Expansions for Scotland's rail network proposed

[NotATrainspott]

Where is the relevancy of where I love now. Until 1967, I could travel from Carlisle to Aberdeen much quicker via Forfar than via Dundee and the same would happen now if this route were still open. In fact until 1967 this was BRs preferred express route and would still be if not closed.
The demand now may be large enough to bypass Dundee but the service does not exist and there is no choice. You have to travel via Dundee, but if there was a choice 30 minutes faster to Aberdeen from say Birmingham, Northwest England, Southwest and West central Scotland...................... Only a demand forecast would confirm.
The daily container train to/from Aberdeen and any other freight need not travel via the tortuous and speed restricted coastal route, but could romp along at a steady, time, fuel and brake disc saving 75mph once away from Perth all the way to Aberdeen. Even at Perth station, the Scottish Midland route is double tracked and faster (40mph northbound) than the single line 20mph route to Dundee.
Why should we stop pressing for a better aligned route built, and then abandoned on a whim, when it is right for the 21st Century when opened.

30 minutes won't make the slightest difference to England-Aberdeen traffic. If you want to get there quickly, you fly. InterCity trains beyond Edinburgh need to be competitive primarily against private motoring, and that means a focus on frequency, convenience and accessibility.

 

[khib70]

Please. When there were through trains via Forfar, how many were there each day? Useful public transport is about frequency. You could never justify an hourly service via Forfar and an hourly fast train to Dundee. The Perth problems could be sorted for a fraction of the cost of reopening the Forfar route. I won't even waste my time looking on Google maps to see how much of the formation still exists.

Train enthusiasts are really their own worst enemies. Buried amid hundreds of crackpot ideas are a few nuggets of sensible, deliverable proposals which get ignored by the funders who are fed up having to draft polite responses to these unaffordable, undeliverable proposals.

Well said, and I share your sense of frustration. Looking at a lot of enthusiast sites on Facebook, they're peppered with ridiculous and unviable projects - Port Road, Hawick-Carlisle, and Glenfarg heading the list. I've even seen someone advocating the re-opening of the utterly useless Lauder banch, which closed to passengers in 1931, after trundling fresh air across empty space for only 30 years. It's annoying, along with the same people constantly prattling about "proper trains".

Nostalgists need to accept that some lines closed because they were unsustainable, even with all the infrastructure in place, far less with most of it gone.

 

[Clansman]

Well said, and I share your sense of frustration. Looking at a lot of enthusiast sites on Facebook, they're peppered with ridiculous and unviable projects - Port Road, Hawick-Carlisle, and Glenfarg heading the list. I've even seen someone advocating the re-opening of the utterly useless Lauder banch, which closed to passengers in 1931, after trundling fresh air across empty space for only 30 years. It's annoying, along with the same people constantly prattling about "proper trains".

Nostalgists need to accept that some lines closed because they were unsustainable, even with all the infrastructure in place, far less with most of it gone.

This.

 

[clc]

The electrification programme and other enhancements will have to be scaled back due to £800 million shortfall for Scottish railways during 2019-2024:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transp...act-of-800m-rail-spending-shortfall-1-4584933

 

[Highland37]

It not the only thing that is going to be scaled back. Multiple areas of delivery of public services are going to be scaled back. Decline is the main reason.

 

[deltic08]

Well said, and I share your sense of frustration. Looking at a lot of enthusiast sites on Facebook, they're peppered with ridiculous and unviable projects - Port Road, Hawick-Carlisle, and Glenfarg heading the list. I've even seen someone advocating the re-opening of the utterly useless Lauder banch, which closed to passengers in 1931, after trundling fresh air across empty space for only 30 years. It's annoying, along with the same people constantly prattling about "proper trains".

Nostalgists need to accept that some lines closed because they were unsustainable, even with all the infrastructure in place, far less with most of it gone.

