Expired railcard - best grounds for appeal

[womblingfree]

Yesterday, 13 April 2024, I travelled from London Paddington to Oxford on GWR. I bought my ticket on the Trainline app at the station before travel. I had bought a Network Railcard on the Trainline app previously, so the railcard was stored and the discount applied to my fare automatically and I paid £22 for the return journey, discounted from £33.30.

On arrival at Oxford the barriers were teeming with Revenue Protection Officers. I showed my ticket, was asked to show my railcard. The officer showed me how to pull up the railcard on the app as I wasn't sure, and found it had expired on 5 April 2024. A week ago.

I was issued with a £100 fine plus the cost of the full fare of £33.30. I paid on the spot so the fine was halved to £50. £88.30 in total. I also renewed my railcard on the spot so I could be sure my return journey was valid.

The person issuing the fine checked my journey history on the app and could see this was the first time I had travelled since the railcard expired.

I accept my error but I plan to appeal on the grounds that the fine is disproportionate and unfair, and here are my thoughts:

- Honest mistake, no intention to deceive or evade capture
- Fine is disproportionate as it would be the same if I had deliberately tried to dodge the fare. In fact, I paid more than a deliberate fare dodger as I had already paid for a £22 ticket
- Received no alerts from Trainline that my railcard had expired; not GWR's responsibility, but Trainline's T&Cs state that they will let you know when your railcard is due so I was relying on them in good faith (goes back to the honest mistake part).
- Railcard had only been expired one week and this was the first time I'd used it since expiry; again disproportionate as the fine is the same if I'd have let it lapse for months
- GWR policy states "We want to make sure everyone who travels with GWR pays the right fare for their trip. Our Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Policy helps us protect the customers who do, and deal with the customers who don’t firmly and fairly." However, journey history on the app showed I am a customer who does except for this one error; I was not given the opportunity by them to pay the right fare; this fine does not feel fair.

What do people think? Is there a good adaptable template for such appeals? Is there anything else I should consider? Was paying the fine on the spot a stupid thing to do?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate incident and it seems as though you were issued with a Penalty Fare.

A Penalty Fare is a higher fare charged to people who do not comply with the normal ticket purchasing rules, which is appropriate in a case like yours. It can be considered similar to getting a parking ticket. In many ways being given a Penalty Fare is a favourable outcome as we see several cases like this where details are taken and passed to the Prosecutions Department for investigation. While these cases are normally resolved out of court they can involve considerable stress and an out of court settlement often costs more than a Penalty Fare.

There is nothing to stop you from appealing the Penalty Fare but ordinarily I would not expect an appeal to be successful. That said, for a Penalty Fare to be valid notices have to be displayed that contain a very specific form of wording, specified by law. Often the notices are deficient so an appeal on these technical grounds might appeal. I will let others comment on these technicalities but these sort of appeals never seem to succeed untli they reach the final (third) appeal stage.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Think of the penalty fare as similar to a speeding fine or parking ticket for overstaying or not having a ticket at all. It's probably not that disproportionate when put like that. The fact is you didn't have a valid ticket and were caught. You're actually quite lucky that you were caught the first time. Some people are caught after several journeys, and end up paying a lot more.

So I'd take it on the chin, and not bother appealing, as I think there is zero chance of it being rescinded.

 

[AlterEgo]

The only valid grounds of appeal are around the signage at your origin station, and the notice. If you could upload the notice with your details redacted we can see if it has been filled in correctly. They often aren’t!

 

[MotCO]

- Received no alerts from Trainline that my railcard had expired; not GWR's responsibility, but Trainline's T&Cs state that they will let you know when your railcard is due so I was relying on them in good faith (goes back to the honest mistake part).
-

Is this the case? Other posters have asked why the vendors of railcards do not remind them when they expire, and I don't remember Trainline being one of those that do - it may just be my memory

Nonetheless, you can do yourself a favour and set a reminder on your phone when your new railcard is about to expire so that you can renew it in good time.

