Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Caaardiff]

Everything to do with these Mk4s is just TfW (government) vanity. The kitchen on the Cardiff Holyhead was always funded by WG. Hopefully services are busy and popular enough to warrant it on the Manchester services. The only thing they saw here is some shiny trains (albeit a bit worn), that beat comfort levels of current stock, flashed the cash and purchased them outright thinking it'll be the making of the Marches route.

They will be a marked improvement on comfort levels but hopefully they'll stay the course and reliability will be good, as they're going to be around for some time.

 

[craigybagel]

They will be a marked improvement on comfort levels but hopefully they'll stay the course and reliability will be good, as they're going to be around for some time.

Ironically the increase in service should also result in an increase in reliability, now that the traincrew and engineering staff working on them will be spending a lot more time on them.

 

[Philip]

Are some 175s likely to be running in multiple on this route from December to cover the hours not served by the LHCS, with similar capacity, until the 197s start?

The 16:30 off Manchester is set to be formed of 4 mk4 coaches from December; I'd have thought the 17:30 is a busier service but this is set to remain as a DMU in the new timetable.

 

[craigybagel]

Are some 175s likely to be running in multiple on this route from December to cover the hours not served by the LHCS with similar capacity, until the 197s start?

There will be need to be some level of services running in multiple, as the timetable in the evening seems to require units to spilt in Manchester and form separate services back south. It is not yet known what these units will consist of, or if other services will run in multiple.

The 16:30 off Manchester is set to be formed of 4 mk4 coaches from December; I'd have thought the 17:30 is a busier service but this is set to remain as a DMU in the new timetable.

The 1730 is indeed the busiest departure, but it doesn't fit into the even every 2 hours pattern. If you swapped it so that it was every odd half hour that used MKIVs and not every even half hour from Manchester then the busiest arrival (at around 0815) would go from MKIVs to DMU. Something has to give.

 

[Envoy]

I wonder if the Mk4 services are spaced out between Cardiff & Shrewsbury being as that section will have both the Holyheads & Manchesters? The ideal situation would surely be to have them 1 hour apart with 197’s in between.

 

[berneyarms]

I wonder if the Mk4 services are spaced out between Cardiff & Shrewsbury being as that section will have both the Holyheads & Manchesters? The ideal situation would surely be to have them 1 hour apart with 197’s in between.

You can see the times on Real Time Trains.

The Holyheads and Manchesters aren’t timed together for now so you will have two services close to one another at certain times.

I think you will have to wait for the timetable recast for this sort of thing to happen.

 

[Steveswan10]

If and when the new Liverpool-Cardiff service starts (I assume that's still going ahead next year) will that be 197's working on them?

 

[Anonymous10]

If and when the new Liverpool-Cardiff service starts (I assume that's still going ahead next year) will that be 197's working on them?

yes there isn't enough mk4s for it to be run by them

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Don't forget the "clapped out" Mk4s, and the class 67s, will need replacing long before the 197s.

 

[Steveswan10]

yes there isn't enough mk4s for it to be run by them

Thank you Anonymous10, had the idea it would be but wasn't sure

 

[Roger B]

Don't forget the "clapped out" Mk4s, and the class 67s, will need replacing long before the 197s.

Assuming the build quality and durability of the 197s are sufficient to grant them longevity!

 

[Rhydgaled]

I wonder if the Mk4 services are spaced out between Cardiff & Shrewsbury being as that section will have both the Holyheads & Manchesters? The ideal situation would surely be to have them 1 hour apart with 197’s in between.

The Holyheads and Manchesters aren’t timed together for now so you will have two services close to one another at certain times.

I think you will have to wait for the timetable recast for this sort of thing to happen.

Even with a recast, it's not that simple. Surely you would want the TfW service to have clockface arrival and departure times at MAN and since that is hourly the Manchester trains are going to be roughly an hour apart leaving Shrewsbury. You could shift it a little by having the 197s call at Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem but that's only going to shift it by about 6 minutes, possibly less because the 197s are designed for that sort of local-stopper type of thing with short dwell times and rapid acceleration.

Therefore, the Holyhead to Cardiff mark 4s either couldn't depart Shrewsbury exactly an hour after the mark 4s from MAN (because the 197 from MAN would be in that path) or you would have two trains (a mark 4 rake from Holyhead and a 197 from Manchester) leaving Shrewsbury 6 minutes after each other then potentially nothing for 54 minutes.