No, not well said, stupid statement. Wake up to reality and smell the coffee.
Beeching absolutely got it wrong and where he could he cooked the true figures to make it look bad. He didn't understand contributory revenue where town and city folk bought tickets to holiday and seaside resorts. The revenue stayed in the towns and cities and made the figures look good. The destinations weren't allocated 50% of that revenue. Beeching looked at booking office takings only therefore many resorts unfairly lost their stations and branchlines.
Take my station of Ripon, the only station on the Harrogate-Northallerton line, closed in 1967. Beeching looked at booking office takings against operating cost. He loaded operating cost by including non-stop freight and passenger trains using the line. By diverting these trains by an alternate longer route would have cost BR more, but would have reduced operating costs to the point where the line was profitable with only the local stopping service. However, Beeching made it look as if the line was losing £18,000 annually in 1963.
Where he cooked the books was that traffic from the two army camps in Ripon was £31,000 annually but was not taken at the booking office but paid by MOD straight to the BRHQ in York. The line was making £13,000 annual profit.
No attempt was made to reduce overheads by singling the line for just the local service and reducing manned signal boxes to crossing boxes only.
Population of Ripon in 1967 was 8,000. To-day, population is 17,000 and expected to rise to 25,000 by 2025 due to planned house building already in the planning stage. Ripon has become a commuter settlement with 47% of the population commuting. Out of that 47%, 65% travel along one very inadequate A61 road by car to gridlocked Harrogate and gridlocked Leeds in the peaks.
A demand forecast in 2004 estimated 0.73 million footfall at a reinstated station in Ripon very similar to actual footfall in Skipton in 2005. Latest ORR figure for Skipton is 1.04 million footfall and there is no reason to think that Ripon would be any different.
Population explosion and doubling of rail use in the last 11 years makes a difference to the case for reinstating railways.
You scoff at Carlisle-Hawick, but who would have thought Edinburgh-Tweedbank would be so well used now breaking all forecasts.
By the way, there were more passenger trains through Forfar daily than through Galashiels so think again on reopening through Forfar to Aberdeen if Borders rail is anything to go by.
As for electrification, I would rather stay diesel operated and have more routes opened.
NotATrainspott, Altnabreac and Clansman don't have the guts to tell us where they live so for all we know they could be rail connected and are critical of others who want to be. Khib70 definitely is in Edinburgh.

 

[oldman]

You scoff at Carlisle-Hawick, but who would have thought Edinburgh-Tweedbank would be so well used now breaking all forecasts.

Just to correct the myth, in its first year the Tweedbank line's passenger numbers were in line with expectations (actually slightly below). It will be interesting to see the second year figures.

 

[Southsider]

NotATrainspott, Altnabreac and Clansman don't have the guts to tell us where they live so for all we know they could be rail connected and are critical of others who want to be. Khib70 definitely is in Edinburgh.

What a peculiar statement.

I find the well reasoned and informed contributions from some of these members of great interest.

 

[Grinner]

No, not well said, stupid statement. Wake up to reality and smell the coffee.
Beeching absolutely got it wrong and where he could he cooked the true figures to make it look bad. He didn't understand contributory revenue where town and city folk bought tickets to holiday and seaside resorts. The revenue stayed in the towns and cities and made the figures look good. The destinations weren't allocated 50% of that revenue. Beeching looked at booking office takings only therefore many resorts unfairly lost their stations and branchlines.
Take my station of Ripon, the only station on the Harrogate-Northallerton line, closed in 1967. Beeching looked at booking office takings against operating cost. He loaded operating cost by including non-stop freight and passenger trains using the line. By diverting these trains by an alternate longer route would have cost BR more, but would have reduced operating costs to the point where the line was profitable with only the local stopping service. However, Beeching made it look as if the line was losing £18,000 annually in 1963.
Where he cooked the books was that traffic from the two army camps in Ripon was £31,000 annually but was not taken at the booking office but paid by MOD straight to the BRHQ in York. The line was making £13,000 annual profit.
No attempt was made to reduce overheads by singling the line for just the local service and reducing manned signal boxes to crossing boxes only.
Population of Ripon in 1967 was 8,000. To-day, population is 17,000 and expected to rise to 25,000 by 2025 due to planned house building already in the planning stage. Ripon has become a commuter settlement with 47% of the population commuting. Out of that 47%, 65% travel along one very inadequate A61 road by car to gridlocked Harrogate and gridlocked Leeds in the peaks.
A demand forecast in 2004 estimated 0.73 million footfall at a reinstated station in Ripon very similar to actual footfall in Skipton in 2005. Latest ORR figure for Skipton is 1.04 million footfall and there is no reason to think that Ripon would be any different.
Population explosion and doubling of rail use in the last 11 years makes a difference to the case for reinstating railways.
You scoff at Carlisle-Hawick, but who would have thought Edinburgh-Tweedbank would be so well used now breaking all forecasts.
By the way, there were more passenger trains through Forfar daily than through Galashiels so think again on reopening through Forfar to Aberdeen if Borders rail is anything to go by.
As for electrification, I would rather stay diesel operated and have more routes opened.
NotATrainspott, Altnabreac and Clansman don't have the guts to tell us where they live so for all we know they could be rail connected and are critical of others who want to be. Khib70 definitely is in Edinburgh.

