Expired Railcard Chiltern prosecution

[Trainlinefool]

We know that some train operating companies monitor this site to some degree. Given the amount of detail you have chosen to provide they will be able to put two and two together.

Well. Hopefully it illustrates my complete confusion, distress and total ignorance.

 

[John R]

We have strong evidence that investigators for some of the different companies read these forums. Interestingly, some of that evidence is where a rail company is incorrectly pursuing someone and a swift intervention (sometimes within hours) has resulted in the case being dropped.

In this case, whilst they are entitled to pursue you, I think the fact that you are genuine in that you didn’t even realise the railcard was being used to procure a cheaper fare will not hinder your case.

 

[Trainlinefool]

The Network Railcard area is an odd shape which also includes Exeter, Worcester and King's Lynn - none of which are routinely described as being in the south-east.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==


A Gold Card is issued alongside the purchase of a qualifying Annual season ticket. Such a season ticket would not cost less than £200.

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We need to see the ticket(s) to be clear on this, or the details of the ticket(s) issued. Trainline do automatically 'split' tickets to save you money (they call it 'Splitsave') and may have done this while applying the Network Railcard discount to one (or more) tickets.

In the future, should I not book a SplitSave ticket? Or should I just not use the Railcard at all? Unless it’s within the M25?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==

I think there is a bit of confusion in your mind where you talk about the app applying the discount for journeys which it is not valid for. It would have been entirely appropriate for it to apply the Railcard in the way it did, had the Railcard still been in date. So I would delete that whole section.

Other than that it feels a bit long, and I do think you should clearly ask in the opening paragraph that your previous email is disregarded, and the reason why. Not sure I would explicitly mention this forum either, although it is likely it has been seen here!

So the app does reliably apply the right discounts? I do think the app developer should auto-remove expired Railcards! Our council does that for recycling collections. If you don’t pay your get your bins collected, the service disappears off the app for your address. They’ve just added an auto alert opt in service too so you can be reminded by text or email a few weeks before the annual recycling collection pass expires.

 

[AlterEgo]

In the future, should I not book a SplitSave ticket? Or should I just not use the Railcard at all? Unless it’s within the M25?

The M25 isn’t really relevant; the Network Railcard goes as far as Exeter and Weymouth. Isn’t the issue that you don’t actually have a railcard in the first place because it expired? All you need to do is unselect it from the search when you go to look for tickets. Or, buy a new railcard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==


So the app does reliably apply the right discounts?

Yes, it applies the correct discounts to each ticket according to the railcard you tell it you hold. Trainline isn’t really storing your railcard. It’s just remembering that *you* told it you’ve got a railcard and for convenience it’s defaulting to having it selected until you unselect it.

 

[SuspectUsual]

So the app does reliably apply the right discounts?

We believe it does

I do think the app developer should auto-remove expired Railcards

The problem is that people can and do buy tickets in advance of travel, sometimes by many months. The legal requirement is only to have a railcard at the point of travel - requiring one at point of purchase could waste months of validity

Having said that, apps like Trainline probably could do more - perhaps making the user select the railcard every time rather than reusing whatever was selected in the previous transaction

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Having said that, apps like Trainline probably could do more - perhaps making the user select the railcard every time rather than reusing whatever was selected in the previous transaction

That's the way that other sites. including the forum's Raileasy seem to operate.

But perhaps that's because I buy a (Senior) Railcard by redeeming Clubcard points, so ticket sites have no knowledge of railcards other than what I tell them. If there was a tick box to remember railcards, you might hope, perhaps in vain, they would ask for the expiry date as well.

 

[Trainlinefool]

I think there is a bit of confusion in your mind where you talk about the app applying the discount for journeys which it is not valid for. It would have been entirely appropriate for it to apply the Railcard in the way it did, had the Railcard still been in date. So I would delete that whole section.

Other than that it feels a bit long, and I do think you should clearly ask in the opening paragraph that your previous email is disregarded, and the reason why. Not sure I would explicitly mention this forum either, although it is likely it has been seen here!

I’ve removed the contents you’ve suggested. The letter is now shorter. Thank you for your advice. I hope the letter is received and considered so I can pay whatever I owe and move forward.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==

The M25 isn’t really relevant; the Network Railcard goes as far as Exeter and Weymouth. Isn’t the issue that you don’t actually have a railcard in the first place because it expired? All you need to do is unselect it from the search when you go to look for tickets. Or, buy a new railcard.

