Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[sd0733]

Its a shame the MK4's cannot work through to Swansea every 3 hours. The other Manchester services (2 per 3 hours) could all start and terminate in Carmarthen/Milford . With the GWR and Swanline due to extend to Pembroke Dock there is already plenty of direct services between West Wales and Cardiff to mitigate the loss of 1 direct train every 3 hours terminating in Swansea.

A 3 hourly Mk4 service would just effectively make it into a random, pretty pointless offering really. Every other hour works in a way that people know when it runs, adding an extra hours gap just waters it down too much.

The Cardiff to Manchester section is the 'core' of the route and whilst splitting long running is always going to have some losers, the vast majority on the busiest have benefited from the Mk4 introduction and there are lots of 'normal' passengers who actively plan their journeys around them for the much better comfort and capacity. I've seen figures and overall satisfaction from surveys on the Mk4 sets is far far higher than 197 services in every possible area.

It's not as if West Wales-Manchester has been made suddenly impossible, there are still direct services every other hour. Whilst it understandably grates if it directly affects you, the extra capacity of the Mk4s is being kept where it's most needed and that is between Cardiff and Manchester. There's a huge turnover of passengers at Cardiff, I'd be suprised from experience if more than 5% of passengers, even on the direct services are heading from north of Shrewsbury especially to the likes of Swansea, Carmarthen or further west.

I believe the contract with DB for the 67s is being extended through to 2032, by which time the whole lot will need replacing anyway, with the coaches getting on for 45 years old.

 

[Lurcheroo]

@craigybagel and @sd0733 very well put as always.

I believe the contract with DB for the 67s is being extended through to 2032, by which time the whole lot will need replacing anyway, with the coaches getting on for 45 years old.

Oh that’s interesting to know!
I can imagine DB are keen to keep TFW onboard as there wouldn’t be much work for them otherwise.

 

[sd0733]

Oh that’s interesting to know!
I can imagine DB are keen to keep TFW onboard as there wouldn’t be kick work for them orherwise.

With the purchasing of 2 and the additional lease of 1 it did seem a strange decision if the plan was to dispense with them in a couple of years, makes more sense if it's a longer period.
Like you say DB aren't exactly fighting off offers for them either so imagine that plays a part when negotiating any extensions.

 

[Jez]

A 3 hourly Mk4 service would just effectively make it into a random, pretty pointless offering really. Every other hour works in a way that people know when it runs, adding an extra hours gap just waters it down too much.

The service offered every other hour is very different though. Does this not confuse passengers anyway ? One hour there is a 5 carriage intercity style service with first class and buffet counter then the other hour a 2 or 3 car DMU.

Back in the day the service was consistently booked for a 175 with nearly every service running through to and from West Wales.

It would be interesting to see just how many people travelling from the Marches end up going to stations West of Cardiff.

 

[Topological]

The service offered every other hour is very different though. Does this not confuse passengers anyway ? One hour there is a 5 carriage intercity style service with first class and buffet counter then the other hour a 2 or 3 car DMU.

Back in the day the service was consistently booked for a 175 with nearly every service running through to and from West Wales.

It would be interesting to see just how many people travelling from the Marches end up going to stations West of Cardiff.

Controlling for the fact that the number will have reduced since the direct services stopped (and indeed since the 150 fiasco).

Probably the best test would be the pre-covid numbers, and then look at the percentages for the pairs still served by direct trains to work out the multiplier to apply to pre-covid numbers.

The 197s will be 5 car so the asymmetry will not be too great (I keep telling myself that this is going to happen before I no longer use the Marches).

 

[craigybagel]

A 3 hourly Mk4 service would just effectively make it into a random, pretty pointless offering really. Every other hour works in a way that people know when it runs, adding an extra hours gap just waters it down too much.

And of course the 2 hourly service fits nicely into what appears to be the long term timetable plan for Manchester - with the MKIVs mostly running Crewe - Shrewsbury - Ludlow, and the 197s serving more intermediate stops. This suits both fleets better, and also gives a good compromise for the different service needs on the route.