The fact that Beeching's methodology is widely accepted to be pretty poor and outright biased is widely accepted by most people, both on here and in the wider world. But that was over 50 years ago, and has nothign to do with whether, now, the best use of transport funds is opening the lines that khib70 mentioned (Port Road, Hawick-Carlisle, Lauder etc.), or indeed Forfar for that matter. And I'm not sure what Ripon has to do with a discusssion about Scotland.

 

[Altnabreac]

NotATrainspott, Altnabreac and Clansman don't have the guts to tell us where they live so for all we know they could be rail connected and are critical of others who want to be. Khib70 definitely is in Edinburgh.

Anyone local should certainly have been able to work out where I live from my location description.
For the benefit of others this may help:

 

[khib70]

No, not well said, stupid statement. Wake up to reality and smell the coffee.
Beeching absolutely got it wrong and where he could he cooked the true figures to make it look bad. He didn't understand contributory revenue where town and city folk bought tickets to holiday and seaside resorts. The revenue stayed in the towns and cities and made the figures look good. The destinations weren't allocated 50% of that revenue. Beeching looked at booking office takings only therefore many resorts unfairly lost their stations and branchlines.
Take my station of Ripon, the only station on the Harrogate-Northallerton line, closed in 1967. Beeching looked at booking office takings against operating cost. He loaded operating cost by including non-stop freight and passenger trains using the line. By diverting these trains by an alternate longer route would have cost BR more, but would have reduced operating costs to the point where the line was profitable with only the local stopping service. However, Beeching made it look as if the line was losing £18,000 annually in 1963.
Where he cooked the books was that traffic from the two army camps in Ripon was £31,000 annually but was not taken at the booking office but paid by MOD straight to the BRHQ in York. The line was making £13,000 annual profit.
No attempt was made to reduce overheads by singling the line for just the local service and reducing manned signal boxes to crossing boxes only.
Population of Ripon in 1967 was 8,000. To-day, population is 17,000 and expected to rise to 25,000 by 2025 due to planned house building already in the planning stage. Ripon has become a commuter settlement with 47% of the population commuting. Out of that 47%, 65% travel along one very inadequate A61 road by car to gridlocked Harrogate and gridlocked Leeds in the peaks.
A demand forecast in 2004 estimated 0.73 million footfall at a reinstated station in Ripon very similar to actual footfall in Skipton in 2005. Latest ORR figure for Skipton is 1.04 million footfall and there is no reason to think that Ripon would be any different.
Population explosion and doubling of rail use in the last 11 years makes a difference to the case for reinstating railways.
You scoff at Carlisle-Hawick, but who would have thought Edinburgh-Tweedbank would be so well used now breaking all forecasts.
By the way, there were more passenger trains through Forfar daily than through Galashiels so think again on reopening through Forfar to Aberdeen if Borders rail is anything to go by.
As for electrification, I would rather stay diesel operated and have more routes opened.
NotATrainspott, Altnabreac and Clansman don't have the guts to tell us where they live so for all we know they could be rail connected and are critical of others who want to be. Khib70 definitely is in Edinburgh.

Beeching's flawed methodology undoubtedly closed a few lines that shouldn't have been closed. But most of those have reopened in response to a sustainable business case. There were other factors which killed off branchline railways, not the least of them being overstaffing. Nostalgia sites are full of black and white photos of country stations, with the stationmaster and half a dozen other staff alongside him. This while there were probably less people than that on the trains. The rail unions tolerance of overstaffing and resistance to staff reductions played its part in the demise of these lines.