 

[methecooldude]

Is this the case? Other posters have asked why the vendors of railcards do not remind them when they expire, and I don't remember Trainline being one of those that do - it may just be my memory

Nonetheless, you can do yourself a favour and set a reminder on your phone when your new railcard is about to expire so that you can renew it in good time.

No, no it isn't, it's not anywhere in Trainlines T&Cs, I would invite the OP to show where it is

 

[WesternLancer]

Yesterday, 13 April 2024, I travelled from London Paddington to Oxford on GWR. I bought my ticket on the Trainline app at the station before travel. I had bought a Network Railcard on the Trainline app previously, so the railcard was stored and the discount applied to my fare automatically and I paid £22 for the return journey, discounted from £33.30.

On arrival at Oxford the barriers were teeming with Revenue Protection Officers. I showed my ticket, was asked to show my railcard. The officer showed me how to pull up the railcard on the app as I wasn't sure, and found it had expired on 5 April 2024. A week ago.

I was issued with a £100 fine plus the cost of the full fare of £33.30. I paid on the spot so the fine was halved to £50. £88.30 in total. I also renewed my railcard on the spot so I could be sure my return journey was valid.

The person issuing the fine checked my journey history on the app and could see this was the first time I had travelled since the railcard expired.

I accept my error but I plan to appeal on the grounds that the fine is disproportionate and unfair, and here are my thoughts:

- Honest mistake, no intention to deceive or evade capture
- Fine is disproportionate as it would be the same if I had deliberately tried to dodge the fare. In fact, I paid more than a deliberate fare dodger as I had already paid for a £22 ticket
- Received no alerts from Trainline that my railcard had expired; not GWR's responsibility, but Trainline's T&Cs state that they will let you know when your railcard is due so I was relying on them in good faith (goes back to the honest mistake part).
- Railcard had only been expired one week and this was the first time I'd used it since expiry; again disproportionate as the fine is the same if I'd have let it lapse for months
- GWR policy states "We want to make sure everyone who travels with GWR pays the right fare for their trip. Our Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Policy helps us protect the customers who do, and deal with the customers who don’t firmly and fairly." However, journey history on the app showed I am a customer who does except for this one error; I was not given the opportunity by them to pay the right fare; this fine does not feel fair.

What do people think? Is there a good adaptable template for such appeals? Is there anything else I should consider? Was paying the fine on the spot a stupid thing to do?

Thank you in advance.

For an appeal to succeed I believe your need to find criteria in the penalty fares regulations that create the criteria that the penalty was not due or incorrectly applied to the circumstances you had. I do not think that the proportionality of the sum or the penalty will be one of those criteria. So an appeal on that basis, or that it was unfair will not work on my view. But there is no harm in giving it a try.

 

[furlong]

Paddington's Penalty Fares signage doesn't come anywhere close to meeting the requirements of the regulations, so you should appeal on those grounds.

You'll find the appeal harder for them to get wrong if you look back at what platform you left Paddington from and if you travel through the station again, take some pictures to include with your appeal showing how the route you took through the station to your platform doesn't comply. (Compliance is a simple matter of fact - a station as a whole either complies allowing PFs to be issued or it does not. It doesn't depend on your actual route through the station, but it can only help your case to show them this specifically, as they tend to work off what they wish the regulations had said rather than what they actually do.)

 

[Class93]

Yesterday, 13 April 2024, I travelled from London Paddington to Oxford on GWR. I bought my ticket on the Trainline app at the station before travel. I had bought a Network Railcard on the Trainline app previously, so the railcard was stored and the discount applied to my fare automatically and I paid £22 for the return journey, discounted from £33.30.

On arrival at Oxford the barriers were teeming with Revenue Protection Officers. I showed my ticket, was asked to show my railcard. The officer showed me how to pull up the railcard on the app as I wasn't sure, and found it had expired on 5 April 2024. A week ago.

