Exact Fare Only Buses

[Teflon Lettuce]

Supermarkets always have alternatives (baskets for example) and theres usually alternative parking methods. How many exact fare only shops are there, especially ones that are exact fare and only tell you the price when you get to the till?

and on the sort of bus journey we are talking about here... short city/ town journeys...there are alternative methods... walk, cycle, taxi...

at the end of the day it's the same principle. in this thread people are talking about exact fares as though the bus industry is the only one that ever expects it's customers to have the exact correct money. It isn't! As I said in my above post you need exact money to use a trolley, for council car parks.. can add to that vending machines, toilet access where you have to pay to get in and I'm sure many other examples I can't think of right now. Of course, when using these facilities people have a reasonable expectation that they will need lots of coinage so come prepared. However, in my experience as a bus driver, people come to the bus stop with the unreasonable expectation of being able to use the bus as some sort of personal change giving service.

I used to work a long distance route where the single fare for students was {admittedly stupid} £10.90. We had a significant number of students who used the service regularly {some weekly or even more often} who would always tender a £20 note!

Another example: a route I worked the fare was £1.50 every morning a passenger got on and tendered a £10 note {first journey of the morning} I used to give him his £8.50 change. because of the way the duty worked, we picked him up in the evening on the way home... and he always tendered another £10 note! after a few days of this happening I challenged him as to what was happening to all the change I was giving him... his answer? he was using it to pay for other things... including the fruit machine at work! needless to say he got a shock the next morning when I suddenly had no change to give him!

 

[BestWestern]

so you think it totally bizarre that your local supermarket insists you put a £1 coin into the trolley to be able to use it? another example of a "flat fare" and one where you are just as likely to have only just gone to the cash machine... or are you saying you never use a public car park... their machines are usually non-change giving and so therefore "exact fare only"

Supermarkets do that only to prevent people nicking the trollies, not because they still insist on operating a hugely inflexible policy from generations ago to save them a bit of work/make them a tidy sum in overpayments. Many users will know that it's a quid, or indeed will have one of those pound-shaped keyrings etc to allow them to fit the slot. Failing that, you can have a basket for nowt. Funny how the checkouts all give change isn't it? And car parks are usually equipped now to accept card payments, frequently via one of several national third party apps that people can load onto their smartphones.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Operators could easily tackle issues of people having the wrong fare by clearly displaying fares as part of the bus stop information.

Well apart from the fact you'll already be at the bus stop when you see that information!
So doesn't really help if you turn up a few mins before the bus is due at a bus stop that doesn't have a nearby shop to get some change from!

 

[BestWestern]

However, in my experience as a bus driver, people come to the bus stop with the unreasonable expectation of being able to use the bus as some sort of personal change giving service.

Another example: a route I worked the fare was £1.50 every morning a passenger got on and tendered a £10 note {first journey of the morning} I used to give him his £8.50 change. because of the way the duty worked, we picked him up in the evening on the way home... and he always tendered another £10 note! after a few days of this happening I challenged him as to what was happening to all the change I was giving him... his answer? he was using it to pay for other things... including the fruit machine at work! needless to say he got a shock the next morning when I suddenly had no change to give him!

The answer to those who take the mickey is simply not to carry them. "Sorry, I can't change that. This is a bus, not a bank...." is very effective, they'll only do it once.

In a climate where bus routes are dropping like flies, the concessionary fares debacle means a massive user group generate no worthwhile profits, large operators are struggling and small ones are dying, the industry desperately needs to sustain and increase ridership. This means making bus travel easy and attractive. The suggestion, particularly in that difficult context, that it's a good idea to expect intending passengers to walk around with pockets full of coins to make up various small amounts, or worse still to end up overpaying, frankly beggars belief! Buses need to be run for the convenience of passengers, not the convenience of operators. The vast majority manage quite happily to accept cash and give change, as one tends to expect with monetary transactions in our society. The small minority who insist on being awkward really need to consider issues beyond their admin functions and company traditions. They do themselves no favours in the long run.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Supermarkets do that only to prevent people nicking the trollies, not because they still insist on operating a hugely inflexible policy from generations ago to save them a bit of work/make them a tidy sum in overpayments. Many users will know that it's a quid, or indeed will have one of those pound-shaped keyrings etc to allow them to fit the slot. Failing that, you can have a basket for nowt. Funny how the checkouts all give change isn't it? And car parks are usually equipped now to accept card payments, frequently via one of several national third party apps that people can load onto their smartphones.