You seem to have a thing about posters' locations, while gleefully spending the Scottish rail budget from Yorkshire. Since I am from Edinburgh I can immediately nail your totally irrelevant comparison of Edinburgh- Tweedbank and Hawick-Carlisle. Edinburgh-Tweedbank passes through sizeable commuting communities south of Edinburgh, as well as serving the town of Galashiels (population 15,000 - just slightly less than Ripon). Hawick-Carlisle passes through a few villages, the largest of which, Newcastleton, has a population of 772, and a lot of pretty but empty, moorland. And you think there's no problem with a £1billion reinstatement project? And even assuming there is a need for another diversionary North South line, it's totally unacceptable to base the business case for a reopening on potential use for diversions.

In the real world, we can't be funding the transportation of fresh air, at the expense of communities (possibly even your community) that need and can sustain a rail connection.

 

[deltic08]

The fact that Beeching's methodology is widely accepted to be pretty poor and outright biased is widely accepted by most people, both on here and in the wider world. But that was over 50 years ago, and has nothign to do with whether, now, the best use of transport funds is opening the lines that khib70 mentioned (Port Road, Hawick-Carlisle, Lauder etc.), or indeed Forfar for that matter. And I'm not sure what Ripon has to do with a discusssion about Scotland.

It was an example of how unfairly and corruptly lines were lost in the 1960s and the affect it had on communities. Ripon is still feeling the loss reflected in the local economy, even after 50 years. Scotland is no different.
We will soon find out about Hawick-Carlisle as I understand the Scottish Government is funding a feasibility study. Are you prepared to eat your words if it is favourable?

 

[Altnabreac]

It was an example of how unfairly and corruptly lines were lost in the 1960s and the affect it had on communities. Ripon is still feeling the loss reflected in the local economy, even after 50 years. Scotland is no different.
We will soon find out about Hawick-Carlisle as I understand the Scottish Government is funding a feasibility study. Are you prepared to eat your words if it is favourable?

How on earth can it be favourable. The line doesn't serve any settlements of more than 1,000 people would cost hundreds of millions of pounds and be much slower than the alternative through route for Edinburgh - Carlisle traffic.

Scottish Government is funding a study of possible road and rail interventions in the Borders. I can absolutely guarantee that no rail line south of Hawick will ever reopen.

 

[deltic08]

Beeching's flawed methodology undoubtedly closed a few lines that shouldn't have been closed. But most of those have reopened in response to a sustainable business case. There were other factors which killed off branchline railways, not the least of them being overstaffing. Nostalgia sites are full of black and white photos of country stations, with the stationmaster and half a dozen other staff alongside him. This while there were probably less people than that on the trains. The rail unions tolerance of overstaffing and resistance to staff reductions played its part in the demise of these lines.

You seem to have a thing about posters' locations, while gleefully spending the Scottish rail budget from Yorkshire. Since I am from Edinburgh I can immediately nail your totally irrelevant comparison of Edinburgh- Tweedbank and Hawick-Carlisle. Edinburgh-Tweedbank passes through sizeable commuting communities south of Edinburgh, as well as serving the town of Galashiels (population 15,000 - just slightly less than Ripon). Hawick-Carlisle passes through a few villages, the largest of which, Newcastleton, has a population of 772, and a lot of pretty but empty, moorland. And you think there's no problem with a £1billion reinstatement project? And even assuming there is a need for another diversionary North South line, it's totally unacceptable to base the business case for a reopening on potential use for diversions.

In the real world, we can't be funding the transportation of fresh air, at the expense of communities (possibly even your community) that need and can sustain a rail connection.

Don't be ridiculous. I do not have a 'thing', whatever that is, about posters locations apart from how many posters who are so negative and critical about rail reinstatement actually live in rail connected settlements. Why keep their location secret as most don't.
Not spending your money but my money. If I remember correctly, it is my taxes as you have the advantage of £1,300 per head more in Scotland than in Yorkshire.
I am fully aware of the geography of the Borders line, I used it throughout only two weeks ago and used it regularly pre 1969 to visit family in Inverkeithing in preference to travel via Beattock and Carstairs that is also pretty empty. Hawick is nearer to Carlisle than Edinburgh and would be less than an hour from Carlisle if reinstated.
Transporting fresh air has become a very tiresome phrase. Fresh air is transported even on a full train.

