Ex LM 321 TSO's to be scrapped

[43074]

Make that 10, looks like Scotrail are having another 3 321 conversions.

According to Today's Railways UK, who are normally pretty good on these matters, the three extra units (321401, 403 & 404) will run as 4-car sets to displace 3-car 380s to strengthen services on the North Berwick line until the 385s arrive.

 

[D365]

Make that 10, looks like Scotrail are having another 3 321 conversions.

The three 321s from Great Northern will reportedly remain in their as-built configuration.

 

[bramling]

Glasgow suburban services via the "low level" lines work on a basis of 3/6-car formations. 4-car units would be too long to double up with other units.

A better solution, from the passenger point of view, would be for the units to have remained 4-cars, displacing 3-car single units, which would then be used to make a 6-car. However I can understand why that may be awkward to achieve with the realities of diagramming etc.

 

[keithheller18]

Morning,

The coaches you all refer to are not TSO's. They are or were Auxilary Trailer Standard coaches. Or ATS! When London Midland lost the 321's to go to Scotrail in 2015 the coach was split from the formation & gutted mostly underneath. Of course as part of the refurb of the 3 car formation the auxilary equipment got distributed to the remaining trailers & the new toilet was installed in the Pan Motor Coach. Or PMS. So the coaches that have been sat in the yard at the plant at Donny have been rotting in the weather ever since. Some of the coaches are also missing doors.

 

[D365]

Morning,

The coaches you all refer to are not TSO's. They are or were Auxilary Trailer Standard coaches. Or ATS!

I thought the whole point of ScotRail taking on the Class 321s, rather than any spare Class 319s, was that there is no auxiliary equipment built into the trailer coach that needed relocating.

Also, I don't think that the term 'ATS' is used within the British railway industry.

 

[keithheller18]

I signed the units as a guard. So what's your expert opinion on the units then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the whole point of ScotRail taking on the Class 321s, rather than any spare Class 319s, was that there is no auxiliary equipment built into the trailer coach that needed relocating.

It is - the underframe of those coaches is pretty much empty bar an air reservoir. Very traditional in appearance compared with what we are used to with modern stock having equipment slung near all the way along.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7404/14159427446_648ef60307_b.jpg shows it on the Renatus unit.

 

[Z12XE]

The compressor is under that vehicle on the 4 car verisons

 

[keithheller18]

Because Scotrail already had their class 320/4's built as original 3 car units in the 80's they was crying out for extra capacity. Seeing as they were short of class 170's. So step forward the 331's from LM. The ATS coach was easy to loose & then standardise to the 320/4's. 3 & 4 coach formations when coupled in multiple cause too many problems with platform & depot lengths.

 

[D365]

Seeing as they were short of class 170's. So step forward the 331's from LM.

Eh? ScotRail will have a surplus of DMUs following their electrification programmes, not to mention that they will be retaining 13 additional Class 170s on top of what was planned. The tone in that remark is uncalled for and not really appropriate.

For the record, I don't appreciate you dismissing my expertise. The reason that I am a member of these forums is so that I can learn from others in the industry.

 

[keithheller18]

Well at a time when The Borders Railway has opened with an explosion in passenger numbers & Scotrail are struggling to cope with increasing passenger numbers on their other routes. The last thing they wanted was to loose class 170's off their express routes. Such as the Glasgow- Edinburgh route. That's always crow bared. The industry does need more train across the country. But the DfT hold the purse strings nowadays & far too tightly.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well at a time when The Borders Railway has opened with an explosion in passenger numbers & Scotrail are struggling to cope with increasing passenger numbers on their other routes. The last thing they wanted was to loose class 170's off their express routes. Such as the Glasgow- Edinburgh route. That's always crow bared. The industry does need more train across the country. But the DfT hold the purse strings nowadays & far too tightly.

Try SNP....

 

[D365]

Well at a time when The Borders Railway has opened with an explosion in passenger numbers & Scotrail are struggling to cope with increasing passenger numbers on their other routes. The last thing they wanted was to loose class 170's off their express routes. Such as the Glasgow- Edinburgh route. That's always crow bared. The industry does need more train across the country. But the DfT hold the purse strings nowadays & far too tightly.

Which is why the EGIP electrification is in progress and the Class 385s under construction. As for other routes currently operated by Class 170s, four and five car HSTs are being introduced which makes up the balance.

I thought it quite generous of *the relevant transport authority in Scotland* to sanction the retainment of 13 additional units, seeing as Northern (for example) is in dire need of modern diesels.

 

[IanXC]

I thought it quite generous of DfT to sanction the retainment of 13 additional units, seeing as Northern (for example) is in dire need of modern diesels.