Back in the day the service was consistently booked for a 175 with nearly every service running through to and from West Wales.

It would be interesting to see just how many people travelling from the Marches end up going to stations West of Cardiff.

Controlling for the fact that the number will have reduced since the direct services stopped (and indeed since the 150 fiasco).

Probably the best test would be the pre-covid numbers, and then look at the percentages for the pairs still served by direct trains to work out the multiplier to apply to pre-covid numbers.

There's at least two posters on this thread with years of experience of working these services, both pre and post COVID, who've been adamant all along that based on their experience, the through market beyond Cardiff has always been pretty limited.

 

[sd0733]

The service offered every other hour is very different though. Does this not confuse passengers anyway ? One hour there is a 5 carriage intercity style service with first class and buffet counter then the other hour a 2 or 3 car DMU.

The majority seem to understand it to be honest, in sure it does confuse some but it's seems easier to grasp than anything less frequent.

 

[Topological]

And of course the 2 hourly service fits nicely into what appears to be the long term timetable plan for Manchester - with the MKIVs mostly running Crewe - Shrewsbury - Ludlow, and the 197s serving more intermediate stops. This suits both fleets better, and also gives a good compromise for the different service needs on the route.



There's at least two posters on this thread with years of experience of working these services, both pre and post COVID, who've been adamant all along that based on their experience, the through market beyond Cardiff has always been pretty limited.

I do not doubt that someone who works the services knows more than someone who travels on them. I only did 1 or 2 trips each way per week so would not really know. But certainly the numbers were much higher than might be taken from your posts. It may be the ones I took were special cases because of the times.

These days I drive part way to avoid the Cardiff mess. So that is one less making their way across Cardiff.

I would agree though, the 2 hourly Mk4 is the easiest to understand schedule you can get from the fleet.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm not sure I follow the toilet argument - given that 156s have operated much the same routes for decades with 1 toilet to 2 vehicles, I'd say it's a reasonable provision. Interior spec is always going to be subjective; I personally find the 197s on a par to the 175s internally.

One toilet for a two car with a range of 1600 miles is not really enough. The sewage tank usually fills up before the fuel runs out. I am guessing the 156s dumped on the track way back in the 1980s so it wasn't a problem.

 

[MP393]

HD02 has met its match again with dragging brakes reported on 1V46 and has terminated at Shrewsbury. Oh the problem child of the fleet continues..

 

[Caaardiff]

It would be interesting to see just how many people travelling from the Marches end up going to stations West of Cardiff.

What you also need to consider is there is probably a much bigger market for people going Cardiff - West Wales. Those people would then need to change at Swansea if they were heading further West. More annoying for people on a shorter journey from say Cardiff - Carmarthen that are more commuters, and they won't be bothered by being on a comfy quiet Mk4 with First class to Swansea.

 

[Topological]

What you also need to consider is there is probably a much bigger market for people going Cardiff - West Wales. Those people would then need to change at Swansea if they were heading further West. More annoying for people on a shorter journey from say Cardiff - Carmarthen that are more commuters, and they won't be bothered by being on a comfy quiet Mk4 with First class to Swansea.

Which is probably why electrifying to Swansea will not happen for a long time.

 

[Jez]

What you also need to consider is there is probably a much bigger market for people going Cardiff - West Wales. Those people would then need to change at Swansea if they were heading further West. More annoying for people on a shorter journey from say Cardiff - Carmarthen that are more commuters, and they won't be bothered by being on a comfy quiet Mk4 with First class to Swansea.

It would only be 1 train per 3 hours that wouldnt run direct from Cardiff to Carmarthen and with more GWR services and the new Swanline-Pembroke Dock from December it wouldnt be too much of an issue for direct Cardiff-Carmarthen. But more MK4's to Swansea wont be happening anyway.

HD02 has met its match again with dragging brakes reported on 1V46 and has terminated at Shrewsbury. Oh the problem child of the fleet continues..