 

[Altnabreac]

Don't be ridiculous. I do not have a 'thing', whatever that is, about posters locations apart from how many posters who are so negative and critical about rail reinstatement actually live in rail connected settlements. Why keep their location secret as most don't.
Not spending your money but my money. If I remember correctly, it is my taxes as you have the advantage of £1,300 per head more in Scotland than in Yorkshire.
I am fully aware of the geography of the Borders line, I used it throughout only two weeks ago and used it regularly pre 1969 to visit family in Inverkeithing in preference to travel via Beattock and Carstairs that is also pretty empty. Hawick is nearer to Carlisle than Edinburgh and would be less than an hour from Carlisle if reinstated.
Transporting fresh air has become a very tiresome phrase. Fresh air is transported even on a full train.

But who is ever going to travel between Hawick and Carlisle. Virtually no one from Hawick works in Carlisle (Only 35 people from Scottish Borders council area work in Carlisle district, probably Newcastleton folk). There just isn't any demand whatsoever. It's a nonsense of an idea.

 

[deltic08]

How on earth can it be favourable. The line doesn't serve any settlements of more than 1,000 people would cost hundreds of millions of pounds and be much slower than the alternative through route for Edinburgh - Carlisle traffic.

Scottish Government is funding a study of possible road and rail interventions in the Borders. I can absolutely guarantee that no rail line south of Hawick will ever reopen.

That is a very sweeping statement. I must ask my friends David Spaven and Bill Jamieson their reaction to it. You are very sure of yourself without any facts. I have read that Carlisle City/Cumbria County Councils and Transport for the North are very supportive. Not all the route is within Scotland. If it is feasible, are you prepared to eat your words?
Do you have the same attitude towards reopening East Linton and Reston stations and an Edinburgh-Berwick stopping service?
By the way, do you live in a rail connected city, town or village?

 

[deltic08]

But who is ever going to travel between Hawick and Carlisle. Virtually no one from Hawick works in Carlisle (Only 35 people from Scottish Borders council area work in Carlisle district, probably Newcastleton folk). There just isn't any demand whatsoever. It's a nonsense of an idea.

Probably because the A7 is such a pain to drive daily. Who knows how many would prefer to live in Scotland and work in Carlisle once a fast railway was open. Isn't this the point of a demand forecast as part of a feasibility study?

 

[47271]

I think that we're going round in circles with this, and not for the first time.

Can I ask if there are any old routes that Deltic08 wouldn't reopen, that might help us narrow things down a bit, and maybe even get us to consider setting a budget for this massive infrastructure programme?

If it helps calm the debate, I'm very happy to reveal to the thread that I live on Speyside - and call me selfish, but for the record I'd like to see investment in the Highland Main Line and Ladybank-Perth way ahead of some of the more marginal schemes under discussion here...

 

[Altnabreac]

That is a very sweeping statement. I must ask my friends David Spaven and Bill Jamieson their reaction to it. You are very sure of yourself without any facts. I have read that Carlisle City/Cumbria County Councils and Transport for the North are very supportive. Not all the route is within Scotland. If it is feasible, are you prepared to eat your words?
Do you have the same attitude towards reopening East Linton and Reston stations and an Edinburgh-Berwick stopping service?
By the way, do you live in a rail connected city, town or village?

East Linton probably has a reasonable business case although I'd be cautious until I saw the effects of timetabling more stops there. Probably worth doing.

Reston is a much more questionable reopening, given that it needs an additional service, is further from Edinburgh and has a smaller population. The upsides for it are the large hinterland and the fact that it services an area that is otherwise poorly served by rail. I suspect the economic business case for it on it's own is poor but can see wider political and regeneration reasons that may justify it. 50/50 at best but no strong objection from me.

Hawick - Tweedbank again probably is a marginal case but I can see Regeneration and connectivity benefits. Wouldn't be top of my list of Scottish rail reopenings but would make the top ten.

David Spaven is a lovely bloke and has done excellent work in getting the Borders Rail line where it is today. However on the particular matter of Hawick - Carlisle he is wedded to nostalgically reopening a line that has absolutely no prospect of being successful in the modern era and I would encourage him to think more carefully about it. Spending hundreds of millions on a line that will have no passengers would be an utter waste of money compared to a whole host of other potential rail investments in Scotland. I could name 10-15 rail reopenings with business cases at least 10 times better than Hawick - Carlisle.

As to my place of residence I posted a video up thread showing you where I stay.

 

[snowball]

Who knows how many would prefer to live in Scotland and work in Carlisle once a fast railway was open. Isn't this the point of a demand forecast as part of a feasibility study?

