Expired Railcard

[ChewChewTrain]

I don’t ever recall anyone else on here reporting getting a RoRA summons, even in cases where you’d think a conviction would be likely. Like others, I’m curious as to what exactly makes this case different.

In any case, this makes it all the more important to settle if at all possible. A RoRA conviction is something you want to keep off your record, given that it suggests wilful dishonesty.

 

[Panky5555]

I don’t ever recall anyone else on here reporting getting a RoRA summons, even in cases where you’d think a conviction would be likely. Like others, I’m curious as to what exactly makes this case different.

In any case, this makes it all the more important to settle if at all possible. A RoRA conviction is something you want to keep off your record, given that it suggests wilful dishonesty.

I'm confused? What's a RoRA summons and what's the difference between this to any other summons?

 

[Hadders]

My attempt at requesting to settle outside of court... I thought I'd come here for advice before I click send.
Honestly, i feel sick to my stomach right now!

"Good evening,

I have not been contacted since our last correspondence in March.

I am still unsure how the entire process of the penalty fee works which is why I have been waiting for a response from someone regarding my appeal.

I assumed we were still speaking on terms of my appeal, but i have just received a letter of Court Summons? I would much prefer to settle the matter outside of court if at all possible, i was just unaware of how the entire process works and did not realise it would go this far this fast.

Can I look at paying the penalty rather than going ahead with court?

Many thanks,"


What would happen if I went ahead and paid the original £140 stated in the original letter? Would that close the case or would everything still continue?

Forum members have given some good advice upthread but you're in a bit of a hole here and you're replying on something technical to get off this if it ends up in court. This is a prosecution under s5.3(a) of the RoRA which upon conviction carries a 'full fat' criminal record.

You could try and pay the original £140 but I suspect this opton is no longer available on their online payment system.

I think your email to SWR needs to be more concilitary and have a more apologetic tone.

 

[Panky5555]

Forum members have given some good advice upthread but you're in a bit of a hole here and you're replying on something technical to get off this if it ends up in court. This is a prosecution under s5.3(a) of the RoRA which upon conviction carries a 'full fat' criminal record.

You could try and pay the original £140 but I suspect this opton is no longer available on their online payment system.

I think your email to SWR needs to be more concilitary and have a more apologetic tone.

I genuinely don't understand how it has come so far so quickly due to a genuine mistake?
I have taken on board the advice given by the members of this forum, and I'm not going to lie, I feel much more queezy than I did when I first posted to this forum!

Please let me know if the following is a better way of coming across;

"Good evening,

I hope you are well.

I am writing to you as I have not heard anything since our last correspondence.

I am still unsure on how these matters are dealt with fully, but I sincerely apologise for wasting your time and whomever else was involved with this matter.

I have never gone through this process before, so I am unsure as to how to proceed. As stated in my original email, i admit guilt under human error on my part that i should take responsibility for my actions when it comes to my own railcard. Nobody else is to blame.

My original appeal was not the fact that my railcard was out of date, as i have admitted that it was, but instead my appeal was that the penalty that I recieved felt unfair.
I would much prefer to settle the matter outside of court if at all possible, i was just unaware of how the entire process works and did not realise it would go this far.

Can I look at paying the penalty rather than going ahead with court and wasting the court's time. I apologise again for wasting not only your time but the time of anyone that has been involved with this matter.

Many thanks,"

 

[12LDA28C]

I genuinely don't understand how it has come so far so quickly due to a genuine mistake?
I have taken on board the advice given by the members of this forum, and I'm not going to lie, I feel much more queezy than I did when I first posted to this forum!

Look at it from the revenue protection staff's point of view. They might stop 100 people a day without a valid ticket. Whilst yours is as you say a genuine mistake, most likely the other 99 people stopped will come up with a similar excuse (the RPI will have heard it all before a thousand times) and some of those people stopped will have deliberately attempted to travel without a valid ticket. If the RPI believed everyone who gave them a sob story and let them off then they wouldn't be doing their job properly. It may sound harsh and you feel you've been unfairly treated but there it is.

If you hold a railcard or some other pass that allows you to purchase discounted tickets it's entirely your responsibility to ensure that railcard is valid and in date. Again, that's not meant to sound harsh but it's a fact. I hope this all works out for you though, fingers crossed.