Yes, it applies the correct discounts to each ticket according to the railcard you tell it you hold. Trainline isn’t really storing your railcard. It’s just remembering that *you* told it you’ve got a railcard and for convenience it’s defaulting to having it selected until you unselect it.

Golly - it goes to Weymouth! Somebody in these threads said it was a stretch to assume Leamington was part of the scheme. But we’re only 45 mins from Oxford!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==

I’ve removed the contents you’ve suggested. The letter is now shorter. Thank you for your advice. I hope the letter is received and considered so I can pay whatever I owe and move forward.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==


Golly - it goes to Weymouth! Somebody in these threads said it was a stretch to assume Leamington was part of the scheme. But we’re only 45 mins from Oxford!

I renewed the Railcard as soon as I figured out it had expired on that journey.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Golly - it goes to Weymouth! Somebody in these threads said it was a stretch to assume Leamington was part of the scheme. But we’re only 45 mins from Oxford!

It’s a bit of an accident of history, and is related to the way the pre-privatisation British Rail was organised

 

[Trainlinefool]

We believe it does




The problem is that people can and do buy tickets in advance of travel, sometimes by many months. The legal requirement is only to have a railcard at the point of travel - requiring one at point of purchase could waste months of validity

Having said that, apps like Trainline probably could do more - perhaps making the user select the railcard every time rather than reusing whatever was selected in the previous transaction

Ah. That makes sense. I suppose it’s like booking air travel for next years holiday with a passport that’s due to expire. Many get caught out with that one! Although it’s not a criminal offence to the best of my knowledge!

 

[MarlowDonkey]

n't
Golly - it goes to Weymouth! Somebody in these threads said it was a stretch to assume Leamington was part of the scheme. But we’re only 45 mins from Oxford!

I think it goes back to internal debates within British Rail in the late 1980s. British Rail divided itself into "Inter City", "Regional" and "Network South East". It was where there were stations served by two or three of these divisions that anomalies developed.

InterCity ran services from Reading and beyond to Banbury and beyond. This may partly explain why the Network South East (NSE) cut off points are at Didcot and Banbury. InterCity didn't run to Weymouth or Exeter Central on the Honiton route, so these were bundled into NSE.

 

[Hadders]

DRAFT:
Further to your letter dated 9th May, which was delivered and opened on Tuesday 20th May and my email of the same date, I’ve been able to access informal advice via Rail Forum UK.

After my initial shock and distress to discover Chiltern were considering prosecution, I am writing to sincerely apologise for travelling with an invalid ticket.

This was an unintended oversight on my part as I had not realised the Network Railcard had expired, nor that it was still ‘applied’ to invalid journeys via the Trainline app. I immediately renewed the Railcard.

On the journey in question, the train conductor scanned my ticket and asked to see the Railcard. I tried looking for it on the app. The conductor said “don’t worry, I’ll pass your details on and someone will be in touch to pay the difference.”

I thought nothing more of it and renewed the Railcard. I have attached on a separate page proof of the ticket purchased on the day, as requested. I fully accept I had inadvertently and mistakenly purchased an invalid ticket and am very sorry for my mistake, it will absolutely not happen again.

Please advise how I can pay for the outstanding fare/s. I wish to reassure you I will do my utmost to ensure this does not happen again.

This is the first and only time anything like this has happened. At the time of purchasing the Network Railcard, I had originally completed a ‘quiz’ on the Trainline app to find out if a discount card was relevant to my travel requirements. I had acted in good faith based on the information the app supplied.

I will be attempting to contact Trainline to let them know the advice on the app is potentially overly simplistic and does not alert customers to situations like this one with a Railcard applied to journeys it is not valid for.

I have certainly learned to be absolutely scrupulous on double checking terms and conditions when purchasing tickets in the future, and that the Trainline may not afford easily accessible information and to triple check whichever tickets a third party app recommends as any savings may not be applicable.

I have attached screenshots from Trainline app for your reference, which informed my decision making when travelling (principally) on the Chiltern line.

I will now only purchase tickets via the Chiltern app.

