Excessing Railcard Discounted Tickets Used at an Invalid Time

[AdamWW]

Digital ticketing is the reason. A human-eye scanning a ticket is far less likely to check the ticket price. Now barcodes are scanned it'll instantly flag as invalid.

Actually I think it's been said here that the railcard minimum fare isn't flagged as invalid.

With the risk that someone commits the "offence" many times before this is spotted, leading to demands for a new ticket for every occasion.

 

[Hadders]

Actually I think it's been said here that the railcard minimum fare isn't flagged as invalid.

Happy to be corrected but I can't recall every seeing that on here.

 

[quartile]

The ToC are under no obligation to run promotions, railcard schemes, £1 fares etc. All these are commercial offerings which they decide based on overall business strategy. If it turns out to be more faff than what it's worth then it won't take long to be discontinued.

Thankfully ToCs are on the way out and GBR will hopefully be empowered to come up with better alternatives which are consistent nationally and achieve the goal of increasing Rail ridership

 

[Krokodil]

Happy to be corrected but I can't recall every seeing that on here.

Certainly doesn't get automatically flagged with us. It relies on the vigilance of the inspector to spot it.

 

[AdamWW]

Happy to be corrected but I can't recall every seeing that on here.

So am I. And I don't have time to go digging now to find it. But I'm pretty sure that I read it.

 

[Hadders]

The ToC are under no obligation to run promotions, railcard schemes, £1 fares etc. All these are commercial offerings which they decide based on overall business strategy. If it turns out to be more faff than what it's worth then it won't take long to be discontinued.

Actually, Discounted Fares Schemes for the Young, Elderly and Disabled people were part of the Privitisation Legislation.

I agree there is risk is that nationalisation will see this safeguard removed, similar to what we're seeing with Regulated Fares with LNER's fares trial. That said, while some people will be 'trying it on', many won't be and we should not standby as people get prosecuted when there is so much ambiguity over the railcard minimum fare.

Remember, the railway does not have a good record when it comes to this sort of thing. 75,000 people being incorrectly prosecuted is a rather sobering thought.

 

[Jim the Jim]

My Network Railcard has the time restriction printed on the front, but I don't think that's the case with other card types. "Minimum fare £12 until 1000 except in July and August" would take up quite a bit of space to be fair. Perhaps what is really needed is a simplification of the rules.

 

[rs101]

My Network Railcard has the time restriction printed on the front, but I don't think that's the case with other card types. "Minimum fare £12 until 1000 except in July and August" would take up quite a bit of space to be fair. Perhaps what is really needed is a simplification of the rules.

It would need to say more than that - it's valid any time weekends and bank holidays, for example.

Adding a "subject to Railcard restrictions" line to the ticket (and with a link to the appropriate website on etickets) would make at least make it clear to the ticket holder that some restrictions apply.
That already happens for off peak tickets

 

[wilbers]

"Min. £12 fare before 1000 M-F exc. BH and advances." is about as short as its possible to get that to, and doesn't really work. Time restriction needs to be printed on the tickets themselves, then many won't accidentally misuse them to begin with.

 

[AdamWW]

"Min. £12 fare before 1000 M-F exc. BH and advances." is about as short as its possible to get that to, and doesn't really work. Time restriction needs to be printed on the tickets themselves, then many won't accidentally misuse them to begin with.

We don't print time restrictions on off peak tickets.

Personally I think all they need to do is:
1) Stop mis-selling (telling people there are no time restrictions when there are, automatically selecting the first discounted train, etc.)
2) React proportionately when someone gets it wrong, just as they are supposed to do for a time restricted ticket, Network railcard used too early etc.

 

[AlterEgo]

2) React proportionately when someone gets it wrong, just as they are supposed to do for a time restricted ticket, Network railcard used too early etc.

Indeed, people travelling at the incorrect time on an off peak ticket, or off route when holding a geographically restricted cheaper ticket are asked merely to pay the excess. In fact, neither of these circumstances are offences or penalty fare-able

"But what about some people who are chancing it or getting a better deal because they have a bit of chutzpah?" is such a British brain worm which comes from the fear of Other People Having A Better Time - it informs so much of our culture and politics. It is by some distance my least favourite thing about this country.

