Eventual 3rd Rail Boundaries

[Ministry]

I was looking at a map of the UK rail electrified track capability earlier (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...pe and miles/electrified track capability.pdf) and it got me thinking - as a hypothetical scenario, supposing the entire UK network was electrified where would the 3rd rail boundary be?

Given that almost everything North of London is on overhead power it seems reasonable to assume that most of the country would go the same way, but what about the unelectrified sections around that border the current 3rd rail regions?

In my opinion it would make sense to extend the 3rd rail through the South West. I have no idea about 3rd rail in Liverpool and how much sense there is to extending it (and where its limit should be).

 

[NSEFAN]

Third rail only really makes sense for suburban and underground networks. It adds a lot of friction, so higher speeds become more difficult to acheive. Also, snow and third rail don't mix well at all!

The south west would arguably be overhead wires, as this is what is planned currently for other parts of the GWML. Any electrification scheme along the Dawlish sea wall would be interesting though. Flooding and huge waves aside, I'm sure that a certain Mr Marsden would have something to say about wires going up along his favourite line!

 

[DavidBrown]

Certaintly electrification would be very controversial in the south west. Not only do you have the Dawlish Sea Wall, but could you also imagine overhead wires on the Looe Valley Line, Tarka Line, or St Ives branch? That's ignoring the associated infrastruture with electrification. I somehow don't see it, even in 50 years time.

 

[route:oxford]

How often do you find a mix of overhead and third rail?

I could readily imagine a time that the wires will reach Southampton (via Reading). Indeed it would make a lot of sense considering the volume of movements between Southampton & the Midlands.

 

[OxtedL]

If EVERYTHING were electrified, then the changeovers would be Basingstoke (with Reading through to Salisbury and Exeter OHLE), Weymouth (unlikely for many years yet though), Romsey (most efficient way of reducing changeover points methinks?) and Reading (for the North Downs route).

In the London area you would still have Thameslink and the West London Line, Highbury and Islington (nothing major will changeover here in the near future me-also-thinks), are potentially some stuff in the Kew area.

I would hope that emphasis on minimising the interface between different types of electrification would be felt, hence Romsey and Basingstoke par exemple.

 

[Polarbear]

As regards Merseyrail, extensions to the 3rd rail network have been on the table for many years now. Other than the extension to Hooton in the 1980's, then onward to Chester & Ellesmere Port in the 1990's, not much has happened!:roll:

For me, it would be logical to extend the 3rd rail as follows;

Kirkby - Wigan Wallgate, (with consideration given to building a spur to Skelmersdale.

Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge
Bidston - Wrexham

Can't see any other possibilities up north for 3rd rail.

 

[TomJ93]

That map can't be right? Some areas that are dual aren't there (upto MKC on the WCML) and what is the random stretch of OHLE outside Ashford?

 

[OxtedL]

That random stretch would be HS1 related.

MKC puzzles me though, but I'm not too fussed. Not actually being "dual" for most of the length... Does raise the eyebrows though...

 

[Ze Random One]

That map can't be right? Some areas that are dual aren't there (upto MKC on the WCML) and what is the random stretch of OHLE outside Ashford?

Surely you mean Bushey on the WCML? Although AFAICT it's only Camden Jn - Euston that is dual OHL/3rd Rail, it's just that the Watford DC lines share the majority of their right-of-way with the WCML.

I think the random stretch of OHL in the Folkestone area might be Dollands Moor?

Update: You can actually see things better if you turn some of the layers off - they overlap each other otherwise. To do this in Adobe Reader - On the menu, go to View > Navigation Panels and ensure Layers is ticked. Then click the eye icon next to the layer name in the side panel to turn the respective layer off. So turning 25kV AC Overhead off reveals the Watford DC lines underneath. HTH.

 

[swt_passenger]

How often do you find a mix of overhead and third rail?

I could readily imagine a time that the wires will reach Southampton (via Reading). Indeed it would make a lot of sense considering the volume of movements between Southampton & the Midlands.

For technical reasons they prefer to only have a short section of dual electrification if at all possible - Basingstoke would be a bit of a nightmare if it needed dual systems all the way from the station to Worting Jn.

I agree with OxtedL about Romsey though - it would be far easier to have a short dual voltage section there rather than both at Southampton and Eastleigh...

 

[Class172]

For some reason, and I don't know why, but I would have liked to have seen the Snow Hill lines 3rd rail electrified - it would work as it's a suburban line - but there's no chance of it happening now. OHLE isn't that far off for the line, it ranks quite highly in terms of whats to be electrified next.

 

[OxtedL]

Yup, the Snow Hill lines have got to be a good bet. (Although the BCR of 0.9 in the electrification RUS raises a few eyebrows...) Particularly with the record of infrastructure investment by Chiltern. Lets hope it continues.