Another way of looking at it is, do you try and get an hourly service of mark 4s between Cardiff and Shrewsbury (some to Manchester and others to Holyhead) or do you try and run a nice even 30 minute interval service between Cardiff and Shrewsbury (some to Wrexham/Holyhead/Chester and others to Manchester)? In the latter case isn't there always going to be a gap of 30 minutes between two mark 4 sets followed by a gap of 90 minutes before the next mark 4 service (I realise that doesn't quite apply here because not all the Holyhead-Cardiff diagrams are mark 4s, but you still can't get the mark 4s to run an hour apart)?

 

[Flying Snail]

As I understand it, there is no intention of increasing the Mk4 Holyheads beyond 3 each way so combining with Manchesters to make a regular Mk4 is moot anyway.

 

[markymark2000]

Is the menu on the lunch-time mark 4 services between Holyhead and Cardiff similar to that on the evening runs?

I don't know about in First but the normal cafe thing has Nachos, Pizzas, Pies and Baugettes on offer for hot food, not a clue for cold food.

Everything to do with these Mk4s is just TfW (government) vanity. The kitchen on the Cardiff Holyhead was always funded by WG. Hopefully services are busy and popular enough to warrant it on the Manchester services.

The kitchen and cafe would be a damn sight busier if people knew it existed and knew what was on offer. I only know about the cafe because a friend posted a photo of their pizza on social media so I kind of found out through them but I never knew the cafe car was open. Even if I knew it was open, I certainly wouldn't have guessed pizza was available if they hadn't posted the photo. When you get to the cafe car, it looks more like a reception desk with a coffee machine, that's basically all that you can see available. Everything else you have to ask what they have got. Hot food they give you a menu which is good but that menu isn't available online so you only know if you ask for it. Cold food, not a clue what is on offer beyond that. Even with how trolley carts are, you can see more of what is on offer from them as they pass through versus the static cafe car.






Since my previous comments on the MK4s, the more that I travel on them (around twice per month), I keep finding more and more faults with them. It's such a shame that some incompetent team has been put in charge of sorting these for service. I've now found out that the PA talks over the guard. We got disrupted and the guard was making manual announcements with updates and later with alternative travel arrangements and no word of a lie, every time he picked up the PA, 20 seconds later, the auto PA would turn down the volume for the guard and start talking over him. I presume the guard was in the DVT so couldn't hear the fact the auto PA was talking over him (As the guard kept talking anyway). The PA would keep spouting robotic rubbish and would let the poor man speak. Needless to say, people didn't get alternative journey options since the shambles of a PA system wouldn't let passengers hear.
The PA is also robotic as heck and delays are often wrong citing '10 minutes late' yet in actual fact it's now back on time. It seems to work off time, not off mileage so if you arrive early into Shrewsbury (As there is a lot of pathing time), you sit in the platform with the doors open for 2 minutes and then it pops up 'we are now approaching Shrewsbury'. during the time of disruption sat in Shrewsbury awaiting the tree to be moved off the line, we had announcements saying we were now at Gobowen and at Chirk. Must have been some kind of LED screens we had not proper windows as all I could see when I looked out was Shrewsbury station.

I absolutely love the idea and they are comfier and they have the cafe which sells delicious pizza and all that good stuff but the onboard systems are frankly awful.

 

[Envoy]

Even with a recast, it's not that simple. Surely you would want the TfW service to have clockface arrival and departure times at MAN and since that is hourly the Manchester trains are going to be roughly an hour apart leaving Shrewsbury. You could shift it a little by having the 197s call at Nantwich, Whitchurch and Wem but that's only going to shift it by about 6 minutes, possibly less because the 197s are designed for that sort of local-stopper type of thing with short dwell times and rapid acceleration.

Therefore, the Holyhead to Cardiff mark 4s either couldn't depart Shrewsbury exactly an hour after the mark 4s from MAN (because the 197 from MAN would be in that path) or you would have two trains (a mark 4 rake from Holyhead and a 197 from Manchester) leaving Shrewsbury 6 minutes after each other then potentially nothing for 54 minutes.

