Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[Altfish]

I

While I think Beattock is a "no-brainer" reopening, I'm not so sure about the others. The real problem is what service do you get to serve these stations, and how will those extra stops impact on timings for the WCML expresses? Do you have to sacrifice a freight path?

would think that only Beattock will affect the WCML expresses. It is filling a gap and about 15 miles from Lockerbie; it could do with being on a loop so that Virgin trains can pass if necessary
Eastriggs and Thornhill are on a 'slow' line anyway, and extra 5-minutes will make little difference.

 

[Highlandspring]

While I think Beattock is a "no-brainer" reopening, I'm not so sure about the others. The real problem is what service do you get to serve these stations, and how will those extra stops impact on timings for the WCML expresses? Do you have to sacrifice a freight path?

I think what I’d do is scrap the Glasgow Central - Edinburgh Waverley via Carstairs services and run Glasgow Central - Carlisle via Carstairs, calling at Motherwell, Wishaw, Carluke, Carstairs, Abington (station reopened on the loops), Beattock (station reopened on the loops), Lockerbie and Carlisle. If you could get the class 385s or 380s approved for 110mph use and put the platforms at Abington and Beattock on the loops to keep them out of the way it shouldn’t be too hard to find a path.

 

[railjock]

I

would think that only Beattock will affect the WCML expresses. It is filling a gap and about 15 miles from Lockerbie; it could do with being on a loop so that Virgin trains can pass if necessary
Eastriggs and Thornhill are on a 'slow' line anyway, and extra 5-minutes will make little difference.

What current services would be expected to serve Beattock?

 

[Voyager lad]

I think what I’d do is scrap the Glasgow Central - Edinburgh Waverley via Carstairs services and run Glasgow Central - Carlisle via Carstairs, calling at Motherwell, Wishaw, Carluke, Carstairs, Abington (station reopened on the loops), Beattock (station reopened on the loops), Lockerbie and Carlisle. If you could get the class 385s or 380s approved for 110mph use and put the platforms at Abington and Beattock on the loops to keep them out of the way it shouldn’t be too hard to find a path.

I agree with this. If the track could be reinstated to allow trains to run from Lanark - Edinburgh via Carstairs then have 1tph Lanark - Edinburgh to keep the connection between Carstairs and Edinburgh, and have 1tph Glasgow - Carlisle to stop at the new WCML local stations as well as keeping the connection between Glasgow and Carstairs

 

[d9009alycidon]

What current services would be expected to serve Beattock?

I would imagine that if you twisted Virgin' arm they would provide around the three in each direction that Lockerbie enjoys, so it would be down to Trans Pennine to make up the numbers. Having a look back at the 1948 timetable the trains stopping then were a couple of "all stops" and the Edinburgh/Glasgow to Manchester/Liverpool trains with the only through train to London being the Perth service. The timetable can be viewed in full on the Timetable World site

 

[Altfish]

What current services would be expected to serve Beattock?

TPE, like Lockerbie?
I think Lockerbie has about 2(?) Virgin train a day in each direction

 

[NotATrainspott]

It would presumably be cheaper for Transport Scotland to fund extra TPE calls than to run a whole extra service carrying largely fresh air. The furthest the ScotRail service would ever go is Carlisle, and from there there's a reasonably frequent express service on InterCity stock into Glasgow and Edinburgh. Any ScotRail service would therefore exist only for the handful of passengers at intermediate stops, so it'd be a financial basket case. If TS are willing to cough up for a new station, they can presumably subsidise any TPE/Virgin fares to be equivalent of what ScotRail would charge.

 

[alangla]

I’m not sure how a ScotRail WCML stopper would ever add up vs more TPX calls. An ECML stopper to Newcastle calling at Musselburgh, Dunbar, (new stations), Berwick, almost all stops to Newcastle on the other hand might though

 

[lancastrian]

Just adding my 2 penny worth here. Looking at these three proposed station re-openings, I make the following observations.

Beattock: Apart from the town of Moffat, there isn't much potential for traffic. But having said that, there is about the same as Lockerbie.
When the station was closed, BR obviously thought that it wasn't worth keeping open. My question is, 'has that changed'? Plus as has been said, any stops here would use up capacity on the WCML, unless the loops are used for stopping trains.

Eastriggs: This is just a smallish town, and not that far from either Annan or Gretna. So would the potential usage be enough to allow for any reduction in usage of these two stations. I seriously question it.