 

[tspaul26]

Indeed, people travelling at the incorrect time on an off peak ticket, or off route when holding a geographically restricted cheaper ticket are asked merely to pay the excess. In fact, neither of these circumstances are offences or penalty fare-able

Are you able to cite any authority for the proposition in bold?

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you able to cite any authority for the proposition in bold?

NRCoT tell you what *will* happen in these circumstances, and breaks these instances out from other ticketing matters to deal with them separately:

9.5 Where you:

9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or

9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or

9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

It is on these grounds that (I think) every Penalty Fare we have seen issued wrongly in those circumstances - and there are not many instances - has been overturned.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Indeed, people travelling at the incorrect time on an off peak ticket, or off route when holding a geographically restricted cheaper ticket are asked merely to pay the excess. In fact, neither of these circumstances are offences or penalty fare-able

And what happens when the person refuses to pay the excess?

"But what about some people who are chancing it or getting a better deal because they have a bit of chutzpah?" is such a British brain worm which comes from the fear of Other People Having A Better Time - it informs so much of our culture and politics. It is by some distance my least favourite thing about this country.

Lumping in chances with people getting a good deal isn't fair imo. Let's call chances for what they are. Fare evaders. People who knowingly buy a cheaper ticket than what is valid for their journey (or refuse to buy any tickets unless challenged) whilst the rest of us play by the actual rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And what happens when the person refuses to pay the excess?

Then you issue a PF, and if they refuse that you make a report and proceed to prosecution.

To be fair, a lot of these cases do escalate because people do exactly that.

 

[Haywain]

Then you issue a PF, and if they refuse that you make a report and proceed to prosecution.

If a PF isn't appropriate because the excess is, then the next step for someone refusing to pay an excess must surely be to report for potential prosecution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a PF isn't appropriate because the excess is, then the next step for someone refusing to pay an excess must surely be to report for potential prosecution.

If a PF can't be issued for refusal to pay, then yes, refusal would have to mean going straight for a TIR.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Ayoud Khan MP submitted four written questions to the DfT on Wednesday. Three were specifically about this issue, the other was:

“To ask the Secretary of State for Transport, if she will have discussions with Northern Rail on its use of private prosecutions.”

I await the response with interest.

 

[Cuthbert]

Then you issue a PF, and if they refuse that you make a report and proceed to prosecution.

To be fair, a lot of these cases do escalate because people do exactly that.

If they refuse a PF meaning no details? If that's the case you won't be able to MG them with no passenger details

 

[AlterEgo]

And what happens when the person refuses to pay the excess?

We aren't talking about people who refuse. In the cases in this thread, passengers are not being offered to just pay the excess.

Lumping in chances with people getting a good deal isn't fair imo. Let's call chances for what they are. Fare evaders. People who knowingly buy a cheaper ticket than what is valid for their journey (or refuse to buy any tickets unless challenged) whilst the rest of us play by the actual rules.

So you think people who take a ROUTE HIGH WYCOMBE ticket via the South WCML are fare evading then? Even though they have an unalloyed right to upgrade without penalty on board? What about if someone proffers travel vouchers to a guard for sale, knowing they might not be able to process them, despite them being a perfectly valid method of payment?

Why does it make people cross that if, for example, I break my journey when not entitled, I only have to pay an excess to the fare - if asked for it, which wouldn't be always - and I don't get penalised?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

If a PF can't be issued for refusal to pay, then yes, refusal would have to mean going straight for a TIR.

Correct. PF cannot be issued for refusal to pay, so TIR and report for prosecution would be appropriate in that circumstance.

 

[ainsworth74]

We don't print time restrictions on off peak tickets.

But we do print a link to those restrictions:


(Screenshot from a recent e-ticket of mine which under ticket details says: "This ticket can only be used at certain times, for details ask staff or go to nre.co.uk/B3")

I do feel that part of the solution here is a technical one which is when a railcard discount is applied to an Anytime ticket which is subject to the minimum fare that a line appears under there saying words to the effect of: "This ticket is not valid before 10.00 due to the 16-25 Railcard Minimum Fare rule".

If they refuse a PF meaning no details? If that's the case you won't be able to MG them with no passenger details

Surely you just do what you'd do with any other passenger in that situation? This does not seem to be an obvious reason why an excess should not be issued in this situation?