Another way of looking at it is, do you try and get an hourly service of mark 4s between Cardiff and Shrewsbury (some to Manchester and others to Holyhead) or do you try and run a nice even 30 minute interval service between Cardiff and Shrewsbury (some to Wrexham/Holyhead/Chester and others to Manchester)? In the latter case isn't there always going to be a gap of 30 minutes between two mark 4 sets followed by a gap of 90 minutes before the next mark 4 service (I realise that doesn't quite apply here because not all the Holyhead-Cardiff diagrams are mark 4s, but you still can't get the mark 4s to run an hour apart)?

Many thanks for the detailed explanation. I should have thought of that before suggesting the hourly service on the southern leg!

I see that the Holyheads leave Cardiff at 7.20am and 9.20am - which is a shame as for leisure travellers say doing a day trip to Chester, 7.20 is too early and 9.20 too late. To leave at a more convenient time, they would have to take a Manchester service as far as Crewe and then change to Avanti.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==

I don't know about in First but the normal cafe thing has Nachos, Pizzas, Pies and Baugettes on offer for hot food, not a clue for cold food.


The kitchen and cafe would be a damn sight busier if people knew it existed and knew what was on offer. I only know about the cafe because a friend posted a photo of their pizza on social media so I kind of found out through them but I never knew the cafe car was open. Even if I knew it was open, I certainly wouldn't have guessed pizza was available if they hadn't posted the photo. When you get to the cafe car, it looks more like a reception desk with a coffee machine, that's basically all that you can see available. Everything else you have to ask what they have got. Hot food they give you a menu which is good but that menu isn't available online so you only know if you ask for it. Cold food, not a clue what is on offer beyond that. Even with how trolley carts are, you can see more of what is on offer from them as they pass through versus the static cafe car.






Since my previous comments on the MK4s, the more that I travel on them (around twice per month), I keep finding more and more faults with them. It's such a shame that some incompetent team has been put in charge of sorting these for service. I've now found out that the PA talks over the guard. We got disrupted and the guard was making manual announcements with updates and later with alternative travel arrangements and no word of a lie, every time he picked up the PA, 20 seconds later, the auto PA would turn down the volume for the guard and start talking over him. I presume the guard was in the DVT so couldn't hear the fact the auto PA was talking over him (As the guard kept talking anyway). The PA would keep spouting robotic rubbish and would let the poor man speak. Needless to say, people didn't get alternative journey options since the shambles of a PA system wouldn't let passengers hear.
The PA is also robotic as heck and delays are often wrong citing '10 minutes late' yet in actual fact it's now back on time. It seems to work off time, not off mileage so if you arrive early into Shrewsbury (As there is a lot of pathing time), you sit in the platform with the doors open for 2 minutes and then it pops up 'we are now approaching Shrewsbury'. during the time of disruption sat in Shrewsbury awaiting the tree to be moved off the line, we had announcements saying we were now at Gobowen and at Chirk. Must have been some kind of LED screens we had not proper windows as all I could see when I looked out was Shrewsbury station.

Whoever has signed off these trains go out in this state wants firing. I absolutely love the idea and they are comfier and they have the cafe which sells delicious pizza and all that good stuff but the onboard systems are frankly awful.

What a shambles - you would think that they would get things right for these ‘new’ services. You would also think that they would perhaps come around and hand out menus to the passengers to make them aware of what was on offer.

 

[sd0733]