Thornhill: Now this one I feel has the greatest potential, although not massive. It is equidistant between Dumfries and Sandquhar. As well as being quite far from both of them. In the past there have been a number of station re-openings on the old G&SWR route to Carlisle. They seem to have done quite well, so I would hope/presume that Thornhill would as well.

While I would be really happy if all three are re-opened, realistically I feel that only Thornhill has a real chance. Far better to use any spare cash to re-open the Waverley Route as far as Hawick.

 

[alangla]

Given the way Stagecoach’s X74 bus has developed, there must be a market on that route. Would be interesting to see figures for the end to end vs intermediate stops

 

[MadMac]

Just adding my 2 penny worth here. Looking at these three proposed station re-openings, I make the following observations.

Beattock: Apart from the town of Moffat, there isn't much potential for traffic. But having said that, there is about the same as Lockerbie.
When the station was closed, BR obviously thought that it wasn't worth keeping open. My question is, 'has that changed'? Plus as has been said, any stops here would use up capacity on the WCML, unless the loops are used for stopping trains.

Eastriggs: This is just a smallish town, and not that far from either Annan or Gretna. So would the potential usage be enough to allow for any reduction in usage of these two stations. I seriously question it.

Thornhill: Now this one I feel has the greatest potential, although not massive. It is equidistant between Dumfries and Sandquhar. As well as being quite far from both of them. In the past there have been a number of station re-openings on the old G&SWR route to Carlisle. They seem to have done quite well, so I would hope/presume that Thornhill would as well.

While I would be really happy if all three are re-opened, realistically I feel that only Thornhill has a real chance. Far better to use any spare cash to re-open the Waverley Route as far as Hawick.

Beattock was, as I recall, closed due to the cost of replacing the footbridge for electrification at a little-used station - IIRC, the present peak-time services to/from Carstairs used to originate/terminate at Beattock. Population of Moffat is around 2500, but is there much of a "commuter" potential?

Eastriggs and Thornhill populations are both around 1600 with not much of anything else in the immediate surrounding area. Thornhill is, as I recall, some distance from the town itself.

Question is, at what point do you draw the line on reopenings?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thornhill: Now this one I feel has the greatest potential, although not massive. It is equidistant between Dumfries and Sandquhar. As well as being quite far from both of them. In the past there have been a number of station re-openings on the old G&SWR route to Carlisle. They seem to have done quite well, so I would hope/presume that Thornhill would as well.

What is the current bus service provision in the Thornhill area like and what are the public transport links to and from there?

 

[433N]

Suburbs in all directions from Edinburgh (and Glasgow) are currently served by rail to some (often excellent) degree EXCEPT the south western side of Edinburgh. Re-instating the line to Penicuik (and Peebles) should be high on the political agenda as it would serve a far greater number of people than extending the Borders Railway to Hawick.

South western Edinburgh suffers chronic road congestion and has a few places in the Top 10 hotspots for traffic congestion in Britain (yes, Britain, not Scotland).

Penicuik and Hawick have around the same populations but there are far greater populations along the route to Penicuik (from the old junction south of Eskbank) than Tweedbank - Hawick. It is around 9 miles Penicuik to Edinburgh and the nearest station is Newtongrange which is about the same distance (in a different direction). About half the distance of track would be required to take the railway to Penicuik than Tweedbank-Hawick.

Both towns could do with some regeneration.

I just don't know why there is so much talk of extending the Borders Railway when this is the more obvious economically-viable project with a greater need.

 

[marks87]

Suburbs in all directions from Edinburgh (and Glasgow) are currently served by rail to some (often excellent) degree EXCEPT the south western side of Edinburgh. Re-instating the line to Penicuik (and Peebles) should be high on the political agenda as it would serve a far greater number of people than extending the Borders Railway to Hawick.

South western Edinburgh suffers chronic road congestion and has a few places in the Top 10 hotspots for traffic congestion in Britain (yes, Britain, not Scotland).

Penicuik and Hawick have around the same populations but there are far greater populations along the route to Penicuik (from the old junction south of Eskbank) than Tweedbank - Hawick. It is around 9 miles Penicuik to Edinburgh and the nearest station is Newtongrange which is about the same distance (in a different direction). About half the distance of track would be required to take the railway to Penicuik than Tweedbank-Hawick.