 

[pedr]

I think there is some confusion here over the underlying law and regulation applicable to travelling on the railway.

Since the nineteenth century, it has been a crime to travel on a train without paying the correct fare, intending not to pay that correct fare. That's the Regulation of Railways Act offence. It does require that, at some point in the journey or its aftermath, the passenger chooses not to pay what is due. There may be some legal arguments which could demonstrate that this charge is inapplicable here, but buying a ticket discounted with an out of date railcard is at least partial evidence of the offence. This can only be procecuted in magistrates' courts but, as an offence created directly by an Act of Parliament, it is a 'recordable' offence and will be automatically entered onto the various police records when someone is convicted. For a first offence the only available punishments are a fine (or conditional or absolute discharges).

More recently two separate and parallel sets of laws allow for train companies to take action when passengers do not have the correct, valid ticket. You've been referring to the concept of penalty fares, but this is only one of the two schemes. The other is that the railway bylaws, limited jurisdiction laws which the train companies and Department of Transport have the power to create, make separate criminal offences including failing to present a valid ticket when requested in circumstances where it was possible to buy a ticket at the station before travelling. This is not a recordable offence, though a person convicted of it has still been convicted of a criminal offence, unlike a person who is charged and pays a penalty fare.

The train companies will have their own approaches to dealing with people they find without a correct ticket. While your argument is that this was an error, in that you did not realise that the railcard had expired (and I have no reason to doubt you) the train company has no evidence to distinguish between that error and a person who is regularly and deliberately applying a railcard discount they aren't entitled to. So issuing a penalty fare may not be the approach they wish to take. It is logical for them to obtain a passenger's details and to run some checks to see for instance if there is evidence that many other discounted tickets have been purchased. At that point penalty fares are inapplicable; they cannot be issued afterwards, only immediately. And the train companies assert that it's appropriate to require payment to cover the costs of investigating, along with the full fare due since the railcard-discounted ticket was entirely invalid. It seems that they would have accepted a payment instead of prosecuting, but once this was rejected they are then using the powers the law gives them. As with any criminal offence, there is an element both of taking action against the individual for individual deterrence and also the wider incentive to be seen to be using the law to make it generally clear that a passenger is (in most circumstances) required to have a correct and valid ticket before boarding a train.

 

[Panky5555]

Look at it from the revenue protection staff's point of view. They might stop 100 people a day without a valid ticket. Whilst yours is as you say a genuine mistake, most likely the other 99 people stopped will come up with a similar excuse (the RPI will have heard it all before a thousand times) and some of those people stopped will have deliberately attempted to travel without a valid ticket. If the RPI believed everyone who gave them a sob story and let them off then they wouldn't be doing their job properly. It may sound harsh and you feel you've been unfairly treated but there it is.

If you hold a railcard or some other pass that allows you to purchase discounted tickets it's entirely your responsibility to ensure that railcard is valid and in date. Again, that's not meant to sound harsh but it's a fact. I hope this all works out for you though, fingers crossed.

I completely understand your point as when I googled the fact, over 20,000 people are caught per year for ticket evasion, so understanding this, why would they believe me over Tom, Dick or Harry? My only defence is that why would I? My railcard costs me £30 per year meaning after two trips only, I've made my money back, it makes no sense for me to not update the railcard had I known.
I do agree it is wholeheartedly my responsibility to ensure my ticket is valid, so I literally have no leg to stand on.

My fingers, toes and eyes are crossed that they accept my plea to ensue the original fine rather than a criminal record!

I think there is some confusion here over the underlying law and regulation applicable to travelling on the railway.

Since the nineteenth century, it has been a crime to travel on a train without paying the correct fare, intending not to pay that correct fare. That's the Regulation of Railways Act offence. It does require that, at some point in the journey or its aftermath, the passenger chooses not to pay what is due. There may be some legal arguments which could demonstrate that this charge is inapplicable here, but buying a ticket discounted with an out of date railcard is at least partial evidence of the offence. This can only be procecuted in magistrates' courts but, as an offence created directly by an Act of Parliament, it is a 'recordable' offence and will be automatically entered onto the various police records when someone is convicted. For a first offence the only available punishments are a fine (or conditional or absolute discharges).