Unlikely to be in enough numbers to justify a new rail line. There aren't enough people in Carlisle to start with for it to be plausible that a sufficient number would move out into largely nonexistent villages between Longtown and Hawick.

Also I rather doubt that it would be a "fast" railway.

 

[Starmill]

East Linton probably has a reasonable business case although I'd be cautious until I saw the effects of timetabling more stops there. Probably worth doing.

Reston is a much more questionable reopening, given that it needs an additional service, is further from Edinburgh and has a smaller population. The upsides for it are the large hinterland and the fact that it services an area that is otherwise poorly served by rail. I suspect the economic business case for it on it's own is poor but can see wider political and regeneration reasons that may justify it. 50/50 at best but no strong objection from me.

Both stations require a significant number of extra paths. Neither business case would stack up with just 4 services per day!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However on the particular matter of Hawick - Carlisle he is wedded to nostalgically reopening a line that has absolutely no prospect of being successful in the modern era and I would encourage him to think more carefully about it. Spending hundreds of millions on a line that will have no passengers would be an utter waste of money compared to a whole host of other potential rail investments in Scotland.

A diversionary route is thus basically its only usefulness? I suppose it would then be argued why not do Carlisle-Newcastle-Edinburgh if diversions are necessary. Or even Carlisle -Dumfries- Kilmarnock - Glasgow Central - reverse and onto Edinburgh/or other route I am no longer aware of?

 

[Altnabreac]

I think that we're going round in circles with this, and not for the first time.

Can I ask if there are any old routes that Deltic08 wouldn't reopen, that might help us narrow things down a bit, and maybe even get us to consider setting a budget for this massive infrastructure programme?

If it helps calm the debate, I'm very happy to reveal to the thread that I live on Speyside - and call me selfish, but for the record I'd like to see investment in the Highland Main Line and Ladybank-Perth way ahead of some of the more marginal schemes under discussion here...

Here's a list of 15 potential Scottish reopening schemes, 15 station reopenings on existing lines, 10 potential new rail lines and 20 major rail enhancements on existing Scottish lines. I'm by no means in favour of all of these schemes going ahead but I'd challenge deltic08 to identify which if any of these would have a worse business case than Hawick - Carlisle?

15 vaguely plausible re-openings in Scotland
Levenmouth
Grangemouth
Penicuik
Hawick
Banchory
Dyce - Ellon
Ellon - Peterhead
Bridge of Weir
Renfrew
Edinburgh South Sub
Alloa - Dunfermline
Glasgow Crossrail (City Union line)
St Andrews
Oldmeldrum
Lossiemouth
Stonehouse / Strathaven
Newmains

15 vaguely plausible new stations on existing passenger lines in Scotland

Dalcross
Kintore
Dundee West / Invergowrie
Oudenarde (Bridge of Earn)
East Linton
Reston
Winchburgh
Robroyston
Ravenscraig
Auchenback
Newburgh
Bonnybridge
Cambus
Eastriggs
Bannockburn

10 vaguely plausible new alignment rail lines in Scotland
Dalmeny Chord
Inverkeithing - Halbeath
Cross Glasgow tunnel
Halbeath - Bridge of Earn
Bridge of Earn - St Madoes
HSR Edinburgh - Glasgow
HSR EG - Fife link
ECML HSR Edinburgh - England
WCML HSR Central Belt - England
Glasgow Airport Rail Link

20 vaguely plausible major rail investments on existing lines in Scotland
Rolling programme of electrification
Highland Main Line - more double track / dynamic loops
Usan doubling
Ladybank - Hilton junction doubling
Prestonpans - Drem 4 tracking
Abbeyhill - Portobello enhancements
Grantshouse loop improvements
Further Aberdeen - Inverness improvements
Cowdenbeath - Thornton line speed improvements
Perth - Dundee line speed improvements (level crossing closures?)
Winchburgh Junction grade separation
Edinburgh Waverley further capacity enhancements
Glasgow Central further capacity enhancements
Carstairs junction improvements
Greenhill Grade Separation
Partick - Hyndland improvements and partial 4 tracking
Dunblane - Perth enhancements
Perth station remodelling
Dynamic loop between Inverness and Dingwall
Georgemas Chord

 

[route101]

A diversionary route is thus basically its only usefulness? I suppose it would then be argued why not do Carlisle-Newcastle-Edinburgh if diversions are necessary. Or even Carlisle -Dumfries- Kilmarnock - Glasgow Central - reverse and onto Edinburgh/or other route I am no longer aware of?