This raises the question of the line to Aylesbury (which I had forgotten...). One pontificates about whether it will ever be practical to fully electrify this, and where switchovers/dual sections would have to be.

 

[ushawk]

Snow Hill would be better with OHLE as then if there is a problem of sorts, current LM stock could cover services. Could intergrate better with the Cross-City line too.

 

[OxtedL]

Sorry, I did intend to write OHLE for the Snow Hill in my post...

Other than electrification, what are the prospects currently for sending Cross-City trains through Snow Hill during significant disruption?

 

[Class172]

Sorry, I did intend to write OHLE for the Snow Hill in my post...

Other than electrification, what are the prospects currently for sending Cross-City trains through Snow Hill during significant disruption?

No chance! For starts, it's not electrified; if you could somehow route a southbound cross-city train via Moor St (none of the chords permit such movements). Then, the trains couldn't go any further south anyway, as the next meeting point would be Droitwich Spa, and that isn't even on the cross-city

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As regards Merseyrail, extensions to the 3rd rail network have been on the table for many years now. Other than the extension to Hooton in the 1980's, then onward to Chester & Ellesmere Port in the 1990's, not much has happened!:roll:

For me, it would be logical to extend the 3rd rail as follows;

Kirkby - Wigan Wallgate, (with consideration given to building a spur to Skelmersdale.

Ormskirk - Burscough Bridge
Bidston - Wrexham

Can't see any other possibilities up north for 3rd rail.

Do you think not that there would be a certain amount of political backlash against the extension of 3rd rail any further than it now is. The extension to Chester was a logical move, as there were no conflicts of interest.

The Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge proposal is only an extension to the next stop further down the line on a single line branch, so there is no conflict of interest here.

Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate. The existing line from what was Fazakerley Junction to the existing terminus is single track. From Kirkby onwards to Rainford is a long stretch of single track, then it is double track from Rainford to Wigan Wallgate with the Upholland tunnel. Part of your route is in the area administered by Lancashire County Council and the line from Orrell into Wigan Wallgate is administered by Wigan, a body within Greater Manchester. I cannot comment on Lancashire County Council, but I assure you that any proposal to introduce 3rd rail Merseyrail electrification into TfGM territory would be met with implacable opposition. TfGM have a long term plan for rail in their remit and it does not include 3rd rail electrification, as their budgetry controls are fixed upon the future expansion of the Manchester Metrolink system. The Ordsall Chord permission has enabled much to be planned for with regard to an improvement in passenger and freight movements.

Bidston to Wrexham. From the days of the electrification of the Liverpool and Birkenhead railways, no determined moves were made to provide 3rd rail electrification on this line. Bidston station always gave the image of a frontier post. The line was worked by DMU and this seemed to fit into the central Wirral area then onwards via Hawarden Bridge into North Wales to the terminus at Wrexham. You would have Cheshire West and the WAG and their administered area to budget finance for such a project. I think that the line passenger loadings would be called into question as part of a passenger cost ratio financial analysis when submitting the case for this route.

 

[WatcherZero]

Electrification is on their agenda too, there wouldnt be any problem with it being third rail and Wallgate is the logical terminus of the 3rd rail electrification. However some people along the line that enjoy through services beyond Wigan would lose out and have to change. However their talking of reducing the services from Kirkby to Manchester back to just a Wigan-Kirkby shuttle anyway, extending electrification would remove that potential diesel island, it would also make possible a Wigan-Skem service if Merseyrail spur to Skem was built.

 

[OxtedL]

Sorry, I have recently mentioned this on another thread, but how similar are 507/8s to 313s? If they are capable, would you mind taking them off Southern's hands for dual voltage routes?

 

[ushawk]

Sorry, I have recently mentioned this on another thread, but how similar are 507/8s to 313s? If they are capable, would you mind taking them off Southern's hands for dual voltage routes?

Bit late with the pantographs all removed Would need them all replaced, that and i think the 313's are now well suited to their routes down here, except the Brighton-Portsmouth, which i still dont believe they are suitable on.

Be easier third railing the Southern "diesel islands", including the Marshlink line, B'Stoke - Salisbury (including the Romsey 6 line), North Downs (then transfer to SWT) and as mentioned on another topic, the Oxted line. These will free up quite a few Turbostars and some Sprinters for the North and West. And Turbos will be freed up for other parts of the FGW network.

 

[OxtedL]

Basingstoke-Salisbury and the Romsey loop remain the only blurry lines (no pun intended ) on this whole 3rd rail/OHLE boundary map, I think.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I know Merseyrail wanted Preston-Ormskirk and Wigan-Kirkby third railed in obne of their long term ambitions a while ago, would make sense, after all, Preston-Liverpool is shortest through Ormskirk, and you could get the northern part doubled and get good service frequencies, maybe 2tph Liverpool-Ormskirk and 2tph extended through to Preston...