I think you're missing my point... the general tone of this thread is that buses are the only place where you are expected to tender exact money. I am just quoting examples that prove that supposition wrong. Certainly in my area neither of my local 2 councils offer payment by card in their car parks.

As to your assumption that exact fare policies are there purely to generate overpayment well, I'm sorry, that's a nonsense. Exact fares are there for numerous historical reasons. Some are there for driver safety.. no access to money means less threat of assault. Some are there because it was a way of overcoming union opposition to OMO convertion or to lower the premium paid to OMO drivers. And some were put in place to maintain the same fast boarding times when convertion took place.

And the reasons why the remaining exact fare systems still exist are just as varied.

yes exact fare can be very user unfriendly I admit that. I can remember trips to Harlow when I was a kid when LC used farebox atlanteans. The fare was 37p adult and 27p child... this was in the days before 20p and £1 coins... 2 adults and 2 children was £1.28 meaning a minimum of 7 coins!

To look at a current system Cardiff currently charge £1.90 for an adult which means a minimum of 4 coins... and that is where the real problem with exact fare shows itself... of course when the fares eventually have to go up it'll go up to £2 which will be reasonable seeing as though you will only need one coin.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Well apart from the fact you'll already be at the bus stop when you see that information!
So doesn't really help if you turn up a few mins before the bus is due at a bus stop that doesn't have a nearby shop to get some change from!

cardiff's buses all have the fares information displayed in the window by the door... so anyone that's going to catch a bus will have plenty of opportunities to see the fare before they get to the stop

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The answer to those who take the mickey is simply not to carry them. "Sorry, I can't change that. This is a bus, not a bank...." is very effective, they'll only do it once.

In a climate where bus routes are dropping like flies, the concessionary fares debacle means a massive user group generate no worthwhile profits, large operators are struggling and small ones are dying, the industry desperately needs to sustain and increase ridership. This means making bus travel easy and attractive. The suggestion, particularly in that difficult context, that it's a good idea to expect intending passengers to walk around with pockets full of loose change, frankly beggars belief! Buses need to be run for the convenience of passengers, not the convenience of operators. The vast majority manage quite happily to accept cash and give change, as one tends to expect with monetary transactions in our society. The small minority who insist on being awkward really need to consider issues beyond their admin system and company traditions.

well I currently work for a company that gives change in competition with a company that operates exact fare... strangely the bus users in our area don't seem to think it's an imposition to be expected to carry change in their pockets if they want a bus... else our company would be the ones running round full with the opposition running round empty surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exact fare is somewhat of an anachronism. It does effectively speed up operations where per-vehicle-journey cash single fares are the only sensible way of taking fares, and with a locked farebox means the driver is safer too. But in modern bus networks, that is about the least optimal method of taking fares going. Far better to get rid of cash on the bus entirely, as London has done.

As cash is falling rather out of fashion with millennials, we will reach the point where it will be commercially easier to give free travel to a slightly lower age than is legally required than to accept diminishing amounts of cash.

Cash:
- Is vulnerable to theft by drivers or by drivers being attacked by a member of the public;
- Renders drivers vulnerable to attack;
- Is slow to process compared with contactless cards, stored-value cards and season tickets operated on a touch-on, touch-off basis;
- Must be counted and taken to the bank, during which it is again vulnerable to being stolen, and the bank will charge hefty fees to a business for processing it, too.

Cards are none of those things. Cash needs to go.