More recently two separate and parallel sets of laws allow for train companies to take action when passengers do not have the correct, valid ticket. You've been referring to the concept of penalty fares, but this is only one of the two schemes. The other is that the railway bylaws, limited jurisdiction laws which the train companies and Department of Transport have the power to create, make separate criminal offences including failing to present a valid ticket when requested in circumstances where it was possible to buy a ticket at the station before travelling. This is not a recordable offence, though a person convicted of it has still been convicted of a criminal offence, unlike a person who is charged and pays a penalty fare.

The train companies will have their own approaches to dealing with people they find without a correct ticket. While your argument is that this was an error, in that you did not realise that the railcard had expired (and I have no reason to doubt you) the train company has no evidence to distinguish between that error and a person who is regularly and deliberately applying a railcard discount they aren't entitled to. So issuing a penalty fare may not be the approach they wish to take. It is logical for them to obtain a passenger's details and to run some checks to see for instance if there is evidence that many other discounted tickets have been purchased. At that point penalty fares are inapplicable; they cannot be issued afterwards, only immediately. And the train companies assert that it's appropriate to require payment to cover the costs of investigating, along with the full fare due since the railcard-discounted ticket was entirely invalid. It seems that they would have accepted a payment instead of prosecuting, but once this was rejected they are then using the powers the law gives them. As with any criminal offence, there is an element both of taking action against the individual for individual deterrence and also the wider incentive to be seen to be using the law to make it generally clear that a passenger is (in most circumstances) required to have a correct and valid ticket before boarding a train.

I'm sorry, I've read this now four times really trying to understand what you are saying...

So to confirm, there are two avenues the company can go down, one being the RoRA offence that can only be dealt with via magistrates court and the bylaw which I'm not going to lie, confused me somewhat. It looks as though the company went down the RoRA avenue which is why I am summons to the magistrates court.

But as I said previously, although I have admitted guilt the entire way through, surely common sense would prevail somewhere whereby my railcard literally costs £30 per year, so why wouldn't I have updated it if I genuinely knew? £30 in the greater scheme of things is peanuts considering a single ticket costs £40! It makes no sense as to why I would not update my railcard had I known it was expired...

 

[Hadders]

I am confident that you didn't intend to travel with an expired railcard but unfortunately you did, and unfortunately that is a criminal offence however harsh it appears. Comparisions to non-railway matters are often difficult but it's like being caught driving at 36mph in a 30mph limit. You might not have intended it to happen but if it did you're guilty and there's not normally any defence.

The difficulty is that if people with invalid tickets are allowed to simply pay the difference then people are just going to travel with expired railcards safe in the knowledge that the worst that can happen is that when they are eventually caught all they need to do is pay the difference on the day.

I'm confused? What's a RoRA summons and what's the difference between this to any other summons?

Most prosecutions we see are under the Railway Bylaws. A Bylaw conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on standard DBS checks.

Prosecutions under the Regulation of the Railways Act are less common but are normally used in more serious cases. A conviction would be recorded on the Police National Computer and would show on standard DBS checks until it is considered 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

As I mentioned upthread if you want SWR to drop the court proceedings and agree to settle out of court then I think you need to adopt a different tone in your letter. Something like:

Dear South Wester Railway,

I am writing about the Unpaid Fare Notice issued to me on XX XXXX following a ticket check where it was discovered that my Vetrans Railcard had expired.

I am sorry that my railcard had expired, I inadvertently forgot to renew it but now appreciate that this meant that I did not have a valid ticket for my journey. I have since renewed my railcard and will be sure to make sure that my tickets are fully valid in future.

I appealed the Unpaid Fare Notice and contacted my MP about the matter and while I appreciate you rejected the appeal I have not yet received a reply from my MP so I was surprised to discover that you have issued a court summmons. I am keen to keep the matter out of court and wondered if it would be possible to to settle this matter by paying the outstanding fare and your costs in dealing with this matter.

