Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[SuperLuke2334]

Even 1W96 Cardiff to Holyhead is starting to loose time.

They will lose time whilst the crew get used to them. Reliability will improve, I'm confident of it.

 

[sd0733]

1V33 only got as far as the first signal out of Manchester Piccadilly this morning before coming to a stand. Limped back into the station about 30 minutes late

Traction motor failure on 67015, now.been replaced by 67012

Even 1W96 Cardiff to Holyhead is starting to loose time.

So did the 2 previous trains both 175s so highly likely to be an infrastructure issue.

 

[JakeMurphy]

Well, from RTT, 1V33 was cancelled and 1V91 was started at Chester (presumably the set coming from Crewe).
But the northbounds and subsequent legs operated, if mostly running behind time.
Is that not fairly "normal" these days?

Something happened to HD06 because that’s been in Holyhead all weekend

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Something happened to HD06 because that’s been in Holyhead all weekend

67022 on that set failed. Couldn't get it back to Crewe with the rescue loco due to engineering works. Hence why 017 went over today to replace 022.

 

[33017]

Even 1W96 Cardiff to Holyhead is starting to loose time.

Mostly due to being cautioned for an overhanging tree.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

67022 on that set failed. Couldn't get it back to Crewe with the rescue loco due to engineering works. Hence why 017 went over today to replace 022.

Spotted 67022 and 67017 on a siding at Bangor this morning. ( 08:10 22 April ).

 

[sd0733]

Spotted 67022 and 67017 on a siding at Bangor this morning. ( 08:10 22 April )


View attachment 133952

Dragging brakes on 67022 so both stuck until DB have a look at it

 

[Western 52]

Dragging brakes on 67022 so both stuck until DB have a look at it

The reliability stats for this class can't be good!

 

[sd0733]

The reliability stats for this class can't be good!

They Certainly aren't this week, some trains havent made it from start to finish once this week! It's been truly dismal. A lot of the faults have been minor but still doesn't instill much confidence.

The coaches themselves are getting pretty reliable with very few faults now occuring but just recently the locos are heading backwards A lot of the issues are with the ones which came out of storage proving especially troublesome.

 

[fgwrich]

They Certainly aren't this week, some trains havent made it from start to finish once this week! It's been truly dismal. A lot of the faults have been minor but still doesn't instill much confidence.

The coaches themselves are getting pretty reliable with very few faults now occuring but just recently the locos are heading backwards A lot of the issues are with the ones which came out of storage proving especially troublesome.

There's a reason why Chiltern, despite being part of DB, were rather keen to dump them...

Why TFW didn't go for a contract with DRS and their 68s I don't know. They also have a depot in Crewe and numbers of available locos.

 

[Western 52]

There's a reason why Chiltern, despite being part of DB, were rather keen to dump them...

Why TFW didn't go for a contract with DRS and their 68s I don't know. They also have a depot in Crewe and numbers of available locos.

Are 68s compatible with the Mk4 sets though?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Are 68s compatible with the Mk4 sets though?

No. The modifications are for working with 67s only. There are also no 68s available, at least not enough of them.

 

[southernyoshi]

Sounds like they'd have been better off taking the HSTs like Scotland did. Does that mean there won't be a normal service (with the intended stock) on the mainline through Shrewsbury until the line is fully 197ed?

 

[craigybagel]

Are 68s compatible with the Mk4 sets though?

No. The modifications are for working with 67s only. There are also no 68s available, at least not enough of them.

That doesn't mean they couldn't be made compatible - the 67s weren't originally either after all. But unless TPE or Chiltern give some up (not outside the realms of possibility in either case) it's not an option right now.

Sounds like they'd have been better off taking the HSTs like Scotland did.

The Scotrail HSTs have suffered from appalling reliability as well.

Does that mean there won't be a normal service (with the intended stock) on the mainline through Shrewsbury until the line is fully 197ed?

Too early to say. Hopefully not. Lots of previously unreliable fleets get better in time, and we're still a long way off a full 197 service on the marches.