Lots of the things mentioned in the last couple of posts are known issues and the team behind it, who certainly aren't incompetent or need to be fired, are trying to get rectified.
The dire situation with stock meant that the Mk4s had to be put out when timetables rose after covid with very little slack to then do work on them other than routine maintenance. Having them out in service, even in a not ideal way, meant it was possible to get the massive amount of training going at Cardiff and Crewe for the extra sets and to not take an extra 2 units out the normal fleet and provide extra capacity, particularly down the North Wales coast.
The first ex GC rake is very nearly ready for service once the shakedown runs to Manchester are complete allowing an existing set to go for overhaul and SDO fitting. At some stage there will also be upgrades to kitchen equipment which will allow the food offerings to be upgraded and increased, wider range of hot drinks etc after that I believe there will be a launch of the enhanced catering on the sets, until then its deemed necessary to pretty much qjust tick along. I can't say I agree with every decision made along the way but there are reasons behind most decisions and what are deemed faults.as to why they aren't perfect.
Ideally all sets would be in service only when all refurb, mods and work had been done and due to again having to get the additional sets out in service to cover losing units it'll be a few months yet until everything is 100% finished and set up as the finished product.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Lots of the things mentioned in the last couple of posts are known issues and the team behind it, who certainly aren't incompetent or need to be fired, are trying to get rectified.
The dire situation with stock meant that the Mk4s had to be put out when timetables rose after covid with very little slack to then do work on them other than routine maintenance. Having them out in service, even in a not ideal way, meant it was possible to get the massive amount of training going at Cardiff and Crewe for the extra sets and to not take an extra 2 units out the normal fleet and provide extra capacity, particularly down the North Wales coast.
The first ex GC rake is very nearly ready for service once the shakedown runs to Manchester are complete allowing an existing set to go for overhaul and SDO fitting. At some stage there will also be upgrades to kitchen equipment which will allow the food offerings to be upgraded and increased, wider range of hot drinks etc after that I believe there will be a launch of the enhanced catering on the sets, until then its deemed necessary to pretty much qjust tick along. I can't say I agree with every decision made along the way but there are reasons behind most decisions and what are deemed faults.as to why they aren't perfect.
Ideally all sets would be in service only when all refurb, mods and work had been done and due to again having to get the additional sets out in service to cover losing units it'll be a few months yet until everything is 100% finished and set up as the finished product.

When the existing sets go for mods, is there any plan for a repaint at all? It would be nice to have a standardised livery. And do you know whether the ex GC DVTs will have advertising liveries applied like the existing sets?

 

[Caaardiff]

I see that the Holyheads leave Cardiff at 7.20am and 9.20am - which is a shame as for leisure travellers say doing a day trip to Chester, 7.20 is too early and 9.20 too late. To leave at a more convenient time, they would have to take a Manchester service as far as Crewe and then change to Avanti.

The first Holyhead leaves around 0645, which gets you into Chester for 0950. If you want to do a day trip and leave at 0800 it would be gone 1100 by the time you get in to Chester. The timetable is made like that to suit the whole day, because the 0645 services goes to Holyhead and back and makes the 1716 service Cardiff - Holyhead. Perfect for commuters and also aimed at anyone from the North doing business in Cardiff for the day. There is much more demand for that cycle than leaving an hour or so later from Cardiff for a couple of day trippers.

 

[sd0733]

What a shambles - you would think that they would get things right for these ‘new’ services. You would also think that they would perhaps come around and hand out menus to the passengers to make them aware of what was on offer.

A lot of the catering crews are now getting a lot more proactive at that, making PAs and walking through the standard coaches.
Just having stickers would have helped saying there was a buffet as people do wait for the trolley

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2022 ==

When the existing sets go for mods, is there any plan for a repaint at all? It would be nice to have a standardised livery. And do you know whether the ex GC DVTs will have advertising liveries applied like the existing sets?

They'll definitely get a repaint, yes. Wether its at this point isn't yet known but its definitely in the pipeline as they are due one on their overhaul schedules
Not sure about advert livery I'm afraid

 

[markymark2000]

A lot of the catering crews are now getting a lot more proactive at that, making PAs and walking through the standard coaches.
Just having stickers would have helped saying there was a buffet as people do wait for the trolley

Crew Announcements are useless when the stupid auto announcement system talks over all manual.

 

[GWVillager]

Crew Announcements are useless when the stupid auto announcement system talks over all manual.

Yes but they're dealing with that issue, and the auto announcements are hardly going on 24/7! Buffet staff are also in a position to hear when they're going on, unlike the Guards in the DVT.

 

[Envoy]

The first Holyhead leaves around 0645, which gets you into Chester for 0950. If you want to do a day trip and leave at 0800 it would be gone 1100 by the time you get in to Chester. The timetable is made like that to suit the whole day, because the 0645 services goes to Holyhead and back and makes the 1716 service Cardiff - Holyhead. Perfect for commuters and also aimed at anyone from the North doing business in Cardiff for the day. There is much more demand for that cycle than leaving an hour or so later from Cardiff for a couple of day trippers.