Yours sincerely,

If SWR do agree to a settlement then it might cost more than £140 because their admin costs in dealing with the matter may wel have increased further. Be aware that if the matter does go to court and you are found guilty (and you will be found guilty unless someone can come up with a technicality) then you can expect to pay a fine, compensation to SWR for the outstanding fare, a victim surcharge and a contribution towards SWR's prosecution costs. This won't be cheap, there will be little change (if any) out of £1,000.

 

[Panky5555]

I am confident that you didn't intend to travel with an expired railcard but unfortunately you did, and unfortunately that is a criminal offence however harsh it appears. Comparisions to non-railway matters are often difficult but it's like being caught driving at 36mph in a 30mph limit. You might not have intended it to happen but if it did you're guilty and there's not normally any defence.

The difficulty is that if people with invalid tickets are allowed to simply pay the difference then people are just going to travel with expired railcards safe in the knowledge that the worst that can happen is that when they are eventually caught all they need to do is pay the difference on the day.


Most prosecutions we see are under the Railway Bylaws. A Bylaw conviction isn't normally recorded on the Police National Computer and ordinarily won't show on standard DBS checks.

Prosecutions under the Regulation of the Railways Act are less common but are normally used in more serious cases. A conviction would be recorded on the Police National Computer and would show on standard DBS checks until it is considered 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

As I mentioned upthread if you want SWR to drop the court proceedings and agree to settle out of court then I think you need to adopt a different tone in your letter. Something like:

Dear South Wester Railway,

I am writing about the Unpaid Fare Notice issued to me on XX XXXX following a ticket check where it was discovered that my Vetrans Railcard had expired.

I am sorry that my railcard had expired, I inadvertently forgot to renew it but now appreciate that this meant that I did not have a valid ticket for my journey. I have since renewed my railcard and will be sure to make sure that my tickets are fully valid in future.

I appealed the Unpaid Fare Notice and contacted my MP about the matter and while I appreciate you rejected the appeal I have not yet received a reply from my MP so I was surprised to discover that you have issued a court summmons. I am keen to keep the matter out of court and wondered if it would be possible to to settle this matter by paying the outstanding fare and your costs in dealing with this matter.

Yours sincerely,

If SWR do agree to a settlement then it might cost more than £140 because their admin costs in dealing with the matter may wel have increased further. Be aware that if the matter does go to court and you are found guilty (and you will be found guilty unless someone can come up with a technicality) then you can expect to pay a fine, compensation to SWR for the outstanding fare, a victim surcharge and a contribution towards SWR's prosecution costs. This won't be cheap, there will be little change (if any) out of £1,000.

Since coming to this forum, I have come to the realisation that no matter how I look at it, it was an offence. It does make sense since so many people do evade payment, so why would they believe me over anyone else...

My main worry isn't so much the fine (no matter how much it will cripple me) but the record afterwards since it will effect my career as well as my future career wherever it may lead!

With regards to the email that I will be sending, is it wise to respond to previous correspondence in March or start an entirely new email?

Honestly, the information, guidance and advice of this forum in such a short space of time has been invaluable! I wish to thank you all no matter the outcome of this matter.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I genuinely don't understand how it has come so far so quickly due to a genuine mistake?
I have taken on board the advice given by the members of this forum, and I'm not going to lie, I feel much more queezy than I did when I first posted to this forum!

Please let me know if the following is a better way of coming across;

"Good evening,

I hope you are well.

I am writing to you as I have not heard anything since our last correspondence.

I am still unsure on how these matters are dealt with fully, but I sincerely apologise for wasting your time and whomever else was involved with this matter.

I have never gone through this process before, so I am unsure as to how to proceed. As stated in my original email, i admit guilt under human error on my part that i should take responsibility for my actions when it comes to my own railcard. Nobody else is to blame.

My original appeal was not the fact that my railcard was out of date, as i have admitted that it was, but instead my appeal was that the penalty that I recieved felt unfair.
I would much prefer to settle the matter outside of court if at all possible, i was just unaware of how the entire process works and did not realise it would go this far.

Can I look at paying the penalty rather than going ahead with court and wasting the court's time. I apologise again for wasting not only your time but the time of anyone that has been involved with this matter.

Many thanks,"

Obviously one can only glean so much from forum posts, but, FWIW, I (like others) am confident you’re being truthful with us about your intentions etc (which is certainly not something I can say in regard to every thread here).