Both towns could do with some regeneration.

I just don't know why there is so much talk of extending the Borders Railway when this is the more obvious economically-viable project with a greater need.

It would seem there's an obvious solution to all the suggestions in this thread:

Extend the Borders railway to Hawick, cut right across to join the WCML at Beattock, then leave it again up to Peebles and Penicuik, and join the South Sub somewhere around Blackford. The "Lothian and Borders Circle". Combine it with Fife Circle services and it could be the Edinburgh (figure of) Eight.

 

[railjock]

Suburbs in all directions from Edinburgh (and Glasgow) are currently served by rail to some (often excellent) degree EXCEPT the south western side of Edinburgh. Re-instating the line to Penicuik (and Peebles) should be high on the political agenda as it would serve a far greater number of people than extending the Borders Railway to Hawick.

South western Edinburgh suffers chronic road congestion and has a few places in the Top 10 hotspots for traffic congestion in Britain (yes, Britain, not Scotland).

Penicuik and Hawick have around the same populations but there are far greater populations along the route to Penicuik (from the old junction south of Eskbank) than Tweedbank - Hawick. It is around 9 miles Penicuik to Edinburgh and the nearest station is Newtongrange which is about the same distance (in a different direction). About half the distance of track would be required to take the railway to Penicuik than Tweedbank-Hawick.

Both towns could do with some regeneration.

I just don't know why there is so much talk of extending the Borders Railway when this is the more obvious economically-viable project with a greater need.

The route from Eskbank to Penicuik is built on in parts but the biggest negative, for me anyway, is that it’s a pretty long route to get into central Edinburgh from Penicuik that way compared to the direct road.

 

[Steamysandy]

Simpler suggestion reopen the Peebles loop from Hardengreen via Eddleston to Peebles which passes close to Penicuik as phase one.
Phase two would be a branch into Penicuik and the line from Peebles via Innerleithenand Cardrona to Galashiels
If we got to phase three it would be Symington- Bigger - Peebles.

 

[Altnabreac]

Just adding my 2 penny worth here. Looking at these three proposed station re-openings, I make the following observations.

Beattock: Apart from the town of Moffat, there isn't much potential for traffic. But having said that, there is about the same as Lockerbie.
When the station was closed, BR obviously thought that it wasn't worth keeping open. My question is, 'has that changed'? Plus as has been said, any stops here would use up capacity on the WCML, unless the loops are used for stopping trains.

Eastriggs: This is just a smallish town, and not that far from either Annan or Gretna. So would the potential usage be enough to allow for any reduction in usage of these two stations. I seriously question it.

Thornhill: Now this one I feel has the greatest potential, although not massive. It is equidistant between Dumfries and Sandquhar. As well as being quite far from both of them. In the past there have been a number of station re-openings on the old G&SWR route to Carlisle. They seem to have done quite well, so I would hope/presume that Thornhill would as well.

While I would be really happy if all three are re-opened, realistically I feel that only Thornhill has a real chance. Far better to use any spare cash to re-open the Waverley Route as far as Hawick.

I'm unconvinced by this bit.

Lockerbie acts as a railhead for wider Dumfriesshire / Stewartry - Edinburgh traffic and to a lesser extent for Dumfriesshire / Stewartry - London / Glasgow traffic.

Beattock to an extent can serve the same role, but either you'd achieve this by removing calls from Lockerbie as you'd be extracting some of the park and ride demand from Lockerbie, or by having extra calls at Beattock which impede current long distance journey times without increasing the demand for park and ride users. Increasing the number of calls at Lockerbie instead would be likely to be of more benefit to thee wider catchment users than adding calls at Beattock.

So we can only really assess Beattock based on demand from Moffat itself which is likely to be quite limited.

My personal view is that Eastriggs is the best bet of the 3 as it is better located than the out of town stations at Beattock / Thornhill and the higher frequency of Dumfries - Carlisle services means it is more likely to be viable. I think it would need to be part of a wider development strategy to allocate more housing sites in Eastriggs through the LDP2 process.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Suburbs in all directions from Edinburgh (and Glasgow) are currently served by rail to some (often excellent) degree EXCEPT the south western side of Edinburgh. Re-instating the line to Penicuik (and Peebles) should be high on the political agenda as it would serve a far greater number of people than extending the Borders Railway to Hawick.