 

[BestWestern]

As to your assumption that exact fare policies are there purely to generate overpayment well, I'm sorry, that's a nonsense. Exact fares are there for numerous historical reasons. Some are there for driver safety.. no access to money means less threat of assault. Some are there because it was a way of overcoming union opposition to OMO convertion or to lower the premium paid to OMO drivers. And some were put in place to maintain the same fast boarding times when convertion took place.

And the reasons why the remaining exact fare systems still exist are just as varied.

Yes exact fare can be very user unfriendly I admit that.

I didn't say it existed purely to generate overpayment. However, it is very obviously the case that it does exactly that. If there were a system in place for similar reasons of convenience, but which generated substantial degrees of underpayment, would these companies be so keen to retain it I wonder?

The point is simply that bus operators need to take modern, accessible approaches to their business in order to maximise their revenue and secure survival. Exact fare really doesn't fit with that.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Exact fare is somewhat of an anachronism. It does effectively speed up operations where per-vehicle-journey cash single fares are the only sensible way of taking fares, and with a locked farebox means the driver is safer too. But in modern bus networks, that is about the least optimal method of taking fares going. Far better to get rid of cash on the bus entirely, as London has done.

ah but that then causes another problem... for those visiting London it becomes prohibitively expensive to use the bus. I was there recently and only wanted to use the bus once. To get on the bus I would've had to have paid a deposit to get my oystercard and then pay a minimum top up onto the card BEFORE even getting anywhere near a bus. Needless to say I thought that was all a bit too much of a hassle {and too much expense} for one short journey... and instead headed underground!

radical thought... why not have contactless payment AND a cash vault... then NO-ONE can claim to be inconvenienced

 

[BestWestern]

ah but that then causes another problem... for those visiting London it becomes prohibitively expensive to use the bus. I was there recently and only wanted to use the bus once. To get on the bus I would've had to have paid a deposit to get my oystercard and then pay a minimum top up onto the card BEFORE even getting anywhere near a bus. Needless to say I thought that was all a bit too much of a hassle {and too much expense} for one short journey... and instead headed underground!

radical thought... why not have contactless payment AND a cash vault... then NO-ONE can claim to be inconvenienced

Does TfL not accept contactless on the buses? Regarding Oyster, how many tourists visiting London want to make one solitary bus journey any nothing else? No Tube, riverboat, DLR.... There really can't be very many. I think Oyster works well for those who can't or won't do contactless.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I didn't say it existed purely to generate overpayment. However, it is very obviously the case that it does exactly that. If there were a system in place for similar reasons of convenience, but which generated substantial degrees of underpayment, would these companies be so keen to retain it I wonder?

Sorry but you did

Supermarkets do that only to prevent people nicking the trollies, not because they still insist on operating a hugely inflexible policy from generations ago to save them a bit of work/make them a tidy sum in overpayments.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Does TfL not accept contactless on the buses? Regarding Oyster, how many tourists visiting London want to make one solitary bus journey any nothing else? No Tube, riverboat, DLR.... There really can't be very many. I think Oyster works well for those who can't or won't do contactless.

doesn't matter whether they accept contactless or not... I don't have a contactless card... so I'm inconvenienced by them NOT taking cash fares.

simple truth is that no matter what method of payment is used it becomes a problem for someone.

As to only making one journey... well I was crossing central London... arrived by coach leaving by train so needing a transfer... why did I want to use the bus? simply because I don't feel comfortable on the Tube... and I prefer to see the sights.

As I said in an earlier post, the local company that uses Exact fare doesn't appear to be too disadvantaged by their policy... certainly I've never seen anyone get off the bus purely because it doesn't give change... but then information is everything... their policy and fares are on their website... displayed at every bus stop... and on the side of every bus.... out of interest how many councils advertise their parking charges on the approaches to town? and yet at many of their car parks it is cash only and exact "fare" and also the problem that you have to try and work out how long you want to be there "before"....

now think about this... lets say the car park charges £1/hr for parking.. you're not sure how long you'll need... it might be 2 hrs but then again it might be 3... so you err on the side of caution and pay £3... you're quicker than you thought you'd be and get back to the car after 1hr 50mins...is that not an overpayment generated for the council? have you ever written to the council to complain about their "exact fare/ guess how long you need" policy and the way it robbed you of £1? no? I thought not... and at the end of the day it is the same principle!