 

[Nym]

Sounds like they'd have been better off taking the HSTs like Scotland did. Does that mean there won't be a normal service (with the intended stock) on the mainline through Shrewsbury until the line is fully 197ed?

But the likes of power door mods are much more extreme than shoving 42 new wires through the coaches and a couple of extra relays.
(Granted it's a lot more work in the DVT...)

 

[Rhydgaled]

That doesn't mean they couldn't be made compatible - the 67s weren't originally either after all. But unless TPE or Chiltern give some up (not outside the realms of possibility in either case) it's not an option right now.

Why would TPE or Chiltern have to give up some 68s if TfW were to want 68s? Surely the 68s that DRS has on freight services could be covered more-easily (since a non-ETH loco would presumably be suitable) than TPE or Chiltern examples (yes, many of the DRS-liveried 68s would need push-pull controls fitted etc. but as you say that could presumably be sorted if needed)?

There are also no 68s available, at least not enough of them.

The franchise documents (back when the mark 4s were only going to be used on Holyhead-Cardiff) state that only 3 locos would be leased (one for each set planned at the time) https://trc.cymru/sites/default/files/documents/Sched 1.6_Appendices Table 2a.pdf. Surely 68s would have been an option back then (when the choice was made and only 3 were needed), despite the fact that it would not be practical to change now that the decision has been made to fit the mark 4s for operation with 67s.

Another bit of info that document presents is that the lease end date was 16/10/2033 - however the Welsh Government's national transport delivery plan (page 72) claims that:

We have leased our class 67 locomotives until only 2028 and are working with suppliers on options for low or zero emission replacements.

 

[craigybagel]

Why would TPE or Chiltern have to give up some 68s if TfW were to want 68s? Surely the 68s that DRS has on freight services could be covered more-easily (since a non-ETH loco would presumably be suitable) than TPE or Chiltern examples (yes, many of the DRS-liveried 68s would need push-pull controls fitted etc. but as you say that could presumably be sorted if needed)?

I was assuming that DRS didn't have any spare locos they could use to displace the 68s to TfW. Are there many locos as good at hauling freight as a 68 is available?

The franchise documents (back when the mark 4s were only going to be used on Holyhead-Cardiff) state that only 3 locos would be leased (one for each set planned at the time) https://trc.cymru/sites/default/files/documents/Sched 1.6_Appendices Table 2a.pdf. Surely 68s would have been an option back then (when the choice was made and only 3 were needed), despite the fact that it would not be practical to change now that the decision has been made to fit the mark 4s for operation with 67s.

By sticking with 67s for the MKIVs it meant only 2 days training for the existing loco drivers converting from MKIII to MKIVs. The full training course for TfW drivers from scratch on 67s is 3 weeks - I'm guessing something similar would have been needed for 68s. At the time, the relatively low service levels meant there wasn't a need to train any extra drivers on locos, only convert the existing ones.

Another bit of info that document presents is that the lease end date was 16/10/2033 - however the Welsh Government's national transport delivery plan (page 72) claims that:

There was a suggestion somewhere in the original franchise documents that they'd look to convert from 67s to 68s towards the end of the decade - but those documents are, like the franchise itself, now long disappeared. I'd like to think depending on how well the class 99s turn out for GBRF we may well see in a few years the development of a Bi-mode loco powerful enough to haul 6 cars up and down the Marches at line speed on diesel, and they'll replace the 67s, but I don't think we're quite there yet.

 

[Rhydgaled]

By sticking with 67s for the MKIVs it meant only 2 days training for the existing loco drivers converting from MKIII to MKIVs. The full training course for TfW drivers from scratch on 67s is 3 weeks - I'm guessing something similar would have been needed for 68s. At the time, the relatively low service levels meant there wasn't a need to train any extra drivers on locos, only convert the existing ones.

Thanks, easy to see why they stuck with 67s in that case.

 

[JakeMurphy]

Does anyone know which set is on 1W55 today? Thanks.

 

[ls2270]

Does anyone know which set is on 1W55 today? Thanks.

It’s HD04.

 

[DMUfan]

I'm planning a trip on the MK4s from Manchester to Cardiff after the May timetable change.