I very much wish to settle this matter out of court for the fare due plus any administration fee and appeal most sincerely for the option to do this as soon as possible.
I am extremely sorry and look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely

What do you mean they will have seen it in this forum?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==


Whatever is owed I just want to sort it out. Colleagues have said it’s a strict liability offence so I guess there is no leeway whatsoever. I agree their approach feels extremely heavy handed and suffice to say I will feel extremely anxious travelling by rail / on the Chiltern line in the future, which will impact my sense of safety in the future and inclination to travel by public transport. I’m unbelievably shocked and remain upset at the way Chiltern have handled this. I just want it over and done with.

The letter's generally ok but I'd try and shorten it a little.

There's no need to send them screenshots so I'd take this out. No need to say you'll purchase from the Chiltern app either - IIRC their app does a similar splitsave thing!
Take out the first reference to asking how you can pay the outstanding fare, this is covered later int he letter and you only need to say it once.

It's Chiltern's decision whether or not to prosecute so at the end I'd say something like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am prepared to pay the outstanding fare plus you administrative costs in dealing with this issue'.


On the more general point of railcards and apps/websites 'remembering' them it is genuinely a difficult one.

If a railcard is purchased on a particular website/app then arguably that website should be able to 'remember' the expiry date
But you can buy tickets from any website or app, you're not obliged to only use the website/app you purchased the railcard from
You might have bought a railcard from a ticket office, the app won't know the expiry date.
You could be asked to key the expiry date into the app the first time you use that railcard but how many would but an incorrect date (311299 for example)
You can buy tickets for other people so what happens if you don't know their railcard expiry date?
The retailer could send you a reminder by email or post (I do get them) but what if you've ticket 'no' to marketing communications?
What happens if you hold more than one railcard (at one point last year I had five - which one should be remembered?)

I strongly recommend setting your own railcard expiry reminder in your calendar

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==

Ah. That makes sense. I suppose it’s like booking air travel for next years holiday with a passport that’s due to expire. Many get caught out with that one! Although it’s not a criminal offence to the best of my knowledge!

It's one of those 'life admin' things. Sometimes it can have unintended consequences. Other examples include forgetting to renew your insurance (illegal if it's car insurance, forgetting to renew a driving license - again illegal)

Chiltern know that these sort of things happen and I've seen hundreds of similar cases over the years that are normally dealt with by an out of court settlement. What makes this case a little more complicated was the email you initially sent to Chiltern, and that's simply because it didn't contain the sort of wording that would demonstrate you're co-operating with them. Hopefully the situation can be rescued and Chiltern will still offer you a settlement.

 

[Trainlinefool]

The letter's generally ok but I'd try and shorten it a little.

There's no need to send them screenshots so I'd take this out. No need to say you'll purchase from the Chiltern app either - IIRC their app does a similar splitsave thing!
Take out the first reference to asking how you can pay the outstanding fare, this is covered later int he letter and you only need to say it once.

It's Chiltern's decision whether or not to prosecute so at the end I'd say something like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am prepared to pay the outstanding fare plus you administrative costs in dealing with this issue'.


On the more general point of railcards and apps/websites 'remembering' them it is genuinely a difficult one.

If a railcard is purchased on a particular website/app then arguably that website should be able to 'remember' the expiry date
But you can buy tickets from any website or app, you're not obliged to only use the website/app you purchased the railcard from
You might have bought a railcard from a ticket office, the app won't know the expiry date.
You could be asked to key the expiry date into the app the first time you use that railcard but how many would but an incorrect date (311299 for example)
You can buy tickets for other people so what happens if you don't know their railcard expiry date?
The retailer could send you a reminder by email or post (I do get them) but what if you've ticket 'no' to marketing communications?
What happens if you hold more than one railcard (at one point last year I had five - which one should be remembered?)

I strongly recommend setting your own railcard expiry reminder in your calendar

Thing is, the original Railcard was purchased by the Trainline app. And I’ve renewed it via them as well. Bank cards expiry is held so I don’t see why a discount card’s details can’t be remembered. Anyhow. I won’t be forgetting March 2025 in a hurry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==

The letter's generally ok but I'd try and shorten it a little.

There's no need to send them screenshots so I'd take this out. No need to say you'll purchase from the Chiltern app either - IIRC their app does a similar splitsave thing!
Take out the first reference to asking how you can pay the outstanding fare, this is covered later int he letter and you only need to say it once.

It's Chiltern's decision whether or not to prosecute so at the end I'd say something like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am prepared to pay the outstanding fare plus you administrative costs in dealing with this issue'.


On the more general point of railcards and apps/websites 'remembering' them it is genuinely a difficult one.