I was issued with a £100 fine plus the cost of the full fare of £33.30. I paid on the spot so the fine was halved to £50. £88.30 in total. I also renewed my railcard on the spot so I could be sure my return journey was valid.

The person issuing the fine checked my journey history on the app and could see this was the first time I had travelled since the railcard expired.

I accept my error but I plan to appeal on the grounds that the fine is disproportionate and unfair, and here are my thoughts:

- Honest mistake, no intention to deceive or evade capture
- Fine is disproportionate as it would be the same if I had deliberately tried to dodge the fare. In fact, I paid more than a deliberate fare dodger as I had already paid for a £22 ticket
- Received no alerts from Trainline that my railcard had expired; not GWR's responsibility, but Trainline's T&Cs state that they will let you know when your railcard is due so I was relying on them in good faith (goes back to the honest mistake part).
- Railcard had only been expired one week and this was the first time I'd used it since expiry; again disproportionate as the fine is the same if I'd have let it lapse for months
- GWR policy states "We want to make sure everyone who travels with GWR pays the right fare for their trip. Our Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Policy helps us protect the customers who do, and deal with the customers who don’t firmly and fairly." However, journey history on the app showed I am a customer who does except for this one error; I was not given the opportunity by them to pay the right fare; this fine does not feel fair.

What do people think? Is there a good adaptable template for such appeals? Is there anything else I should consider? Was paying the fine on the spot a stupid thing to do?

Thank you in advance.

I think the best advice is to chalk it down to experience. It’s done, an appeal can’t simply be pointing fingers elsewhere except you, when you haven’t kept up to date with your railcard. It’s fair and square to me.

It’s entirely reasonable for you to make sure you know when it runs out; as you would with an MOT or car tax or a pay and display parking ticket, or anything else that has a expectation of personal responsibility.

 

[kristiang85]

I think the best advice is to chalk it down to experience. It’s done, an appeal can’t simply be pointing fingers elsewhere except you, when you haven’t kept up to date with your railcard. It’s fair and square to me.

It’s entirely reasonable for you to make sure you know when it runs out; as you would with an MOT or car tax or a pay and display parking ticket, or anything else that has a expectation of personal responsibility.

Fair enough (and I'm one of those people who puts expiry dates in my calendar as I don't trust auto reminders), but given all forms of insurance seem to spam you for renewal reminders, and even Specsavers keeps emailing me every week saying my biannual eye test is overdue, it's not unreasonable to expect an online Railcard renewal to have reminders.

Trainline are the root cause of so many problems reported on this forum (I've always avoided them like the plague anyway), and it angers me that they are now so heavily advertised in my area, even with stickers on the ticket barriers in SWR land where I live. It makes them look like the legitimate overall ticket booking service to the non frequent user, which they are not. There has to be a point where they must be held accountable for so many of the customer-unfriendly practices that seem to benefit the railway. Especially where they add expired railcards automatically to bookings.

 

[furlong]

I think the best advice is to chalk it down to experience. It’s done, an appeal can’t simply be pointing fingers elsewhere except you, when you haven’t kept up to date with your railcard. It’s fair and square to me.

The other side of the argument is that we see an arrogant railway picking and choosing which regulations to follow and which ones to disregard.

The passenger has already paid twice for this journey (and isn't going to get that back even if they win the appeal). Isn't that enough? (Why didn't the railway just let them backdate the forgotten railcard renewal instead?)

Why should they also have to pay a £50 penalty on top when the train company can't even get its act together to meet its side of the bargain by providing the signage prescribed by the regulations?

 

[Starmill]

I think the best advice is to chalk it down to experience.

Best for the rail operator and the government, sure. But they are advised by their very expensive lawyers and accountants, and don't need any assistance following the law as it stands. This forum is about sharing information for the benefit of the individual consumer, as a counterweight to their relative lack of information and resources compared to the weight of a very large firm and the Department.

Why should they also have to pay a £50 penalty on top when the train company can't even get its act together to meet its side of the bargain by providing the signage prescribed by the regulations?