One diagram also seems to be covered by a 197 also today - the diagram that includes 1630 from Manchester-Swansea.

 

[MP393]

One diagram also seems to be covered by a 197 also today - the diagram that includes 1630 from Manchester-Swansea.

There was a pair of 153s on the 06:35 from Cardiff & 10:30 back. Much worse!

 

[Lurcheroo]

One toilet for a two car with a range of 1600 miles is not really enough. The sewage tank usually fills up before the fuel runs out. I am guessing the 156s dumped on the track way back in the 1980s so it wasn't a problem.

Well the 197’s supposedly have bigger waste and fresh water tanks than the likes of 158’s.
To add to this, TFW are also installing tanking points at locations such as Shrewsbury and Pwllheli (stabling points but not depots) so that almost every unit can be emptied each night.

What you also need to consider is there is probably a much bigger market for people going Cardiff - West Wales. Those people would then need to change at Swansea if they were heading further West.

That’s a point I’ve not really seen raised and it’s actually a very very good point!

 

[Richard Scott]

There was a pair of 153s on the 06:35 from Cardiff & 10:30 back. Much worse!

I disagree, much better!!

 

[Topological]

I disagree, much better!!

The 153s are better than 150s, granted.

However, a unit that is limited to 75mph can never be better on a timetable that needs at least 90mph and has stretches of above 100mph running (someone may have to confirm what the 197s can do between Crewe and Wilmslow).

Since this is a Mk4 diagram in the long (long-long) term plan the 153 is not better.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The 153s are better than 150s, granted.

However, a unit that is limited to 75mph can never be better on a timetable that needs at least 90mph and has stretches of above 100mph running (someone may have to confirm what the 197s can do between Crewe and Wilmslow).

Since this is a Mk4 diagram in the long (long-long) term plan the 153 is not better.

There’s definitely stretches between Crewe and Manchester where the MK4’s can do 110mph so the 197’s will be doing 100mph there

 

[BillStampy]

I disagree, much better!!

If the unit could do the speed I'd argue it's better as the seating on the sprinters are pretty good for what they are, of course not as quiet as a 197's engine and more but still.

Unfortunate drop in reliability, 67022 with HD06 dropping out of the Manchester to Swansea diagram, but is working to get a set to Crewe, should form the Crewe diagram tomorrow (I believe)
67014 and HD01 is working South towards Cardiff to work the Cardiff diagram tomorrow too, HD05 is still at Holyhead and should be in service on Monday, abiding to any exams.
HD02 I believe is working back to Crewe to repair the dragging brake, certainly ran out of luck now!
Unsure what the other set is, since I believe a set is hiding at Canton, from what I saw aboard a 150. But it certainly didn't run today.

Since I'm not caught up on exam timings, some could be wrong, so if it is please correct me, but this is to my knowledge.

 

[sd0733]

Unfortunate drop in reliability, 67022 with HD06 dropping out of the Manchester to Swansea diagram, but is working to get a set to Crewe, should form the Crewe diagram tomorrow (I believe)
67014 and HD01 is working South towards Cardiff to work the Cardiff diagram tomorrow too, HD05 is still at Holyhead and should be in service on Monday, abiding to any exams.
HD02 I believe is working back to Crewe to repair the dragging brake, certainly ran out of luck now!
Unsure what the other set is, since I believe a set is hiding at Canton, from what I saw aboard a 150. But it certainly didn't run today.

Since I'm not caught up on exam timings, some could be wrong, so if it is please correct me, but this is to my knowledge.

The last couple of days have been really poor, a shame as up until yesterday 100% of planned diagrams had been covered this month.

It's likely to be HD01 and HD03 tomorrow., should have been 02 on the Crewe diagram with 03 as a spare but seems quite optimistic having 02 out by the morning.

06 and failed 07 were both due loco exams at Canton and Crewe respectively tomorrow so having 06 finish at Crewe tonight effectively swaps these over.