- Has it been confirmed yet which services will be diagrammed to operate between Manchester and Cardiff from the change?

- Is there a reliable way to know which MK4 sets are operating on a particular diagram? Realtimetrains doesn't always seem to give the set number.

Thanks a lot

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm planning a trip on the MK4s from Manchester to Cardiff after the May timetable change.

- Has it been confirmed yet which services will be diagrammed to operate between Manchester and Cardiff from the change?

- Is there a reliable way to know which MK4 sets are operating on a particular diagram? Realtimetrains doesn't always seem to give the set number.

Thanks a lot

It either gives the little image (which is inaccurate if a GC set turns up), or the number, but oddly never both.

I recommend joining a 67 Facebook group or something. They’ll have constant gen.

 

[sd0733]

I'm planning a trip on the MK4s from Manchester to Cardiff after the May timetable change.

- Has it been confirmed yet which services will be diagrammed to operate between Manchester and Cardiff from the change?

- Is there a reliable way to know which MK4 sets are operating on a particular diagram? Realtimetrains doesn't always seem to give the set number.

Thanks a lot

On weekdays The only departures from Manchester planned to be Mk4s straight away at the timetable are 06:27, 12:30 and 14:30 from Manchester and also the arrivals at 20:15 and 22:15 which return ecs.

08:30 and 16:30 from Manchester are planned to be added "early June"

10:30 and 18:30 departures are planned to be added "mid-June"

Saturdays should have 06:27, 10:30, 12:30, 14:30 and 18:30 from timetable change with the 08:30 and 16:30 added 2 weeks later. 20:15 and 22:15 arrival also Mk4s which return ecs

Sundays should be 09:30 and 15:30 departures plus the 19:15 arrival which returns ecs.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

On weekdays The only departures from Manchester planned to be Mk4s straight away at the timetable are 06:27, 12:30 and 14:30 from Manchester and also the arrivals at 20:15 and 22:15 which return ecs.

08:30 and 16:30 from Manchester are planned to be added "early June"

10:30 and 18:30 departures are planned to be added "mid-June"

Saturdays should have 06:27, 10:30, 12:30, 14:30 and 18:30 from timetable change with the 08:30 and 16:30 added 2 weeks later. 20:15 and 22:15 arrival also Mk4s which return ecs

Sundays should be 09:30 and 15:30 departures plus the 19:15 arrival which returns ecs.

And then I seem to remember 20:30, as well as being the only even-houred train to go all the way down that won’t be booked 67, is planned for what will eventually be the only 2 carriage 197 formation to run on the Shrewsbury Cardiff corridor?

 

[sd0733]

And then I seem to remember 20:30, as well as being the only even-houred train to go all the way down that won’t be booked 67, is planned for what will eventually be the only 2 carriage 197 formation to run on the Shrewsbury Cardiff corridor?

Yes that's right as it will split at Manchester off the 19:15 from Milford Haven with half forming the 19:30 back to Cardiff and the other half forming the 20:30 Cardiff.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes that's right as it will split at Manchester off the 19:15 from Milford Haven with half forming the 19:30 back to Cardiff and the other half forming the 20:30 Cardiff.

That single service being the only 2 carriage formation to run between Shrewsbury and Cardiff, with everything else as 3/5-197 or 5-MK4 is very impressive indeed considering how much 2 car running there is on this busy stretch these days. Almost all of the 3 cars are Holyheads too, which seem generally less busy than the often packed Manchesters. TfW should be commended for that, regardless of the dramas they've had of late.

 

[sd0733]

That single service being the only 2 carriage formation to run between Shrewsbury and Cardiff, with everything else as 3/5-197 or 5-MK4 is very impressive indeed considering how much 2 car running there is on this busy stretch these days. Almost all of the 3 cars are Holyheads too, which seem generally less busy than the often packed Manchesters. TfW should be commended for that, regardless of the dramas they've had of late.

Once it's all up and running it will be a game changer with a much more consistent product.
It may not be seen yet at the coal face but there is a lot of work going on in the background to make sure everything can be run up fairly rapidly as soon as possible, the 5 car Mk4 set being released from Landore should be the next sign of progress.

