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Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

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Lurcheroo

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It seems to me that we can’t recommend to those we know that they should try out these Mk4 trains for fear that they end up on 2 coach 153’s - as raveon has today. Things are still unreliable with the 197’s with many services on The Marches operating as 2 coaches.

Yesterday I saw a 2 coach 150 arrive at CDF from Milford Haven - rammed with people standing.
Ahh yes, in august, if you had recommended them to do so, then there was a 95% chance they would get a MK4.
And a 0.96% chance they got a 2 car 153.
nothing on the railway is 100% guaranteed but these aren’t terrible odds.

A lot of work has been and continues to be put into improving their reliability.

If TFW could get an 8th set running , would it make sense to have a set booked ‘spare’ at Canton and Crewe each day just incase instead of having an extra diagram? Or would that be a poor use of resources. Personally I think the extra diagram would be of much more use 95+% of the time.
 
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Rhydgaled

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The issue with West Wales is that the trains continue to Carmarthen or beyond. Very few terminate at Swansea. Therefore the situation is a little more complex.
Aren't there going to be more services terminating at Swansea from December with TfW planning to withdraw some trips between Carmarthen and Swansea. GWR are now running far more services through to Carmarthen than they did prior to IEP and Grand Union's open-access application, and I thought TfW were cutting their duplicated services?

Can they not fuel the mark 4s in Crewe?
If you’re thinking, fuel them on a short layover mid service, then no.
When they’re on depot overnight then almost certainly already do get fuelled there.
I was thinking refuel overnight in Crewe; certainly NOT during the day in service! I was responding to Topological's suggestion that Holyhead-Cardiff would be a better choice than Manchester-Cardiff (on the basis that they can refuel at Holyhead). I thought 'but surely they refuel at Crewe anyway on the Manchesters', as has now been confirmed by the replies.

At the time this project was put together, there were no other passenger locomotives available. The ex TPE 68s might be an option now, but it would appear the plan is to stick with the 67s - which to be fair after a lot of hard work by TfW and DBC are performing much better than at the start. My suspicion is they'll try and hold out long enough for a bi-mode loco to be designed that's powerful enough on diesel to cope with the Marches. We're not there yet, but as designs progress we're getting closer.
By the time there is a suitable bi-mode locomotive design, the mark 4s will presumably be (sadly) due for replacement anyway. Personally I would look to cascade a good proportion of the 197s away at the same time and replace both them and the mark 4s with some form of new bi-mode, which given the replacement of units at the same time would probably be more-likely to be a bi-mode unit rather than loco and coaches.

Forgive me if this is stupid question, if the mk4s operated with a class 67 each end instead of 1 and 1 driving trailer, would it be possible to use only 1 ends engine until fuel is low then switch to the other ends engine? Doubling their range? Is that a doable thing or? Or would both ends engines have to be running if there is a loco on both ends?
Is there a handbrake in the mark 4 TSO(E) coaches? If not, you might still need the DVT even if you had a loco on each end, just in case the set was left with no loco attached.

A 3 hourly Mk4 service would just effectively make it into a random, pretty pointless offering really. Every other hour works in a way that people know when it runs, adding an extra hours gap just waters it down too much.

The Cardiff to Manchester section is the 'core' of the route and whilst splitting long running is always going to have some losers, the vast majority on the busiest have benefited from the Mk4 introduction and there are lots of 'normal' passengers who actively plan their journeys around them for the much better comfort and capacity. I've seen figures and overall satisfaction from surveys on the Mk4 sets is far far higher than 197 services in every possible area.
Exactly; the mark 4s are a much better product for long-distance travel, so it would be nice if that product could be offered on the full route (which, in this context, in my view is Manchester-Swansea). Admittedly a train every three hours isn't very helpful for planning a trip around, but neither is every two hours really (the latter is more-memorable, since you have the even-hour/odd-hour distinction). Sadly it can't be done, but think what could have been acheived with an hourly Swansea-Manchester service formed of mark 4 stock.