The people here genuinely want to help; no-one is trying to make this experience worse for you than it already is, but, with your military background, I’m sure you appreciate the value of the frank appraisal. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the law and the way the railway (and you) have acted thus far, the fact is that you’re in a potentially sticky situation, stickier than most we see on here, and you must manoeuvre carefully to give yourself the best chance to get out of it.

The good news is that you are in the best possible place for advice, short of paying a specialist solicitor a near 4-figure sum (and, probably, a settlement on top of that). Once you have (with any luck) settled with them, you will then (if you wish) be able to revisit whether the railway have acted reasonably, what your MP thinks, etc. But first things first! Good luck.

 

[Hadders]

Since coming to this forum, I have come to the realisation that no matter how I look at it, it was an offence. It does make sense since so many people do evade payment, so why would they believe me over anyone else...

My main worry isn't so much the fine (no matter how much it will cripple me) but the record afterwards since it will effect my career as well as my future career wherever it may lead!

With regards to the email that I will be sending, is it wise to respond to previous correspondence in March or start an entirely new email?

Honestly, the information, guidance and advice of this forum in such a short space of time has been invaluable! I wish to thank you all no matter the outcome of this matter.

Thanks. We do pride ourselves on the quality of our advice. It's a pity you didn't come across this forum when the incident first happened. Do keep us updated on how you get on as it helps us when helping people in the future.

 

[Panky5555]

Obviously one can only glean so much from forum posts, but, FWIW, I (like others) am confident you’re being truthful with us about your intentions etc (which is certainly not something I can say in regard to every thread here).

The people here genuinely want to help; no-one is trying to make this experience worse for you than it already is, but, with your military background, I’m sure you appreciate the value of the frank appraisal. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the law and the way the railway (and you) have acted thus far, the fact is that you’re in a potentially sticky situation, stickier than most we see on here, and you must manoeuvre carefully to give yourself the best chance to get out of it.

The good news is that you are in the best possible place for advice, short of paying a specialist solicitor a near 4-figure sum (and, probably, a settlement on top of that). Once you have (with any luck) settled with them, you will then (if you wish) be able to revisit whether the railway have acted reasonably, what your MP thinks, etc. But first things first! Good luck.

I very much appreciate someone telling me how it is rather than beating around the Bush, I just honestly didn't realise the situation that I was even in until I came here. I've never been in this type of situation, and for something like this to not only tarnish my person, but potentially tarnish my future career prospects is unnerving!

I will/have taken all the advice given from this forum and I can't state anymore how appreciative I am of the advice given on such short notice!

Hopefully the outcome is not so severe and I can end this with just the fine!

Thanks. We do pride ourselves on the quality of our advice. It's a pity you didn't come across this forum when the incident first happened. Do keep us updated on how you get on as it helps us when helping people in the future.

Sadly we cannot turn back time, i instead turned to my friends and colleagues who advised me to go down the MP route.
I will indeed keep you informed of any good/bad/ugly news that may occur and no doubt ask for more advice in the coming weeks!

With regards to the email that I will be sending, is it wise to respond to previous correspondence in March or start an entirely new email?

@Hadders should I reply to the previous thread email that occurred in March or start an entirely new email thread with the Prosecutions team?

 

[Hadders]

I very much appreciate someone telling me how it is rather than beating around the Bush, I just honestly didn't realise the situation that I was even in until I came here. I've never been in this type of situation, and for something like this to not only tarnish my person, but potentially tarnish my future career prospects is unnerving!

I will/have taken all the advice given from this forum and I can't state anymore how appreciative I am of the advice given on such short notice!

Hopefully the outcome is not so severe and I can end this with just the fine!


Sadly we cannot turn back time, i instead turned to my friends and colleagues who advised me to go down the MP route.
I will indeed keep you informed of any good/bad/ugly news that may occur and no doubt ask for more advice in the coming weeks!


@Hadders should I reply to the previous thread email that occurred in March or start an entirely new email thread with the Prosecutions team?

It really doesn't matter. I'd be tempted to start a new email thread but do make sure the case reference number is clearly put in your email.