The Regulation has been written specifically to be quite easy and cheap for the operators to follow. It's super basic stuff and very easily complied with.

 

[womblingfree]

Think of the penalty fare as similar to a speeding fine

Shan't. Speeding is a deliberate act with potentially fatal consequences. Nothing like accidentally forgetting your railcard had expired at all. If I'd been caught speeding I'd have said it was a fair cop.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Shan't. Speeding is a deliberate act with potentially fatal consequences. Nothing like accidentally forgetting your railcard had expired at all. If I'd been caught speeding I'd have said it was a fair cop.

I disagree about it always being a deliberate act. It's all too easy for your speed to creep up above the limit, or you don't notice a step down in the limit, or you didn't notice on a controlled motorway that after passing 60 signs for several miles the next one reads 50. So in that sense, I see a strong parallel with someone who's railcard expired last week and didn't notice. (And I say this as someone who has driven for over 40 years and not had a speeding offence against my name once. But I've certainly had those moments of "Oh gawd, I'm going above the limit" and immediately slowed down.)

 

[womblingfree]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate incident and it seems as though you were issued with a Penalty Fare.

A Penalty Fare is a higher fare charged to people who do not comply with the normal ticket purchasing rules, which is appropriate in a case like yours. It can be considered similar to getting a parking ticket. In many ways being given a Penalty Fare is a favourable outcome as we see several cases like this where details are taken and passed to the Prosecutions Department for investigation. While these cases are normally resolved out of court they can involve considerable stress and an out of court settlement often costs more than a Penalty Fare.

There is nothing to stop you from appealing the Penalty Fare but ordinarily I would not expect an appeal to be successful. That said, for a Penalty Fare to be valid notices have to be displayed that contain a very specific form of wording, specified by law. Often the notices are deficient so an appeal on these technical grounds might appeal. I will let others comment on these technicalities but these sort of appeals never seem to succeed untli they reach the final (third) appeal stage.

Thank you - this and several other replies have given me some much needed clarity. I'm going to proceed on the grounds that I'm interested to see where it goes, but I will probably go along the technicality of lack of signage/forewarning. I don't think my chances are good but I don't think they're nil either.

I won't miss the £83.30, it's more of an annoyance. But when I think of the dire financial cicrumstances of a lot of decent and honest people, many of whom wouldn't have been able to pay up front so would have faced the full £100+, it makes me a bit cross on their behalf.

Is this the case? Other posters have asked why the vendors of railcards do not remind them when they expire, and I don't remember Trainline being one of those that do - it may just be my memory

Nonetheless, you can do yourself a favour and set a reminder on your phone when your new railcard is about to expire so that you can renew it in good time.

I'm trying to find the page I saw yesterday where this was stated - I was possibly wrong to say it was in the T&Cs but it was somewhere on their site. I've also found them say it on twitter/X. It's moot anyway, as this is not GWR's problem and I'm not taking on Trainline. But given how many people appear to have been caught out this way, I think they should be doing something. I like the Trainline app - I often buy tickets in a hurry when I'm at the station as my trips are often last-minute. I find the Trainline app the easiest and quickest way to do that so it would be a shame if a feature like this couldn't be improved.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I bought my ticket on the Trainline app at the station before travel. I had bought a Network Railcard on the Trainline app previously, so the railcard was stored and the discount applied to my fare automatically and I paid £22 for the return journey, discounted from £33.30.

Please do complain to Trainline. From the screenshot you are clearly not the first to be caught by this trap. Even if they do tell you your card is about to expire, (and it seems they are not reliable in this aspect) they should not automatically apply the discount after it had expired - you could request it, if for example you had renewed another way, or were buying for someone else.

Your complaint is with Trainline, not GWR. If they automatically applied a discount despite the relevant railcard having expired, they sold you the wrong ticket, and they are at fault. It is irrelevant whether or not they had promised, and failed, to send you a reminder.