the through market beyond Cardiff has always been pretty limited.
That surprises me, assuming you are talking about traffic from the Marches and not S.W. Wales traffic. South East Wales is a relatively densely populated area, all the way from Swansea to the Severn Tunnel, although Cardiff is obviously the biggest 'hub'. There's still quite a few people to serve in Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and Swansea. Of course the further west you go the more you also have to go north so that, by the time you get to Carmarthen, travelling to Manchester via Cardiff means going in the wrong direction for the best part of an hour, if not more. This will surely push an even greater share of potential passengers to chose to drive, and from a lower base (population of Carmarthen much less than Swansea); so I would certainly expect negligible through traffic between stations west of Swansea/Llanelli and those north of Newport. I would however, if you had a hypothetical train pick-up only from Manchester until Newport and then set down only to Swansea, expect a gradual decline in the number of passengers after Cardiff, Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and arriving into Swansea, rather than the steep drop-off that your 'pretty limited' would suggest.

In other words, my gut feeling has always been that Swansea-Manchester is worth trying to provide an offering to compete with car, Carmarthen-Manchester is not (try Bristol instead perhaps - Carmarthen-Cardiff is certainly an important service, or was pre-COVID at least).

What you also need to consider is there is probably a much bigger market for people going Cardiff - West Wales. Those people would then need to change at Swansea if they were heading further West. More annoying for people on a shorter journey from say Cardiff - Carmarthen that are more commuters, and they won't be bothered by being on a comfy quiet Mk4 with First class to Swansea.
As noted above, Carmarthen (and other stations west of Swansea) to Cardiff is indeed an important market (and far more important than through travel between stations west of Swansea and the Marches). However, is that more important than serving a big city (Swansea) with more than just an InterCity to London and local services?

One toilet for a two car with a range of 1600 miles is not really enough. The sewage tank usually fills up before the fuel runs out. I am guessing the 156s dumped on the track way back in the 1980s so it wasn't a problem.
That's a good point about the class 156s; the toilets were much simpler in design and didn't have a waste tank. They were also supplemented by the 158s which, I believe, still dumped on the track but had two toilets (maybe even four in a 3-car unit?). So, if anything, we should be seeing more toilets on new trains when in actual fact only the longest-distance InterCity stock is even meeting the 'best practice' for more-general inter-urban service and 'inter-urban' stock is being built to 'suburban' spec with fewer toilets.

Well the 197’s supposedly have bigger waste and fresh water tanks than the likes of 158’s.
Isn't that more that the 158s have particularly small waste tanks (due to them having to be retro-fitted and it being difficult to find space) rather than 197s having particularly big tanks?

TFW are also installing tanking points at locations such as Shrewsbury and Pwllheli (stabling points but not depots) so that almost every unit can be emptied each night.
I agree, the extra tanking facilities will be a big help. I think Carmarthen is getting them as well.
Good news; should have been done anyway when the 158s etc. had waste tanks installed. I hope Carmarthen does get that facility, it's quite an important stabling point for TfW (am I right in saying that TfW have no crews or units based at Swansea, just catering trolley staff (or not even that))?
 

Lurcheroo

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Isn't that more that the 158s have particularly small waste tanks (due to them having to be retro-fitted and it being difficult to find space) rather than 197s having particularly big tanks?
I’m not 100% sure but certainly seems very plausible as they’re tucked into the end of each coach.

am I right in saying that TfW have no crews or units based at Swansea, just catering trolley staff
Certainly no train crew based at Swansea. Not sure on catering.

In other words, my gut feeling has always been that Swansea-Manchester is worth trying to provide an offering to compete with car, Carmarthen-Manchester is not (try Bristol instead perhaps - Carmarthen-Cardiff is certainly an important service, or was pre-COVID at least).
I wonder if there is enough demand that West wales - Bristol using 197’s makes sense.
Then run an hourly Manchester - Swansea using MK4’s.
 