 

[BillStampy]

The last couple of days have been really poor, a shame as up until yesterday 100% of planned diagrams had been covered this month.

It's likely to be HD01 and HD03 tomorrow., should have been 02 on the Crewe diagram with 03 as a spare but seems quite optimistic having 02 out by the morning.

06 and failed 07 were both due loco exams at Canton and Crewe respectively tomorrow so having 06 finish at Crewe tonight effectively swaps these over.

Getting 03 back off of it's exam I see. I wouldn't have 02 run it after it's last few days of failing, possibly take a look into it tomorrow. Will 06 and 07 be ready for potential usage on Monday? If so we have almost every set able to run, meaning plenty of back up.

 

[sd0733]

Getting 03 back off of it's exam I see. I wouldn't have 02 run it after it's last few days of failing, possibly take a look into it tomorrow. Will 06 and 07 be ready for potential usage on Monday? If so we have almost every set able to run, meaning plenty of back up.

Yes 03 is planned off its exam
02s issue at Holyhead was down to the locos batteries, the loco has been swapped. Either way it looks like it is planned to go back out tomorrow it's allocated already.
06 will be available but 07 was planned to be stopped next week in Crewe but as it stands it's on Canton with a faulty parking brake.

 

[BillStampy]

02s issue at Holyhead was down to the locos batteries, the loco has been swapped. Either way it looks like it is planned to go back out tomorrow it's allocated already.

Showing as 67012 and HD03 tomorrow on RTT

 

[sd0733]

Showing as 67012 and HD03 tomorrow on RTT

It was showing as 67020+HD02 before internally but has now swapped to 03, a wise choice!

 

[Jez]

The 153s are better than 150s, granted.

However, a unit that is limited to 75mph can never be better on a timetable that needs at least 90mph and has stretches of above 100mph running (someone may have to confirm what the 197s can do between Crewe and Wilmslow).

Since this is a Mk4 diagram in the long (long-long) term plan the 153 is not better.

On a Saturday that one is actually booked a MK4.

But agreed a 153 pair is better than a 150.

There’s definitely stretches between Crewe and Manchester where the MK4’s can do 110mph so the 197’s will be doing 100mph there

Are the MK4's actually allowed to get to 110 mph?

The 197s acceleration is actually amazing and they often arrive at stations early with time to spare. Often I find the MK4s lose time even when calling at less stations generally than the 197s.

 

[Topological]

On a Saturday that one is actually booked a MK4.

But agreed a 153 pair is better than a 150.


Are the MK4's actually allowed to get to 110 mph?

The 197s acceleration is actually amazing and they often arrive at stations early with time to spare. Often I find the MK4s lose time even when calling at less stations generally than the 197s.

RTT has the Mk4 pathed as 110mph: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L40430/2024-08-24/detailed

The 197s just do better on the service though. Faster acceleration and shorter dwells.

 

[craigybagel]

Are the MK4's actually allowed to get to 110 mph?

The 197s acceleration is actually amazing and they often arrive at stations early with time to spare. Often I find the MK4s lose time even when calling at less stations generally than the 197s.

RTT has the Mk4 pathed as 110mph: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L40430/2024-08-24/detailed

The 197s just do better on the service though. Faster acceleration and shorter dwells.

110mph is the limit. Individually both the locos and stock are designed for higher speeds, but in this particular formation together the limit is 110. It's a moot point as there is nowhere on the TfW network with a higher linespeed anyway.

The speed can only be achieved between Wilmslow and Crewe, but the journey time between the two is about the same for both 197 and 67/MKIV because as has been pointed out, the acceleration of the 197s is fantastic and in this particular situation it's enough to cancel out the higher top speed of the locos.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The 197s acceleration is actually amazing and they often arrive at stations early with time to spare.

You’re not wrong! As I believe @craigybagel has said before, with the timings till do old units a 3 car 197 will keep to them even on 2 engines!