Many thanks for the explanation and I am pleased to see that the known issues will be addressed in due course. Perhaps few day trippers go to Chester from Cardiff and Newport because of the too early/late start in the morning of the direct trains? I note that the Northern Belle has been making several trips this summer along this route and has not arrived in Cardiff until around 1pm. - but that has started at places further away such as Preston and Manchester.

If they get the fares right, with the Mk4’s on The Marches along with dining, we could well see people doing the Bristol to Manchester run being induced to use the TfW services instead of going Cross Country on cramped Voyagers via Birmingham. Of course, that would mean including the GWR fare for the short hop to Newport - which is likely to be on an awful 165/6.

 

[krus_aragon]

If they get the fares right, with the Mk4’s on The Marches along with dining, we could well see people doing the Bristol to Manchester run being induced to use the TfW services instead of going Cross Country on cramped Voyagers via Birmingham. Of course, that would mean including the GWR fare for the short hop to Newport - which is likely to be on an awful 165/6.

If you mean fare as in payment, Bristol to Manchester via Newport and Shrewsbury is a valid route on a single ticket (map MP on the routeing guide). If you mean fare as in provisions and catering, well, yeah...

 

[Bob Price]

A rake of GC livery Mk4's propelled by a 67 has just passed Crewe webcam on 5Z00 from Crewe CS to Longsight. Interesting to see a name plate on the DVT. It is a TfW service and includes passing Manchester Deansgate, Oxford rd and Piccadilly platform 13.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A rake of GC livery Mk4's propelled by a 67 has just passed Crewe webcam on 5Z00 from Crewe CS to Longsight. Interesting to see a name plate on the DVT. It is a TfW service and includes passing Manchester Deansgate, Oxford rd and Piccadilly platform 13.

Running via Chester!

Realtime Trains | 5Z00 1056 Crewe C.S. to Longsight Excursion Plat | 03/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Z00 1056 departure from Crewe C.S. to Longsight Excursion Plat on 03/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2022 ==

Whoever has signed off these trains go out in this state wants firing. I absolutely love the idea and they are comfier and they have the cafe which sells delicious pizza and all that good stuff but the onboard systems are frankly awful.

I loved the auto PA at Chester (on the morning Cardiff-Holyhead) which said "This train has been delayed due a problem yet to be investigated".
The reason (only 5 minutes) was all too obvious - the train was full and standing.

 

[Philip]

I take it there are currently no plans for the 67/mk4 trains on Manchester-North Wales services? It would need crew training but I suppose once the 197s are up and running towards South Wales then some 198/mk4 diagrams could potentially swap between the north and south routes.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I take it there are currently no plans for the 67/mk4 trains on Manchester-North Wales services? It would need crew training but I suppose once the 197s are up and running towards South Wales then some 198/mk4 diagrams could potentially swap between the north and south routes.

TfW don't have enough mark 4 sets to cover Manchester-Swansea sadly, yet alone Manchester - North Wales as well.

 

[Philip]

TfW don't have enough mark 4 sets to cover Manchester-Swansea sadly, yet alone Manchester - North Wales as well.

I was asking about whether a 197 and mk4 set could be swapped between the north and south routes, so basically an extra 197 diagram between Manchester-Cardiff and the cascaded mk4 set replacing a 197 between Manchester-North Wales. Running the ECS set today from Crewe to Manchester via Chester made me wonder if they wanted a clearance run through Chester and Warrington for the mk4 set.

 

[Watershed]

I was asking about whether a 197 and mk4 set could be swapped between the north and south routes, so basically an extra 197 diagram between Manchester-Cardiff and the cascaded mk4 set replacing a 197 between Manchester-North Wales. Running the ECS set today from Crewe to Manchester via Chester made me wonder if they wanted a clearance run through Chester and Warrington for the mk4 set.

There will be a daily ECS movement each way between Crewe and Manchester via Warrington, similarly to today. Don't get your hopes up!

 

[Bikeman78]

If they get the fares right, with the Mk4’s on The Marches along with dining, we could well see people doing the Bristol to Manchester run being induced to use the TfW services instead of going Cross Country on cramped Voyagers via Birmingham. Of course, that would mean including the GWR fare for the short hop to Newport - which is likely to be on an awful 165/6.

The reduction in the number of direct Bristol to Manchester trains means lots of people are already going via Newport. The longer loco hauled trains will help with reduce the overcrowding.