Some trains have done Edinburgh - Kilmarnock - Carlisle im sure , uses line from near Polmadie that connects near Crossmyloof

 

[JohnR]

Here's a list of 15 potential Scottish reopening schemes, 15 station reopenings on existing lines, 10 potential new rail lines and 20 major rail enhancements on existing Scottish lines. I'm by no means in favour of all of these schemes going ahead but I'd challenge deltic08 to identify which if any of these would have a worse business case than Hawick - Carlisle?

15 vaguely plausible re-openings in Scotland
Levenmouth
Grangemouth
Penicuik
Hawick
Banchory
Dyce - Ellon
Ellon - Peterhead
Bridge of Weir
Renfrew
Edinburgh South Sub
Alloa - Dunfermline
Glasgow Crossrail (City Union line)
St Andrews
Oldmeldrum
Lossiemouth
Stonehouse / Strathaven
Newmains

15 vaguely plausible new stations on existing passenger lines in Scotland

Dalcross
Kintore
Dundee West / Invergowrie
Oudenarde (Bridge of Earn)
East Linton
Reston
Winchburgh
Robroyston
Ravenscraig
Auchenback
Newburgh
Bonnybridge
Cambus
Eastriggs
Bannockburn

10 vaguely plausible new alignment rail lines in Scotland
Dalmeny Chord
Inverkeithing - Halbeath
Cross Glasgow tunnel
Halbeath - Bridge of Earn
Bridge of Earn - St Madoes
HSR Edinburgh - Glasgow
HSR EG - Fife link
ECML HSR Edinburgh - England
WCML HSR Central Belt - England
Glasgow Airport Rail Link

20 vaguely plausible major rail investments on existing lines in Scotland
Rolling programme of electrification
Highland Main Line - more double track / dynamic loops
Usan doubling
Ladybank - Hilton junction doubling
Prestonpans - Drem 4 tracking
Abbeyhill - Portobello enhancements
Grantshouse loop improvements
Further Aberdeen - Inverness improvements
Cowdenbeath - Thornton line speed improvements
Perth - Dundee line speed improvements (level crossing closures?)
Winchburgh Junction grade separation
Edinburgh Waverley further capacity enhancements
Glasgow Central further capacity enhancements
Carstairs junction improvements
Greenhill Grade Separation
Partick - Hyndland improvements and partial 4 tracking
Dunblane - Perth enhancements
Perth station remodelling
Dynamic loop between Inverness and Dingwall
Georgemas Chord

I think thats quite a reasonable list, and I dont think anyone could argue that those examples are worth looking at in serious detail. I think most people would struggle to add more than one or two to that list that are as compelling.

 

[clc]

The Botanics line could also make the list of plausible reopenings.

 

[NotATrainspott]

deltic08, the problem is that reopening these lines today, regardless of whether it was ever a good idea to close them in the first place, would require some amount of government investment. Governments can and will invest in lines and projects which have a halfway reasonable business case. With some politicking, they may even do it for lines which have a very marginal or even slightly bad business case (c.f. the Borders Railway, done primarily as a political favour for the Lib Dems during the original coalition Scottish Executives). What they will not do is invest in a line which has essentially no business case whatsoever, and that's unfortunately the case for many of the lines that are suggested here and sometimes by more prominent public voices. It is not about disliking people living in certain regions of Scotland. It is that spending money on one specific thing - building a railway line - would most certainly do much less for the people living there than any number of alternative investments. The people living in Newcastleton would almost certainly rather have a small proportion of the money that could be spent on reopening Tweedbank/Hawick to Carlisle on things like better schools, hospitals or roads for them.

There's nothing wrong with people like myself not revealing where we live on this forum. If you put in enough effort you could probably work it out, based on the topics we seem to involve ourselves in the most. I mean, it wouldn't take people a lot to work out that I live in Scotland and have access to the electrified railway. That somewhat narrows it down already.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Botanics line could also make the list of plausible reopenings.

Only as light rail. Still heavily plausible though. The Strathclyde Tram route from Maryhill to Easterhouse was an official SPT project in the 90s, so it's actually well ahead of many of the other suggested schemes.