It will be interesting to see what can be done on the Cambrian with them.
There’s a good number of places where you can’t even get to line speed with the 158’s due to the uphill gradient!
There’s also a bit of spare time built in (quite a lot on the coast actually)
A good example being after you leave Aber, there is a 65KPH restriction over Llanbadarn crossing and then you immediately start climbing Llanbadarn bank and the line speed goes up to 95KPH but you won’t really get above 70KPH untill you start to get to the top where it flattens out.

Despite this you can still get to Bow street 2 or 3 mins early so I do think the line will need re-timing.

The speed can only be achieved between Wilmslow and Crewe, but the journey time between the two is about the same for both 197 and 67/MKIV because as has been pointed out, the acceleration of the 197s is fantastic and in this particular situation it's enough to cancel out the higher top speed of the locos

I hear how good the braking is on the 197’s compared to the older DMU’s, Is the braking on them good compared to the 67’s ? If your slowing for a station stop, do you change your braking area much between the two stock types ?

 

[craigybagel]

You’re not wrong! As I believe @craigybagel has said before, with the timings till do old units a 3 car 197 will keep to them even on 2 engines!

It will be interesting to see what can be done on the Cambrian with them.
There’s a good number of places where you can’t even get to line speed with the 158’s due to the uphill gradient!
There’s also a bit of spare time built in (quite a lot on the coast actually)
A good example being after you leave Aber, there is a 65KPH restriction over Llanbadarn crossing and then you immediately start climbing Llanbadarn bank and the line speed goes up to 95KPH but you won’t really get above 70KPH untill you start to get to the top where it flattens out.

Despite this you can still get to Bow street 2 or 3 mins early so I do think the line will need re-timing.


I hear how good the braking is on the 197’s compared to the older DMU’s, Is the braking on them good compared to the 67’s ? If your slowing for a station stop, do you change your braking area much between the two stock types ?

The brakes on a 197 are phenomenal. Never known anything like it. Had a lot of fun on training runs leaving the braking for stations ridiculously late and didn't come close to missing anything.

67s - not so much. To be fair, the brakes themselves are pretty strong - there's a reason they're one of the few locos that don't have speed restrictions when running light engine - but it takes so much longer for them to apply, and they're much harder to control than on a unit. You have to apply the brakes earlier than you would in a 197 because of how much longer it takes to apply the brakes. It also takes longer for them to release, so fine tuning is pretty difficult. You're not going to go flying into stations, especially when so many of them require precision stopping to fit around SDO.

It's one of the reasons why they're much better suited to the Marches services that skip more stops - they take a long time to stop and even longer to get going again. But once they're on the move, they'll climb hills better than anything in the fleet, even 197s.

 

[Lurcheroo]

The brakes on a 197 are phenomenal. Never known anything like it. Had a lot of fun on training runs leaving the braking for stations ridiculously late and didn't come close to missing anything.

67s - not so much. To be fair, the brakes themselves are pretty strong - there's a reason they're one of the few locos that don't have speed restrictions when running light engine - but it takes so much longer for them to apply, and they're much harder to control than on a unit. You have to apply the brakes earlier than you would in a 197 because of how much longer it takes to apply the brakes. It also takes longer for them to release, so fine tuning is pretty difficult. You're not going to go flying into stations, especially when so many of them require precision stopping to fit around SDO.

It's one of the reasons why they're much better suited to the Marches services that skip more stops - they take a long time to stop and even longer to get going again. But once they're on the move, they'll climb hills better than anything in the fleet, even 197s.

Wow that’s pretty wild then! I had heard one of the Mach DI’s who did their training down in Cardiff say that they were told “this is where you’d go into emergency on a 150 to stop, but don’t brake yet” might have even said the same about the 175 but I can’t quite remember now!

I have heard it takes a bit of getting used to the brakes on them and they’re a bit more tricky than units!
I didn’t know that they didn’t have light loco speed restrictions though!

Surprising as I would have guessed 197’s beat them like that but I suppose once you’ve got all that mass going, there’s a lot of power available to keep it going !