 

[Kite159]

.

And then I seem to remember 20:30, as well as being the only even-houred train to go all the way down that won’t be booked 67, is planned for what will eventually be the only 2 carriage 197 formation to run on the Shrewsbury Cardiff corridor?

20:30 being a 2 coach unit... that will be cosy on Saturday nights when it forms the last direct train beyond Shrewsbury. Especially for Wilmslow & Crewe passengers as Avanti have stopped running via Crewe at that time of night leaving only an hourly stopper.

 

[Topological]

.

20:30 being a 2 coach unit... that will be cosy on Saturday nights when it forms the last direct train beyond Shrewsbury. Especially for Wilmslow & Crewe passengers as Avanti have stopped running via Crewe at that time of night leaving only an hourly stopper.

Perhaps that needs to be made pick up only at Stockport and Wilmslow then.

However, that is all well off topic for the talk of 67s and MK4.

It has been encouraging seeing the 67s running around while out and about of late, though there still feels to be a lot of stock on Landore.

 

[Rhydgaled]

That single service being the only 2 carriage formation to run between Shrewsbury and Cardiff, with everything else as 3/5-197 or 5-MK4 is very impressive indeed considering how much 2 car running there is on this busy stretch these days. Almost all of the 3 cars are Holyheads too, which seem generally less busy than the often packed Manchesters. TfW should be commended for that, regardless of the dramas they've had of late.

Once it's all up and running it will be a game changer with a much more consistent product.

A more consistent product? I guess it depends on when you are comparing it with - if you go back to Arriva Trains Wales' standard pattern timetable the Manchester to Milford Haven / Carmarthen was pretty solidly an hourly service formed of class 175s (never in mutiple, so a mix of 2-car and 3-car). ATW's offering was very inadequate in terms of capacity between Manchester and Swansea, but it was pretty consistent. On the other hand, it wouldn't be difficult to be more-consistent than the current offer from TfW (with some 175s I assume being still grounded following the fires, leading to a stark contrast of 2-car 150s on some services and the mark 4 sets on other workings). 5-cars on nearly every TfW service between Manchester and Swansea will be a very welcome improvement in terms of capacity, but a mix of 197s and mark 4s will still be less consistent than ATW's wall-to-wall 175s Mondays to Saturdays (although on Saturdays the monotony of 175s to Milford Haven was relieved slightly by a single SO 158 diagram).

Saturdays should have 06:27, 10:30, 12:30, 14:30 and 18:30 from timetable change with the 08:30 and 16:30 added 2 weeks later. 20:15 and 22:15 arrival also Mk4s which return ecs

How many sets in service is that (both for the start of the new timetable and for the increased workings 2 weeks later)?

I came across some .xlsx files listing TfW diagrams in my Downloads folder last night which I don't remember downloading but I think they must have been released under the Freedom Of Information laws. This suggests five diagrams (diagram numbers 902 to 906) for mark 4 sets on Saturdays. These are supposedly LTP diagrams for Saturdays 27th May 2023 to 9th September 2023 (I've removed the shorter ECS workings - such as Canton to Cardiff Central - for clarity). Does this tie up with the current plans or are the files I have out of date?

Diagram 902
04:35 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 08:11
08:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 11:49
14:53 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 18:11
18:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 21:52

Diagram 903
04:13 Canton TMD to Swansea 05:10 ECS
05:30 Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly 10:11
10:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 13:48
16:50 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 20:11
20:25 Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe CS 21:09 ECS

Diagram 904
04:54 Crewe to Cardiff Central 07:51
10:52 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 14:11
14:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 17:53

Diagram 905
05:19 Crewe CS to Manchester Piccadilly 06:19 ECS
06:27 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 09:54
12:52 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 16:11
16:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Swansea 20:54
21:28 Swansea to Canton TMD 22:59 ECS

Diagram 906
08:49 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 12:11
12:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff Central 15:35
18:55 Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly 22:18
22:36 Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe CS 23:22 ECS