The DfT didn't have anything to do with it!

 

[talltim]

Surely the reconfigured units should have been numbered 423s
Geddit?
I'll get my coat

 

[swt class 450]

Apologies if mentioned elsewhere, but I couldn't find any existing threads on this topic
According to the RAIL Magazine, the 7 Class 321 TSO's (71959-71966) which were removed from 321411-417 are to be scrapped.

My personal opinion on this is that Eversholt could have at least retained these TSO's as spares in case anything happened to its BREL MK3 stock (318/320/321/455) since the last vehicle they kept spare (67301) was sold to Porterbrook and is now in 455 913. Alternatively, they could have been used in the first 7 455/7's enabling the old 508 TSO's to be scrapped instead.

This is absoulutely crazy! Especially when overcrowding is such a big issue all over the UK! Surely if Abellio Scotrail dont want them they could be used to lengthen some of the Abellio Greater Anglia 321s to improve capacity? Or possibly they could be used to lengthen the Northern Rail 321s or 322s as well? It seem a waste to scrap perfectly good fairly modern trains.

 

[Marklund]

It seem a waste to scrap perfectly good fairly modern trains.

They're not "perfectly good" though.
Equipment has been moved to the remaining 3 cars, and as has been said, other parts have been cannibalised on these 28 year old vehicles.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is absoulutely crazy! Especially when overcrowding is such a big issue all over the UK! Surely if Abellio Scotrail dont want them they could be used to lengthen some of the Abellio Greater Anglia 321s to improve capacity? Or possibly they could be used to lengthen the Northern Rail 321s or 322s as well?

Lengthening random EMUs by 25% extra by simply adding an unpowered trailer isn't likely to happen, given that there is almost never going to be enough spare capacity in the existing traction package.

(The 458/5s were a different matter, because they redistributed motor coaches.)

 

[A0]

This is absoulutely crazy! Especially when overcrowding is such a big issue all over the UK! Surely if Abellio Scotrail dont want them they could be used to lengthen some of the Abellio Greater Anglia 321s to improve capacity? Or possibly they could be used to lengthen the Northern Rail 321s or 322s as well? It seem a waste to scrap perfectly good fairly modern trains.

Impractical for a multitude of reasons - not least:

- adding trailers would impact the performance of the units.
- infrastructure - units are normally allocated to services where platforms are 3/6 car or 4/8 car length - in fact it's the reason why Scotrail removed these trailers to begin with. Whether there was a better option for Scotrail than taking on 4 car units and reducing them is a reasonable question though.

 

[43096]

(The 458/5s were a different matter, because they redistributed motor coaches.)

In what sense?

 

[cjmillsnun]

(The 458/5s were a different matter, because they redistributed motor coaches.)

I would argue more that the 458/5s were a different matter because they made a fleet of (technically if not 100% visibly) identical trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

In what sense?

My mistake. They started with 3 of 4 motored and ended up with 3 of 5 motored. But they were also re-geared to a different speed. That still gives a relatively high ratio of motor to trailer coaches, unlike the 1 of 4 of a 321.

 

[Marklund]

In what sense?

I'd imagine a microfleet of a different power to weight ratio fictional 5 car Class 321, where there is no motor modifications, compared with a complete rebuild (including regearing/reducing top speed) of the 458/460 is the difference.

What the power to weight ratio of the before and after 458 is, I'll leave that to you to.

 

[Wivenswold]

While we're at it, why don't GWR put these coaches in some of their HST consists? They are all Mk3 after all and they'd provide a high capacity coach and much needed extra capacity.

In fact, attach them to the undercarriage of a 737 and you've got......oh I'm done.

They'd make good potting sheds. Hmmmm, where's Wabtec's number?

 

[Andrew1395]

Yep bolt them altogether and stick a 37 at each end and run them up north on some sort of revival of regional railways North Danesman or the like.

 

[43096]

Put all the unfunny idiots coming up with daft ideas/"jokes" about what to do with 321 cars/442s/Pacers/anything else spare into them, take any mobile devices off them and weld the doors up.

 

[reddragon]

A picture showing the current state of these coaches would be good to see.

Does anyone have one?

 

[BestWestern]

Make it a 67 and that would work for the Fife circle crowd buster.

Do the TSOs have a cludgie?

Go on then, enlighten us....WTF is one of them?

A 'cludgie' I mean; I know what a 67 is!

 

[SC318250]

Toilet

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't believe they have a loo. As built, 321s had 2 toilets beneath the pan. The accessible loos have been put in various places for different operators. Northern 321/322s have them in one of the driving trailers.