Excessing from a Single to a Return. How do they work?

[lm321412]

Good Evening.

This has probably been answered many times on the forum but after a quick look through the search I am still slightly confused by how excessing actually works.


A few weeks ago I used Chiltern from Moor Street to Warwick and bought an anytime day single at £4.30 (with R/C Discount). Plans changed later on that day and I then required to return back from Warwick to Moor Street on the same day.

So, as the train came in I spoke to the guard if I could get an excess to a return and he said thats fine and get on board. The guard came straight out to me and sold me an "Excess Ticket" worth 65p which made the equivalent fare of £4.95.


Today, I travelled from Birmingham Snow Hill to Cradley Heath and bought a anytime single ticket, only to make the mistake of having ever changing plans and requiring to use the train to get back to Birmingham once again.
So, when I returned to Cradley Heath I asked if I could buy an excess to make up the return fare. The ticket office clerk was having none of it, and rather abruptly said that I had to buy a new single if I wanted to travel back to Birmingham. He said that the necessary time had lapsed to do an excess.


I am not going to say I know the excess rules inside out because I don't, Infact I know very little about them. But who was correct on this instance? Having used two completely different train operators they both seem to have given very conflicting answers regarding how the excess ticket works...


Thanks

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The clerk at Cradley Heath was correct. A ticket cannot be excessed once it has expired, and the original single expired as soon as you left the station having completed that initial single journey.

 

[yorkie]

So, as the train came in I spoke to the guard if I could get an excess to a return and he said thats fine and get on board. The guard came straight out to me and sold me an "Excess Ticket" worth 65p which made the equivalent fare of £4.95.

That was lucky!

Today, I travelled from Birmingham Snow Hill to Cradley Heath and bought a anytime single ticket, only to make the mistake of having ever changing plans and requiring to use the train to get back to Birmingham once again.
So, when I returned to Cradley Heath I asked if I could buy an excess to make up the return fare. The ticket office clerk was having none of it, and rather abruptly said that I had to buy a new single if I wanted to travel back to Birmingham. He said that the necessary time had lapsed to do an excess.

That's correct. An expired ticket is not supposed to be exessed.

I am not going to say I know the excess rules inside out because I don't, Infact I know very little about them. But who was correct on this instance?

The booking clerk.

You will get people who either "show discretion" or do not know the rules, who will issue an excess when they're not supposed to, though.

That's said it's more common to be refused a valid excess - many staff either don't know how to issue excess fares, or don't want to.

My advice is to buy a return if you're unsure. Likewise, some people occasionally decide to make a longer journey which may cost the same, or only a little more, and my advice there again is to buy the ticket for the longer journey in those cases too.

 

[bb21]

Both are correct. The Chiltern guard used his discretion. The LM staff was technically correct according to the rules as kwvr45 says. This is to prevent people just picking up expired tickets off the floor and paying just the excess fare.

 

[lm321412]

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated!

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated!

You're welcome

We have a section on this matter in our Fares Guide: RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements if you'd like to read more

Single to Return excesses are not included in our Guide. This is because they are only normally issued to correct a mistake, ie you pressed the wrong button at a ticket machine, and should be requested at the first available opportunity (usually at the origin, if the ticket office is open). They are not meant to be issued for a change of travel plans, but of course staff do sometimes show discretion. However, as this has cropped up a few times, we could consider including it.

 

[Muzer]

I encountered an XC guard the other day who, when asked for an overdistance excess, went and just sold one of my friends a single. We didn't want to start an argument over what was IIRC about £1.50 (it was supposed to be an OD excess Southampton Airport (Parkway) to Swaythling) so none of us said anything. She then started (in jest, I hope, but I couldn't quite tell) accusing us of being fare dodgers when my other friend decided to get the bus instead of buying a similar "excess" (as he'd just managed to get the bus timetable on his phone and realised we wouldn't miss the last one as he initially thought, and he lived rather further from Swaythling station than we did). I have a feeling I might have also encountered her before, being unable to figure out how to sell me a Day Ranger (admittedly not on her home turf). Poor show considering guards tend to be the best at selling tickets (in my experience).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I encountered an XC guard the other day who, when asked for an overdistance excess, went and just sold one of my friends a single. We didn't want to start an argument over what was IIRC about £1.50 (it was supposed to be an OD excess Southampton Airport (Parkway) to Swaythling) so none of us said anything....