If a railcard is purchased on a particular website/app then arguably that website should be able to 'remember' the expiry date
But you can buy tickets from any website or app, you're not obliged to only use the website/app you purchased the railcard from
You might have bought a railcard from a ticket office, the app won't know the expiry date.
You could be asked to key the expiry date into the app the first time you use that railcard but how many would but an incorrect date (311299 for example)
You can buy tickets for other people so what happens if you don't know their railcard expiry date?
The retailer could send you a reminder by email or post (I do get them) but what if you've ticket 'no' to marketing communications?
What happens if you hold more than one railcard (at one point last year I had five - which one should be remembered?)

I strongly recommend setting your own railcard expiry reminder in your calendar

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==


It's one of those 'life admin' things. Sometimes it can have unintended consequences. Other examples include forgetting to renew your insurance (illegal if it's car insurance, forgetting to renew a driving license - again illegal)

Chiltern know that these sort of things happen and I've seen hundreds of similar cases over the years that are normally dealt with by an out of court settlement. What makes this case a little more complicated was the email you initially sent to Chiltern, and that's simply because it didn't contain the sort of wording that would demonstrate you're co-operating with them. Hopefully the situation can be rescued and Chiltern will still offer you a settlement.

I’ve shortened the letter and it concludes as you’ve suggested. Thank you for your advice. I really hope I can pay whatever is owed and put it down to bitter experience!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==

The letter's generally ok but I'd try and shorten it a little.

There's no need to send them screenshots so I'd take this out. No need to say you'll purchase from the Chiltern app either - IIRC their app does a similar splitsave thing!
Take out the first reference to asking how you can pay the outstanding fare, this is covered later int he letter and you only need to say it once.

It's Chiltern's decision whether or not to prosecute so at the end I'd say something like 'I wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without the need for court action. I am prepared to pay the outstanding fare plus you administrative costs in dealing with this issue'.


On the more general point of railcards and apps/websites 'remembering' them it is genuinely a difficult one.

If a railcard is purchased on a particular website/app then arguably that website should be able to 'remember' the expiry date
But you can buy tickets from any website or app, you're not obliged to only use the website/app you purchased the railcard from
You might have bought a railcard from a ticket office, the app won't know the expiry date.
You could be asked to key the expiry date into the app the first time you use that railcard but how many would but an incorrect date (311299 for example)
You can buy tickets for other people so what happens if you don't know their railcard expiry date?
The retailer could send you a reminder by email or post (I do get them) but what if you've ticket 'no' to marketing communications?
What happens if you hold more than one railcard (at one point last year I had five - which one should be remembered?)

I strongly recommend setting your own railcard expiry reminder in your calendar

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==


It's one of those 'life admin' things. Sometimes it can have unintended consequences. Other examples include forgetting to renew your insurance (illegal if it's car insurance, forgetting to renew a driving license - again illegal)

Chiltern know that these sort of things happen and I've seen hundreds of similar cases over the years that are normally dealt with by an out of court settlement. What makes this case a little more complicated was the email you initially sent to Chiltern, and that's simply because it didn't contain the sort of wording that would demonstrate you're co-operating with them. Hopefully the situation can be rescued and Chiltern will still offer you a settlement.

I really hope the situation can be rescued. March coincided with a close relative planning suicide and suffice to say I was hanging on by a thread. It was a miracle to get to work at all. Really really hope Chiltern permit an out of court settlement. I remain terrified.

 

[30907]

Thing is, the original Railcard was purchased by the Trainline app. And I’ve renewed it via them as well. Bank cards expiry is held so I don’t see why a discount card’s details can’t be remembered.

I think you have grounds for a complaint to Trainline (once this is resolved - which I am pretty sure it will be): the official Railcard app certainly sends reminders and greys-out expired railcards - though it remains the owner's responsibility etc etc.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I think you have grounds for a complaint to Trainline (once this is resolved - which I am pretty sure it will be): the official Railcard app certainly sends reminders and greys-out expired railcards - though it remains the owner's responsibility etc etc.

It depends on whether the user opts in to marketing emails. But more fundamentally as you say it’s the user’s responsibility

 

[Trainlinefool]

I think you have grounds for a complaint to Trainline (once this is resolved - which I am pretty sure it will be): the official Railcard app certainly sends reminders and greys-out expired railcards - though it remains the owner's responsibility etc etc.

If I have the energy I’ll do that!