 

[Cuthbert]

Surely you just do what you'd do with any other passenger in that situation? This does not seem to be an obvious reason why an excess should not be issued in this situation?

It was in reply to Bletchleyite saying if a PF cannot be issues then prosecutions should be next.
Impossible to MG if you cannot get details.

The Envoy machines we use will not let you excess a discounted rail card ticket to a normal ticket.
Same as Adult on Child ticket. You cannot excess it from a child ticket to an adult one.

 

[ainsworth74]

It was in reply to Bletchleyite saying if a PF cannot be issues then prosecutions should be next.
Impossible to MG if you cannot get details.

I see, but the answer would still to remain the same. If they refuse to give details you'd treat them the same as anyone else in that boat.

The Envoy machines we use will not let you excess a discounted rail card ticket to a normal ticket.

Seems like whoever provides the Envoy machines needs to update their programming in my opinion!

 

[redreni]

Seems like whoever provides the Envoy machines needs to update their programming in my opinion!

Sounds very expensive.

Wouldn't a more reasonable and proportionate measure be to prosecute a load of people for not paying an excess that was never asked for and staff were not equipped to collect?

 

[methecooldude]

The Envoy machines we use will not let you excess a discounted rail card ticket to a normal ticket.
Same as Adult on Child ticket. You cannot excess it from a child ticket to an adult one.

You use Worldline? You absolutely can excess a railcard ticket to none railcard. Calculate Excess > Change of Ticket Type > Yes
You are correct you can't excess a child to adult

 

[Cuthbert]

You use Worldline? You absolutely can excess a railcard ticket to none railcard. Calculate Excess > Change of Ticket Type > Yes
You are correct you can't excess a child to adult

Ah my bad been ages since I had to. Thought you could not.

 

[LowLevel]

You use Worldline? You absolutely can excess a railcard ticket to none railcard. Calculate Excess > Change of Ticket Type > Yes
You are correct you can't excess a child to adult

You have to set the railcard type to set up the excess and our Worldline MTIS machines don't as far as I recall allow you to remove the railcard filter selection on the excess screen. I will have a play though and report back.

 

[ianBR]

The problem here is that you also seem to be of a mind that it is unreasonable for people to read the terms and conditions in the first place.

And let me tell you a secret from over a decade of professional experience: they still won’t read them even if you add these rubrics.

You are, quite frankly, casting around for excuses.

It’s ridiculous expecting people to remember all the Ts and Cs of every service that they buy for the next year.

I’m willing to bet that 100% of the population don’t read the pages of Ts and Cs for all the goods and services they buy.

Rail staff themselves can’t even get the terms and conditions right at times for tickets and restrictions and they are supposedly highly trained and spend every day dealing with tickets

In this day at age there is zero excuse not to make all major terms and conditions highly visible on any ticket within an app or eticket where you are not limited for space (and particularly where a TOC is going to drag you to court should you forget one of them)

The word anytime should always mean anytime unless it is immediately followed by text to explain a restriction. It’s basic common sense.

 

[fandroid]

How much would it cost the rail industry to simply stop applying that £12 minimum rule? If they're at all commercially minded I would suspect that they'd see an overall increase in rail travel by young people and probably see a net financial benefit.

They really don't seem to appreciate how customer unfriendly all these irritating "small print" restrictions are.

 

[AdamWW]

You are correct you can't excess a child to adult

And I don't think anything in the NRCoT suggests that you should be able to.

Unlike using a railcard discounted ticket at the wrong time.

I do feel that part of the solution here is a technical one which is when a railcard discount is applied to an Anytime ticket which is subject to the minimum fare that a line appears under there saying words to the effect of: "This ticket is not valid before 10.00 due to the 16-25 Railcard Minimum Fare rule".

Quite.

How anybody can argue that it's OK to tell someone their ticket is valid at all times then prosecute them for believing what they were told is beyond me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

How much would it cost the rail industry to simply stop applying that £12 minimum rule? If they're at all commercially minded I would suspect that they'd see an overall increase in rail travel by young people and probably see a net financial benefit.

They really don't seem to appreciate how customer unfriendly all these irritating "small print" restrictions are.

Presumably the intent was to capture leisure travel while not losing money from commuting that was going to the railway anyway.

Does seem a bit daft though on routes where there are advances (which don't have the minimum fare rule) available up to departure for small amounts.