 

[daodao]

Here's a list of 15 potential Scottish reopening schemes, 15 station reopenings on existing lines, 10 potential new rail lines and 20 major rail enhancements on existing Scottish lines. I'm by no means in favour of all of these schemes going ahead but I'd challenge deltic08 to identify which if any of these would have a worse business case than Hawick - Carlisle?

15 vaguely plausible re-openings in Scotland
Levenmouth
Grangemouth
Penicuik
Hawick
Banchory
Dyce - Ellon
Ellon - Peterhead
Bridge of Weir
Renfrew
Edinburgh South Sub
Alloa - Dunfermline
Glasgow Crossrail (City Union line)
St Andrews
Oldmeldrum
Lossiemouth
Stonehouse / Strathaven
Newmains

15 vaguely plausible new stations on existing passenger lines in Scotland

Dalcross
Kintore
Dundee West / Invergowrie
Oudenarde (Bridge of Earn)
East Linton
Reston
Winchburgh
Robroyston
Ravenscraig
Auchenback
Newburgh
Bonnybridge
Cambus
Eastriggs
Bannockburn

10 vaguely plausible new alignment rail lines in Scotland
Dalmeny Chord
Inverkeithing - Halbeath
Cross Glasgow tunnel
Halbeath - Bridge of Earn
Bridge of Earn - St Madoes
HSR Edinburgh - Glasgow
HSR EG - Fife link
ECML HSR Edinburgh - England
WCML HSR Central Belt - England
Glasgow Airport Rail Link

20 vaguely plausible major rail investments on existing lines in Scotland
Rolling programme of electrification
Highland Main Line - more double track / dynamic loops
Usan doubling
Ladybank - Hilton junction doubling
Prestonpans - Drem 4 tracking
Abbeyhill - Portobello enhancements
Grantshouse loop improvements
Further Aberdeen - Inverness improvements
Cowdenbeath - Thornton line speed improvements
Perth - Dundee line speed improvements (level crossing closures?)
Winchburgh Junction grade separation
Edinburgh Waverley further capacity enhancements
Glasgow Central further capacity enhancements
Carstairs junction improvements
Greenhill Grade Separation
Partick - Hyndland improvements and partial 4 tracking
Dunblane - Perth enhancements
Perth station remodelling
Dynamic loop between Inverness and Dingwall
Georgemas Chord

A sensible list. I appreciate your reasoned arguments on this forum. Passenger rail re-openings that serve major urban areas are generally much better value than re-opening of rural routes.

Deltic08 should focus on trying to re-open his local line from Harrogate to Ripon, for which there may well be a reasonable business case according to your criteria, given the frequent route 36 bus service (double-deckers every 15-20 minutes) between these 2 points, and the commuting potential to Leeds.

Would there be any merit in running a regular semi-fast "Dundee regional Metro" service from St.Andrews to Brechin, with stops at Leuchars Junction, St.Fort, Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie, Arbroath, Montrose, Dubton and Bridge of Dun?

 

[GusB]

Here's a list of 15 potential Scottish reopening schemes, 15 station reopenings on existing lines, 10 potential new rail lines and 20 major rail enhancements on existing Scottish lines. I'm by no means in favour of all of these schemes going ahead but I'd challenge deltic08 to identify which if any of these would have a worse business case than Hawick - Carlisle?

15 vaguely plausible re-openings in Scotland
Levenmouth
Grangemouth
Penicuik
Hawick
Banchory
Dyce - Ellon
Ellon - Peterhead
Bridge of Weir
Renfrew
Edinburgh South Sub
Alloa - Dunfermline
Glasgow Crossrail (City Union line)
St Andrews
Oldmeldrum
Lossiemouth
Stonehouse / Strathaven
Newmains

<snip>

@Altnabreac I'm interested to find out why you've included Lossiemouth on your list. I wouldn't have thought that the population of Lossiemouth (c.7000) would have been sufficient to warrant the re-opening of the line. There's very little industry for freight, and the fishing is long gone. While from a purely nostalgic point of view I would love to see it happen, I can't really see much of a case for it. In its favour, most of the track bed is intact - a few buildings on an industrial estate would have to go, as would Burger King. The East Road level crossing would need to be re-instated as well, unless there was a completely new alignment.