 

[Polarbear]

Do you think not that there would be a certain amount of political backlash against the extension of 3rd rail any further than it now is.

Oh probably! As I suggested in my original post, most of the ideas about extending the 3rd rail network for Merseyrail were floated around 30 odd years ago & nothing concrete has happened since.

From Kirkby, I expect what's most likely to happen is an extension of the 3rd rail to Skelmersdale, by means of a new link toward the town centre. This link could also be used by a diesel service running from the Wigan direction.

An extension to Burscough has been on the backburner for many years. I seem to recall a lack of interest by Lancs CC (and lack of funding) as being the main obsticles here.

As regards Bidston - Wrexham, I also have doubts to whether the passenger numbers would stack up. However, interest has been shown by several parties over the last few years, with various options being considered. A scheme was priced up by NR but came in as mega expensive so was not proceeded with. Certainly, I can see merit in opening some additional stations at the northern end of this line & extending the 3rd rail to the Woodchurch area. Going all the way to Wrexham would be more for operating convenience (eliminating the need for an isolated diesel service).

 

[Ministry]

Looking at the map I'd say it'd make sense to run the 3rd rail network out to Exeter St. Davids from Weymouth, with overhead lines connecting there from Bristol. It's interesting to think that there would be problems with electrifying the line around Plymouth because of the sea wall - the thought that it just wouldn't be wise to electrify some sections of track hadn't occurred to me.

 

[swt_passenger]

Basingstoke-Salisbury and the Romsey loop remain the only blurry lines (no pun intended ) on this whole 3rd rail/OHLE boundary map, I think.

Both are effectively down as 'not sure' AC/DC in the electrification RUS. If NR weren't able to make their minds up, I doubt we will...

 

[LE Greys]

Looking at the map I'd say it'd make sense to run the 3rd rail network out to Exeter St. Davids from Weymouth, with overhead lines connecting there from Bristol. It's interesting to think that there would be problems with electrifying the line around Plymouth because of the sea wall - the thought that it just wouldn't be wise to electrify some sections of track hadn't occurred to me.

This of course being the site of the Atmospheric Railway, something I imagine Brunel would have abandoned if electrification was available. There's always the possibility of building an inland route, as the GWR proposed to do in the 1940s, leaving the sea wall for local trains, goods and railtours. Exeter is probably the likely western boundary, with Salisbury an intermediate stopping point (extending some Basingstoke trains out there seems like a natural development of the current service). Personally, I'd prefer to see the Weymouth line converted to overhead, partly so that XC can go electric one day, partly to raise the possibility of 125 mph running. However, it's very unlikely.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh probably! As I suggested in my original post, most of the ideas about extending the 3rd rail network for Merseyrail were floated around 30 odd years ago & nothing concrete has happened since.

From Kirkby, I expect what's most likely to happen is an extension of the 3rd rail to Skelmersdale, by means of a new link toward the town centre. This link could also be used by a diesel service running from the Wigan direction.

Skelmersdale is a good choice for consideration for rail connection as it is one of the "new towns" that were built after the war. The arterial road system was very much designed for car and vehicle useage. The existing bus station is on a first floor level at the shopping centre, with ramp access for buses.

There is a strong Liverpool affinity in areas of Skelmersdale and there are numerous business units in the town area.

The problem here is that Skelmersdale is administered by Lancashire County Council and I am sure that a town of that size and population would have been looked at in terms of strategic planning by Lancashire County Council over the years since it was constructed.

 

[Gareth]

Skem's one of the largest towns in the country without a rail station. Lancashire County Council would probably be quite happey to see the town put on the Merseyrail. Certainly, as Merseytravel would probably end up investing in much of the infrastructure required, such as managing the station.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However some people along the line that enjoy through services beyond Wigan would lose out and have to change.

Some of the loadings from Orrell to Daisy Hill, Atherton and Manchester Victoria would be quite unhappy at losing direct services. The people that I know who commute from Orrell to Daisy Hill and Atherton would immediately switch to their cars. How do I know...because I have just telephoned them. They were somewhat pacified when I said this was just part of a transport quiz I had entered.:roll:

 

[First class]

With regards to Merseyrail 3rd rail extenstion, just a few ideas, some more hopeful than others:

Liverpool-Kirkby-Wigan Wallgate
Liverpool-Kirkby-Skem
Liverpool-Ormskirk-Burscough-Southport
Liverpool-Ormskirk-Burscough-Preston
Liverpool-Hooton-Chester-Crewe
Liverpool-Hooton-Ellesmere Port-Helsby-(Runcorn-Liverpool/ Halton Curve circular?)
Liverpool-Bidston-Wrexham Central

In terms of what will almost certainly go ahead:

Liverpool-Kirkby-Headbolt Lane with double track reinstated

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With the extension of the Merseyrail 3rd rail system in mind, hoping that I do not horrify the conservationists, how about reopening the West Kirby to Hooton line?