 

[furlong]

Reply to the previous thread, but to be honest I think you need to be even more conciliatory now than is being suggested, apologising for the tone of your previous messages and making clear that now you've discussed the situation with more people you understand it better and saying you will settle if they reinstate their earlier offer (plus an additional amount to cover the court paperwork they've since issued).

 

[ChewChewTrain]

It certainly wouldn’t hurt to apologise for the tone of the previous messages, IMO. I think, perhaps, the OP thought this was more akin to (say) a dispute with one’s bank over overdraft charges than a situation where criminal prosecution was a serious possibility. Now, they seem to have realised that, in reality, the railway hold pretty much all the cards here, and that it is ball rather than hardball which they need to play. I don’t know if that can or should be worked into their apology somehow.

(OP: I appreciate you taking the time to thank us. It makes all the difference.)

 

[furlong]

On the underlying point about how much getting out of this situation costs, THAT is what you need to raise with your M.P. because changing this needs either the courts or politicians to reign in the train companies. Using the courts is too expensive (you'd need a 6 or 7 figure sum as the train companies would fight it all the way). Politicians don't want to be accused of siding with fare dodgers so you might have to wait until an M.P. gets caught out by the unfairness.

 

[Panky5555]

Dear South Western Railway,

I am writing about the Unpaid Fare Notice issued to me on the 30th January, following a ticket check where it was discovered that my Vetrans Railcard had expired, reference number XXXXXXX

I am sorry that my railcard had expired, I inadvertently forgot to renew it but now appreciate that this meant that I did not have a valid ticket for my journey. I have since renewed my railcard and will be sure to make sure that my tickets are fully valid in future.

I also apologise for the manner of how I treated the situation. After speaking to more people, I have since realised that the penalty is the penalty, and that I had no right in disputing the fact.

I appealed the Unpaid Fare Notice and contacted my MP about the matter and while I appreciate you rejected the appeal I have not yet received a reply from my MP so I was surprised to discover that you have issued a court summmons. I am keen to keep the matter out of court and wondered if it would be possible to to settle this matter by paying the outstanding fare and your costs in dealing with this matter.

I sincerely hope that you accept my apology, and we can move forward with out of an court settlement. I am happy to also pay an additional amount to cover the court paperwork you've since issued.

Yours sincerely,

 

[Haywain]

I would suggest leaving out the first part of the penultimate paragraph completely. I think it still confuses the otherwise conciliatory tone of the letter

 

[Panky5555]

I would suggest leaving out the first part of the penultimate paragraph completely. I think it still confuses the otherwise conciliatory tone of the letter

I did think this myself, talking about the MP etc. Doesn't sound too apologetic.

I'm not amazing with words which is why I keep coming back here to ensure everything looks OK before I click send. My apologies to you all for the continuous questions.

 

[Haywain]

I did think this myself, talking about the MP etc. Doesn't sound too apologetic.

I'm not amazing with words which is why I keep coming back here to ensure everything looks OK before I click send. My apologies to you all for the continuous questions.

Otherwise, I think it's fine.

 

[Panky5555]

The email has been sent and my stomach is now in knots!

 

[Haywain]

The email has been sent and my stomach is now in knots!

Good luck.

 

[island]

Two very technical points to note:

as an offence created directly by an Act of Parliament, it is a 'recordable' offence and will be automatically entered onto the various police records when someone is convicted

The reason the offence under section 5 (3) of the Regulation of Railways Act is “recordable” is not that it was “created directly by an Act of Parliament” but that the offence is potentially punishable by imprisonment (the fact that this is only on a second or subsequent conviction is immaterial). (Non-imprisonable offences can be declared recordable by a Home Office minister, though that is not relevant here. You can read more in SI 2000/1139, or more legibly in the Wikipedia article for “recordable offence”.)

A conviction would be recorded on the Police National Computer and would show on standard DBS checks until it is considered 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.

I suspect you have in mind “basic” rather than “standard” DBS checks. The former exclude spent convictions; the latter do not. The third category of “enhanced” also includes information a police force considers relevant to the role for which the check is made. To complicate things yet further, a separate status called “filtered” exists for very old offences that may be hidden from standard/enhanced checks.