 

[Typhoon]

How many exact fare only shops are there, especially ones that are exact fare and only tell you the price when you get to the till?

The original model for shops like Poundland were exactly that. Five items in the basket - cost £5, no surprise at the checkout.

Most 'Exact Fare' models use a limited number of fare types - NEx WMids (previously quoted) has two, one of which is rarely used. Provided you advertise the fare (by plastering it on the side of the bus or on bus stops, for instance), it should come as no surprise.

Once you start moving into interurban or rural routes with variable fares, 'Exact Fare' loses any sense of usefulness.

 

[BestWestern]

Sorry but you did

I didn't. Re-read what you've quoted.

"...to save them a bit of work"

That being the primary reason. The fact that their policy also nets them what is highly likely to be a substantial sum on top is of course a handy little perk.

 

[BestWestern]

simple truth is that no matter what method of payment is used it becomes a problem for someone.

The only someone that has any 'problem' with the usual acceptance of cash would appear to be those operators who can't be arsed to give out change! And that really isn't for the customer to concern themselves with. Both my local operators will accept contactless or cash, and yes they'll give you change if needed, in the traditional time-honoured fashion. Nobody has a 'problem', other than the operator doing the usual backoffice cash handling that the vast majority of retailers do. Not a massive issue for them really.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I didn't. Re-read what you've quoted.

"...to save them a bit of work"

That being the primary reason.

what you actually said was:

save them a bit of work/make them a tidy sum in overpayments.

nowhere did you say one reason was more of a priority than another!

 

[BestWestern]

what you actually said was:



nowhere did you say one reason was more of a priority than another!

Right.... but that's completely different from suggesting that it was "purely to generate overpayments", isn't it? Which is what you said.... Do you want a hand carrying those goalposts there?

Anyway, this is getting a bit daft! We can have opposing views, it's ok!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The only someone that has any 'problem' with the usual acceptance of cash would appear to be those operators who can't be arsed to give out change! And that really isn't for the customer to concern themselves with. Both my local operators will accept contactless or cash, and yes they'll give you change if needed, in the traditional time-honoured fashion. Nobody has a 'problem', other than the operator doing the usual backoffice cash handling that the vast majority of retailers do. Not a massive issue for them really.

oh dear are you determined to misquote and misinterpret everything I post?

I brought forward an argument against cashless supported by stored value card {London with Oyster} and you said I could pay by contactless.. which I countered by saying I don't have a contactless card... so therefore a cashless system will inconvenience me.

Exact fare farebox collection will inconvenience anyone who goes through life to ignorant to carry round a few coins in their pocket and expects change of a £20 note for a packet of polos {see posts above for other examples where you will need exact money}

cash taking and change giving inconveniences all passengers by the slowing down of the service!

hence my response that any fare collection method will inconvenience someone.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Right.... but that's completely different from suggesting that it was "purely to generate overpayments", isn't it? Which is what you said.... Do you want a hand carrying those goalposts there?

Anyway, this is getting a bit daft! We can have opposing views, it's ok!

yes we can have opposing views, just don't selectively quote to support your views because I will always challenge that

 

[Bletchleyite]

radical thought... why not have contactless payment AND a cash vault... then NO-ONE can claim to be inconvenienced

That is an option and ticks *most* of the boxes but is costlier for the operator. Cash is really expensive to handle, so if you can eliminate it there's money to spend on other things.

 

[Ianno87]

I used to work a long distance route where the single fare for students was {admittedly stupid} £10.90. We had a significant number of students who used the service regularly {some weekly or even more often} who would always tender a £20 note!