Harpo

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I wonder if there is enough demand that West wales - Bristol using 197’s makes sense.
It’s 3 years since Peter Hendy’s union connectivity review identified the need for higher quality rolling stock on South Wales to Birmingham and 197s maybe fit the bill?

A W Wales service would give Carmarthenshire both London and Birmingham services.

A TOC that can operate the Birmingham’s reliably would be a big improvement too.

But that’s all drifting off into ‘speculation’ territory.

 

Jay247uk

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08:32 from Crewe to Manchester was late off the depot assuming a fault with the train. Train was loaded for the return at Piccadilly to Swansea but looking at RTT seems to have been cancelled and is moving ECS back to Crewe.
 

Jez

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Aren't there going to be more services terminating at Swansea from December with TfW planning to withdraw some trips between Carmarthen and Swansea
No. There are 4 journeys (two in each direction) between Carmarthen and Cardiff that will no long run on weekdays from December. Infact less journeys will terminate in Swansea with the Pembroke Docks and Swanline's being merged.

08:32 from Crewe to Manchester was late off the depot assuming a fault with the train. Train was loaded for the return at Piccadilly to Swansea but looking at RTT seems to have been cancelled and is moving ECS back to Crewe.
Looks like its being restarted at Crewe with a 3 car 197!

Ahh yes, in august, if you had recommended them to do so, then there was a 95% chance they would get a MK4.
And a 0.96% chance they got a 2 car 153.
nothing on the railway is 100% guaranteed but these aren’t terrible odds.
Yes indeed not terrible odds but still annoying if one turns up on your train! Its been much improved in recent months however I agree.

I see today there is a combination of 153s on a Manchester to South Wales on the 1330 (although this one isnt replacing a MK4). A bit like old times as this one was always booked for Sprinters until recently.
 
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Newp410

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It’s 3 years since Peter Hendy’s union connectivity review identified the need for higher quality rolling stock on South Wales to Birmingham and 197s maybe fit the bill?

A W Wales service would give Carmarthenshire both London and Birmingham services.

A TOC that can operate the Birmingham’s reliably would be a big improvement too.

But that’s all drifting off into ‘speculation’ territory.

Union connectivity will start in December, and then enhanced from December 2025.
 

Thomas6187

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08:32 from Crewe to Manchester was late off the depot assuming a fault with the train. Train was loaded for the return at Piccadilly to Swansea but looking at RTT seems to have been cancelled and is moving ECS back to Crewe.
Got rescued by 57304 about 1230
 

BillStampy

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Will HD07 be ready for service tomorrow to take over any diagrams? One seems to be covered by 197111 on the Crewe starter.
 

sd0733

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Will HD07 be ready for service tomorrow to take over any diagrams? One seems to be covered by 197111 on the Crewe starter.
Unlikely, showing as repairs at Canton.

Things are poor enough that only 1 set can now finish at Crewe until something is released, 3 stopped sets at Crewe with HD01 on repairs after it's failure, HD02 now on minor exam and HD04 on major exam so only HD03/05/06 are currently serviceable.
HD07 still has parking brake issues but Is also in need of a visit to the wheel lathe when it's finally released.
A rather bleak outlook for the next couple of days unfortunately.
 

BillStampy

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Unlikely, showing as repairs at Canton.

Things are poor enough that only 1 set can now finish at Crewe until something is released, 3 stopped sets at Crewe with HD01 on repairs after it's failure, HD02 now on minor exam and HD04 on major exam so only HD03/05/06 are currently serviceable.
HD07 still has parking brake issues but Is also in need of a visit to the wheel lathe when it's finally released.
A rather bleak outlook for the next couple of days unfortunately.
Ah that sucks. I'm planning on jumping back and forward between Newport and Cardiff tomorrow to see a scrap movement. Was hoping to take the Mark 4s a bit.. Hopefully still able to take two.