South western Edinburgh suffers chronic road congestion and has a few places in the Top 10 hotspots for traffic congestion in Britain (yes, Britain, not Scotland).

Penicuik and Hawick have around the same populations but there are far greater populations along the route to Penicuik (from the old junction south of Eskbank) than Tweedbank - Hawick. It is around 9 miles Penicuik to Edinburgh and the nearest station is Newtongrange which is about the same distance (in a different direction). About half the distance of track would be required to take the railway to Penicuik than Tweedbank-Hawick.

Both towns could do with some regeneration.

I just don't know why there is so much talk of extending the Borders Railway when this is the more obvious economically-viable project with a greater need.

It was 16 miles Penicuik to Edinburgh by rail. Compare that with Gorebridge to Edinburgh which is 12 miles by rail and takes 30 mins. So you would be looking at a journey time of about 40 mins from Penicuik. This would be quicker than the bus but more than double the price - a peak time return to Gorebridge is £9.30 compared with an all day ticket on the bus for £4.00.

It wouldn't be easy to reinstate the line either as there has been a lot of building on the trackbed, including a housing estate on the former Hardengreen Junction. There is no room in the Borders railway timetable for additional services so the single track sections of the Borders line would need double tracking from Hardengreen to Portobello Junction.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So you would be looking at a journey time of about 40 mins from Penicuik. This would be quicker than the bus but more than double the price - a peak time return to Gorebridge is £9.30 compared with an all day ticket on the bus for £4.00.

It is noticeable how comparative fares for buses and trains over commuting journeys of reasonably short distances are not taken into consideration by a number of website members, so I was pleased to see such an example of comparative costs stated in a posting.

 

[Photohunter71]

I had noticed in the past 2 weeks a lot of Hi Vis bods all Network rail in the Niddrie west junction triangle. One rumour I've heard is the demolition of the current footbridge over the sub between Asda and Fort Kinnaird, and a new footpath/cycleway installed and the path will end at Asda due to a proposed new housing development in the Jewel, the council and British land to fund part of the footpath project, and fencing to go up on both sides to help stop trolleys amongs other things being dumped in the no mans land that we can see from our flats. Not sure where the guy I heard talking about it got his sources from, but if they were to clear the deadwood away from the footpaths, I'd get an even better view from my bedroom of approaching haulage!

 

[70014IronDuke]

While I think Beattock is a "no-brainer" reopening, I'm not so sure about the others. The real problem is what service do you get to serve these stations, and how will those extra stops impact on timings for the WCML expresses? Do you have to sacrifice a freight path?

Beattock is a "no-brainer"? For which TOC?
Remember, neither Virgin nor TPE* stop at Carstairs, a station that is already there and which has shown remarkable growth** over the past 15 years, considering the paucity of the service.

I think it's a pity the DFt or whoever didn't make TPE stop the new Liverpool-Glasgows at CArstairs.
* Yes, I know one down trains stops in the morning peak, presumably mandated by DfT or some authority.
** 84,000 last year, down from near 96,000 the year before. cf 33,000 in 2014 and only a fraction of that in the mid-2000s.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'm unconvinced by this bit.

Agree 100%.

...My personal view is that Eastriggs is the best bet of the 3 as it is better located than the out of town stations at Beattock / Thornhill and the higher frequency of Dumfries - Carlisle services means it is more likely to be viable. I think it would need to be part of a wider development strategy to allocate more housing sites in Eastriggs through the LDP2 process.

Before anyone opens any new stations on the G&SW, I'd have thought money would be better spent providing stock and crews for a faster and more frequent service. Weekdays is nothing to shout about, and Sundays is dreadful.
We've already had a recent thread by somebody wanting advice on going from Dumfries to Glasgow by driving to Lockerbie. Save the money for any new stations and spend it track and signalling to raise line speeds for what's there now.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Beattock is a "no-brainer"? For which TOC?
Remember, neither Virgin nor TPE* stop at Carstairs, a station that is already there and which has shown remarkable growth** over the past 15 years, considering the paucity of the service.

I think it's a pity the DFt or whoever didn't make TPE stop the new Liverpool-Glasgows at CArstairs.
* Yes, I know one down trains stops in the morning peak, presumably mandated by DfT or some authority.
** 84,000 last year, down from near 96,000 the year before. cf 33,000 in 2014 and only a fraction of that in the mid-2000s.