Back in my University of Warwick days, Travel Coventry (Now NatEx Coventry) ran the 12 serving the campus. The number of fellow students boarding on campus who dumped a £5 note in the slot for a £1.10/£1.25 fare.... Especially when a mere 30 second walk took you to the change machines (for the pool tables etc.) in the students' union.

 

[Dai Corner]

That is an option and ticks *most* of the boxes but is costlier for the operator. Cash is really expensive to handle, so if you can eliminate it there's money to spend on other things.

Cardiff Bus cover all bases I think, with cash vaults, their own Iff card, mobile tickets and Contactless coming very soon. That can't do much for their costs though.

 

[Statto]

Supermarkets that have those £1 trolleys, if you don't have a £1 coin, you can go in to the supermarket & change money to include £1 coin, i did it couple of weeks ago, you can't do that if you don't have the exact fare for the bus that have exact fare policy, especially if there's no way to change money to exact fare needed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Supermarkets that have those £1 trolleys, if you don't have a £1 coin, you can go in to the supermarket & change money to include £1 coin

Or you hang around at the trolley park with 5x20p, 2x50p, 10x10p, a £2 coin or whatever else you might have and ask someone else for change, it's usually forthcoming quite quickly as everyone returning a trolley who doesn't use a token has a quid by definition.

That doesn't work with a bus, because if you "hang around" you've missed it.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Or you hang around at the trolley park with 5x20p, 2x50p, 10x10p, a £2 coin or whatever else you might have and ask someone else for change, it's usually forthcoming quite quickly as everyone returning a trolley who doesn't use a token has a quid by definition.

That doesn't work with a bus, because if you "hang around" you've missed it.

oddly what usually happens on our local operator that's exact fare when a stranger gets on that is unfamiliar with the system is that half a dozen old ladies dash forward with their purses open with a cry of "what change do you need love"

 

[Andyh82]

What is quite interesting as that some of the main exact fare operators are some of the most successful operators in the country, the ones that are overseeing growing networks and regularly winning awards. So it can’t be seen as a barrier to the travel in reality.

 

[BestWestern]

yes we can have opposing views, just don't selectively quote to support your views because I will always challenge that

Aww I can't take credit for another chap's work now, the selection was all yours!

 

[BestWestern]

oddly what usually happens on our local operator that's exact fare when a stranger gets on that is unfamiliar with the system is that half a dozen old ladies dash forward with their purses open with a cry of "what change do you need love"

That isn't exactly the sort of 'customer service' that most companies tend to aspire to, though!

 

[AJW12]

ah but that then causes another problem... for those visiting London it becomes prohibitively expensive to use the bus. I was there recently and only wanted to use the bus once. To get on the bus I would've had to have paid a deposit to get my oystercard and then pay a minimum top up onto the card BEFORE even getting anywhere near a bus. Needless to say I thought that was all a bit too much of a hassle {and too much expense} for one short journey... and instead headed underground!

radical thought... why not have contactless payment AND a cash vault... then NO-ONE can claim to be inconvenienced

It is a bit of a hassle but:

• London buses do use contactless / Apple / Android Pay and that makes the bus relatively cheap, especially with the Hopper fare makes it good value.
• Can't oyster be topped up with a phone app?
• And if you use an oyster which doesn't have enough credit I believe there is a mechanism in place where you're allowed to board and a ticket is printed which informs the passenger their Oyster is now in a negative balance so needs to be topped off prior to the next journey.

Overall it does make the boarding speed much faster though. And I agree with one of the above points, it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to put the fares on the bus stop. Might help people actually count their fare out first.

Admittedly I think it depends on location - having lived in London and York for a substantial amount of time (amongst other places) people in London do typically have their oyster/ticket/card ready whereas in York there do seem to be a lot more people who'll wait for the bus without even looking at their wallet/purse and will wait until they've boarded to find it and then hand over a tenner.