Trainline is an independent company, and nothing to do with GWR or any other TOC. You are in the same position as if you had unwittingly bought a fake passport from a scammer. Do yoursdelf a favour and cut out the middle man next time

 

[AlterEgo]

The only valid grounds of appeal are around the signage at your origin station, and the notice. If you could upload the notice with your details redacted we can see if it has been filled in correctly. They often aren’t!

This still stands and is likely the best chance you have of appealing @womblingfree - if you want to mount an appeal based on signage without reading the regulations or collecting any evidence of the lack of complicit signage you won’t go anywhere. “Didn’t see the sign” isn’t grounds for an appeal; the signage being non-complaint (and this is very technical), is.

 

[Brissle Girl]

For info, where we've seen an appeal including the signage technicality has been accepted, it's always (I believe) been accepted on another ground, rather than conceding that the signage is wrong. We have a suspicion that is deliberate, to avoid setting a precedent that could open the floodgates to a reversal of every PF issued over the last couple of years.

So you need to appeal on more than just the signage. Even if other reasons are weak, they might be accepted to avoid having to concede the signage point explicitly.

 

[womblingfree]

This still stands and is likely the best chance you have of appealing @womblingfree - if you want to mount an appeal based on signage without reading the regulations or collecting any evidence of the lack of complicit signage you won’t go anywhere. “Didn’t see the sign” isn’t grounds for an appeal; the signage being non-complaint (and this is very technical), is.

Any idea where I can see a case that sets a precedent here? I don't know this particular area of the law, but my former career in national newspaper journalism means I'm no slouch when it comes to picking apart this stuff.

I also wondered whether the fact my ticket enabled me to pass through the barriers at Paddington without the validity being checked essentially gave me permission to travel - Regulation 6 (2)(d) of the Penalty Fares Regulations might apply?

This really has become more about my interest in the technical aspects of penalty fares now, I've already forgotten about the money

 

[Brissle Girl]

I also wondered whether the fact my ticket enabled me to pass through the barriers at Paddington without the validity being checked essentially gave me permission to travel - Regulation 6 (2)(d) of the Penalty Fares Regulations might apply?

No, I don't think that would give you grounds to appeal, although I see why you think it might.

 

[Starmill]

I disagree about it always being a deliberate act. It's all too easy for your speed to creep up above the limit, or you don't notice a step down in the limit, or you didn't notice on a controlled motorway that after passing 60 signs for several miles the next one reads 50. So in that sense, I see a strong parallel with someone who's railcard expired last week and didn't notice. (And I say this as someone who has driven for over 40 years and not had a speeding offence against my name once. But I've certainly had those moments of "Oh gawd, I'm going above the limit" and immediately slowed down.)

I think a careful driver would be stopping themselves from driving before they're at risk of those moments of lapse in concentration. Driving a motor vehicle requires a licence and is a special privilege which is not available to everyone. Travelling by rail isn't.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I think a careful driver would be stopping themselves from driving before they're at risk of those moments of lapse in concentration. Driving a motor vehicle requires a licence and is a special privilege which is not available to everyone. Travelling by rail isn't.

Well as I said, I've been careful enough not to have had an accident, or a speeding ticket in over 40 years, but will admit that occasionally I find myself having to bring my speed back below the limit. So if your definition of a careful driver is someone who has never accidentally strayed above the speed limit, I think there will be a minutely small number of people that meet your definition. I'll leave it there.

 

[pedr]

There are, effectively, no precedents in the treatment of Penalty Fares. Appeals panels make each decision independently without publishing them or referencing others, and the courts don’t get involved - at least not to the level where they set even persuasive precedent.

However there are a few threads here with examples of third-stage appeals which have been successful particularly where issues with the precise compliance of signs and signage at stations are raised alongside other (perhaps legalistically weaker) points.