Carstairs has two things in its advantage, firstly it has one platform which can be used bi-directionally to allow fast services to pass and secondary it is one the Scotrail network, being a stop on the Edinburgh to Ayr service

 

[70014IronDuke]

Carstairs has two things in its advantage, firstly it has one platform which can be used bi-directionally to allow fast services to pass and secondary it is one the Scotrail network, being a stop on the Edinburgh to Ayr service

Yes, I know Scotrail trains stop there, but it's hardly a great service, is it? sort of 2-hourly.
My point is that neither TPE nor Virgin (in particular) want to stop there, so there is no access to or from the south, bar the one pre-dawn arrival from Manchester. If neither TOC wants to stop at Carstairs - a station which, while the local population is small, at least some 'track record' in attracting passengers - how will they want to stop at a re-opened Beattock, a remote location with a very poorly populated catchment area? They won't, simple as, unless forced to.

 

[edwin_m]

Carstairs and Lockerbie are themselves very small communities but are the only stations within quite a large radius so will attract some drive-up traffic.

Beattock must be even smaller so again most of the catchment would also be drive-up. The question is how many of them would just be people who currently drive to Lockerbie or Carstairs. It would take a bit of car mileage off rural main roads but probably not enough of a benefit to outweigh the loss of longer-distance passengers from stopping say a Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh?

 

[PaulLothian]

I had noticed in the past 2 weeks a lot of Hi Vis bods all Network rail in the Niddrie west junction triangle. One rumour I've heard is the demolition of the current footbridge over the sub between Asda and Fort Kinnaird, and a new footpath/cycleway installed and the path will end at Asda due to a proposed new housing development in the Jewel, the council and British land to fund part of the footpath project, and fencing to go up on both sides to help stop trolleys amongs other things being dumped in the no mans land that we can see from our flats. Not sure where the guy I heard talking about it got his sources from, but if they were to clear the deadwood away from the footpaths, I'd get an even better view from my bedroom of approaching haulage!

A worry for the many hundreds of people who walk that path every day, given the lack of alternatives.

 

[InOban]

Lockerbie has a population of 4000 in a prosperous farming area. Beattock is a village surrounded by hills. The two are connected by the M74. Beattock has an hourly express bus to Glasgow and also several buses to Edinburgh.

The Abington area would make more sense, since would give places such as Bigger and Peebles access to the WCML.

 

[433N]

I had noticed in the past 2 weeks a lot of Hi Vis bods all Network rail in the Niddrie west junction triangle. One rumour I've heard is the demolition of the current footbridge over the sub between Asda and Fort Kinnaird, and a new footpath/cycleway installed and the path will end at Asda due to a proposed new housing development in the Jewel, the council and British land to fund part of the footpath project, and fencing to go up on both sides to help stop trolleys amongs other things being dumped in the no mans land that we can see from our flats. Not sure where the guy I heard talking about it got his sources from, but if they were to clear the deadwood away from the footpaths, I'd get an even better view from my bedroom of approaching haulage!

A worry for the many hundreds of people who walk that path every day, given the lack of alternatives.

I can't, for the life of me, think where there is enough land there for a housing development that would require the footpath to be replaced ... it runs from a flight of stairs from Asda Car Park and passes on a thin sliver of land up to Fort Kinnaird ... unless it is going to be the triangle of land which is bounded by railway on all sides ... maybe some retirement flats for spotters.

 

[route101]

Yes, I know Scotrail trains stop there, but it's hardly a great service, is it? sort of 2-hourly.
My point is that neither TPE nor Virgin (in particular) want to stop there, so there is no access to or from the south, bar the one pre-dawn arrival from Manchester. If neither TOC wants to stop at Carstairs - a station which, while the local population is small, at least some 'track record' in attracting passengers - how will they want to stop at a re-opened Beattock, a remote location with a very poorly populated catchment area? They won't, simple as, unless forced to.

I reacall VT stopping at Carstairs , still has a London link with the sleeper

 

[Hagbard Celine]

From the central Borders the easiest road access to the WCML is at Carlisle but there's no free parking near the station, whereas there's plenty at Lockerbie. It's a shorter drive too, though the A708 is a terrible road. The last time I used Lockerbie was to attend an interview in London and had to drive back from the station in a blizzard.
A station at Beattock would obviously be closer, but would still be 40 miles from Gala so unlikely to attract many additional passengers.