I'm assuming it's HD03 Crewe start, 05 Holyhead and 06 Canton. Meaning I'd be taking 03 and 06 tomorrow. Love a bit of variety!
 

sd0733

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Ah that sucks. I'm planning on jumping back and forward between Newport and Cardiff tomorrow to see a scrap movement. Was hoping to take the Mark 4s a bit.. Hopefully still able to take two.

I'm assuming it's HD03 Crewe start, 05 Holyhead and 06 Canton. Meaning I'd be taking 03 and 06 tomorrow. Love a bit of variety!
Yes those are where they're currently starting tomorrow.
 

BillStampy

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Now HD03 has kicked the bucket at Hereford! HD06 is doing something too! Only trouble free set so far today is 05!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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so we have a premium service train delaying something en route to a scrap yard! How ironic.
No, I think the scrap working had been looped for an hour at Panteg before Gerald arrived.
HD05 is now working 1W57 Cardiff-Manchester, but running late.
 

MP393

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For some reason the set has been sent off to Crewe, whilst the depot is full..?

That has caused quite a few issues at Crewe now as there was no room for 5V33 to go, with trains stuck behind it for over an hour.

HD06 & 67022 has come back out for 1T55 (restart of 1W55) 11:30 Crewe to Manchester.
 

sd0733

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No, I think the scrap working had been looped for an hour at Panteg before Gerald arrived.
HD05 is now working 1W57 Cardiff-Manchester, but running late.
That's the diagram to do 1w57. That sets got nothing wrong lost time due to picking up the stops off the Manchester.

Both HD03 and HD06 have had faulty windscreen wipers.
 

cambsy

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will 17.14 Cardiff-Holyhead, Tues 4th Sept (tomorrow), likely still be a mk4 set or is it very much up in the air with so many mk4 sets out of service? Im booked 1st class return on this tomorrow and 05.30 Holyhead-Cardiff backl on Wednesday.
 

sd0733

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1W57 has been at Sutton Bridge Junction since 1304. Not sure why.
Near miss with a trespasser by another service caused mass of congestion around Shrewsbury. For once at the moment, that one isn't set related.

Today has seen 67012 head from Crewe ATC to ETD for traction motor repairs and 67017 head the other way back to the TfW fleet.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Near miss with a trespasser by another service caused mass of congestion around Shrewsbury. For once at the moment, that one isn't set related.
Today has seen 67012 head from Crewe ATC to ETD for traction motor repairs and 67017 head the other way back to the TfW fleet.
Looks like 1W57 has been turned at Wilmslow, 60 down.
 

sd0733

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will 17.14 Cardiff-Holyhead, Tues 4th Sept (tomorrow), likely still be a mk4 set or is it very much up in the air with so many mk4 sets out of service? Im booked 1st class return on this tomorrow and 05.30 Holyhead-Cardiff back
HD03 is planned back in service this evening to end in Canton which Is then due to cover the evening Holyhead diagram tomorrow.

Tomorrow should be a bit more back to normal, hopefully not jinxing it! The 04:54 from Crewe and 18:55 from Cardiff are planned units though. Recently stopped HD07 should work the 08:49 and the remainder of that diagram HD06 will stop at Canton after 1V46 to avoid Crewe ending with 5 sets. HD02 should then be released from exam on Wednesday to replace it.

Current status is:
67015+HD01 awaiting investigation/repair at Crewe
67020+HD02 minor exam at Crewe expected back in service Wednesday
67025+HD03 In service
67017+HD04 Heavy exam at Crewe
67008+HD05 In service
67022+HD06 In service
67010+HD07 Repairs at Canton expected back tomorrow

67012- Traction motor repairs at Crewe ETD
67013- Exam at Crewe ETD
67014- Canton recovery loco
67016- Repairs/Repaint at Toton
67029- Awaiting finish/test run at Crewe ETD following bogie overhaul
 
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