kirkby/Southport lines dive below street level to pass under it, there is a crossover to allow trains approaching from Manchester into North Western but then where would they go?