Arguing that allowing someone to pass a ticket line is equivalent to giving permission to travel without a valid ticket is not likely to work, however. The law is written to be very favourable to the train companies here (and in many respects issuing a Penalty Fare here was in your favour as many passengers in your position are pursued for larger sums with the risk of prosecution if they don’t pay). The closer car-related situation is accidentally failing to renew car insurance rather than speeding, which is equally almost impossible to defend against where it is the driver’s negligence that led to the lapse in cover.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Any idea where I can see a case that sets a precedent here?

If the signage at the station doesn't comply with the PF regulations, you don't need to refer to a precedent to make an appeal. You simply need to show the non-compliance of the signage.

As has been said, the appeals panel likes to find other reasons than signage to uphold an appeal. If you can't cite those other grounds yourself they will often invent them for you.

If you want to pursue this, I would familiarise yourself with the signage requirements in the regulations and compare with the actual signage at the station where you boarded the train.

 

[scrapy]

For info, where we've seen an appeal including the signage technicality has been accepted, it's always (I believe) been accepted on another ground, rather than conceding that the signage is wrong. We have a suspicion that is deliberate, to avoid setting a precedent that could open the floodgates to a reversal of every PF issued over the last couple of years.

So you need to appeal on more than just the signage. Even if other reasons are weak, they might be accepted to avoid having to concede the signage point explicitly.

That's really weird, I recently appealed a penalty fare on behalf of someone based on the signage being incorrect. The appeal was successful at the second go, the reason given for the appeal being successful was 'due to the machine not functioning correctly' even though I believe the machine was working correctly and wasn't even mentioned in the appeal. So it really is worth the OP appealing if they believe the signage to be incorrectly sited or worded.

 

[womblingfree]

No, I don't think that would give you grounds to appeal, although I see why you think it might.

Any reason?

This still stands and is likely the best chance you have of appealing @womblingfree - if you want to mount an appeal based on signage without reading the regulations or collecting any evidence of the lack of complicit signage you won’t go anywhere. “Didn’t see the sign” isn’t grounds for an appeal; the signage being non-complaint (and this is very technical), is.

I've had a good look at the notice and I really can't see any fault with how it's issued. I might talk to one of my lawyer friends to get their view though.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Any reason?

We've seen enough cases where this issue has been raised. Either that a ticket has gone through a gateline or even been checked by another member of staff, and the invalidity of it, for whatever reason, hasn't been picked up. I can't recall a case where the omission of a prior ticket check to spot the invalidity has been used successfully to appeal whatever penalty has been imposed.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I've had a good look at the notice and I really can't see any fault with how it's issued.

@AlterEgo is not referring to the notice you received, but the sign(s) posted at the station where you boarded the train, advising that a Penalty Fares system applied. The PF Regulations are very specific about the wording those signs must contain and where they are placed.

 

[womblingfree]

@AlterEgo is not referring to the notice you received, but the sign(s) posted at the station where you boarded the train, advising that a Penalty Fares system applied. The PF Regulations are very specific about the wording those signs must contain and where they are placed.

My reply was intended to be to the original comment, but it quoted the reply to the reply. "If you could upload the notice with your details redacted we can see if it has been filled in correctly." I'm pretty sure that's referring to the notice I received.

 

[WesternLancer]

My reply was to the original comment. "If you could upload the notice with your details redacted we can see if it has been filled in correctly." I'm pretty sure they're referring to the notice I received.

No, the basis of the Appeal being suggested to you is that the Penalty Fare is not valid because the signage warning about Penalty Fares at the station where you boarded is not compliant with the regulations / legislation. You would need to establish which aspects of the station poster's wording is non compliant and point this out to the Appeal body in your Appeal submission. Or you may need to upload an image of the poster so someone here can check it or ask if there is anyone on the forum who passes through that station who can do that for you.

It's a pretty common 'loophole' basis for appeals suggested on this forum by Penalty Fare experts. That is why @HurdyGurdy is pointing you in that direction.

Edit - a post #31 below indicates I had also misunderstood! (tho this is also a common loophole recommended on the forum)