If you started your journey at a station with an open ticket office, the 'Guard' was correct to charge the single fare for the extra journey. They *may* sell the excess fare if it is cheaper, but are under no obligation to do so.

 

[yorkie]

I encountered an XC guard the other day who, when asked for an overdistance excess, went and just sold one of my friends a single. We didn't want to start an argument over what was IIRC about £1.50 (it was supposed to be an OD excess Southampton Airport (Parkway) to Swaythling) so none of us said anything.

There is not enough information to say whether or not this was correct.

As HHF says, it depends on what facilities were available at the origin station.

She then started (in jest, I hope, but I couldn't quite tell) accusing us of being fare dodgers when my other friend decided to get the bus instead

Probably in jest, I'd guess. Deciding to boycott railways for other modes of transport isn't "fare dodging". The rail industry prices itself so high in some cases that my conclusion is that some of the pricing mangers want to discourage rail travel and therefore must want people to use other modes. Even David Mapp of ATOC once indicated he'd prefer people to purchase CDs or go to the theatre, rather than buy [Off Peak] tickets for leisure travel! But now we're going off-topic

 

[Muzer]

If you started your journey at a station with an open ticket office, the 'Guard' was correct to charge the single fare for the extra journey. They *may* sell the excess fare if it is cheaper, but are under no obligation to do so.

We started at Newbury Racecourse, and had a short connection at Reading.

 

[Flamingo]

I'd struggle to sell a Day Ranger. I think I've been asked for one once, and the passenger in question told me where to find it in the Avantex. I can't remember where.

 

[Matt Taylor]

An overdistance excess can be sold on board provided it is requested prior to the destination on the original ticket.

If a passenger holds a Waterloo-Basingstoke single but now wants to travel to Southampton, the passenger must ask for the excess before the train calls at Basingstoke otherwise they are treated as having no valid ticket and will be sold a full fare single from Basingstoke to Southampton (assuming revenue staff don't get to them first).

In the same situation but on a train that runs non stop Woking-Winchester the passenger must ask for the excess before the train leaves Woking, on departure from Woking the ticket is no longer valid (unless it is a rover, season, leisure pass etc).

 

[yorkie]

Yes, I'd agree with that.

Note that some Guards will only sell an excess to a full fare ticket, even if you approach them before the last valid stop, if there's been s missed 'opportunity' to buy.

 

[jkdd77]

This may be somewhat off-topic, but, as a matter of curiosity, is it possible to combine an overdistance excess with a change of type; for example, could a B to C SSR return portion, (i.e. from C to B), be excessed to an A to C SVR return portion (i.e. from C to A)?

 

[yorkie]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1185794&postcount=5

....

If bought from ticket office or on board with no opportunity to pay before boarding:

• ....The difference is between the price paid and the APPROPRIATE ticket type for the new journey....

If bought on board where there was opportunity to pay before boarding:

• ....The difference is between the price paid and the FULL ticket type for the new journey

The "SVR" may well be the "appropriate" fare, so this does need to be requested at the first opportunity.


If requesting the excess on-board where facilities (ie, an open ticket office) existed at your origin, the Guard is within their rights to insist that the ticket type be to the "full" fare, ie Anytime. However, as mentioned above, in practice if people ask the Guard to excess the ticket before they reach the destination (as described by Matt Taylor), the Guard would generally excess up to the "appropriate" fare rather than the "full" fare.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

An overdistance excess can be sold on board provided it is requested prior to the destination on the original ticket.

If a passenger holds a Waterloo-Basingstoke single but now wants to travel to Southampton, the passenger must ask for the excess before the train calls at Basingstoke otherwise they are treated as having no valid ticket and will be sold a full fare single from Basingstoke to Southampton (assuming revenue staff don't get to them first).

In the same situation but on a train that runs non stop Woking-Winchester the passenger must ask for the excess before the train leaves Woking, on departure from Woking the ticket is no longer valid (unless it is a rover, season, leisure pass etc).

Have the rules changed recently then?....