Extent of London, 'basically London', and the commuter belt

[Kilopylae]

The extent of London isn't a matter of opinion. It's the London boroughs plus the City. Postcodes, dialling codes and whether or not people in Bromley put "Kent" in their address don't come into it.

For many people it's a vibes thing, or cultural. The official boundaries can seem like an excessively extensive administrative convenience (as in the people who don't think Romford or even Croydon are London) or an overly narrow relic of the 1960s (and/or a product of people who live in places that are basically part of the London sprawl's reluctance to admit it — e.g. Epsom).

 

[Acey]

Well I was born in Kent and spent the first 17 years of my life as a Kentishman and no amount of municipal tinkering will change that !

 

[DunsBus]

These days use of the term "home counties" has fallen away, in part because the regions for many people are more defined by the TV regions. The "wider" London area could be defined by the London TV region - such areas get London news on the regional news, which, in that it is news these days, almost all concentrates on Greater London.

I remember visiting Aldershot for the firat time in 2011 and being surprised at the number of TV aerials (pretty much all of them!) pointing to Crystal Palace, as I'd assumed that, with being in Hampshire, it was part of Meridian's territory.

 

[REVUpminster]

The folk in Gidea Park and Upminster think they are in Essex until told they would lose their Freedom Pass if they were in Essex.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I've been reading some interesting history regarding Malden Rushett and the rural area of Lower Chessington. Until the end of the 19th century this was the one of the original Corporation of London coal-tax posts so maintained a sort of local 'this is where London starts' status. Add to that the local church parish was amalgamated with that of Chessington around 1884. This part of the borough does seem to maintain a long term sense of 'belonging' to the slightly more urban area to the north. There were indeed only a few residents having their say, mostly from three farms that used the majority of the land around the main road at least until the early 1960s.

The Coal Tax Posts were placed on the boundary of the Metropolitan Police area, and the Met's boundary wasn't aligned with Greater London until the year 2000.
So, back in the 1860s the Metropolitan Police covered well out into the countryside!

 

[Enthusiast]

The folk in Gidea Park and Upminster think they are in Essex until told they would lose their Freedom Pass if they were in Essex.

Just think, they'd both have to pay to meet each other at Emerson Park!

 

[themeone]

For me it's the Greater London boundary. Beyond that, places vary in how "London facing" they are in terms of culture and commuting, which depends on how much employment is available locally as well as distance from London, and whether there's a distinctive local culture that's not based on being "near London".

For example Brighton seems far more London facing than either Portsmouth or Southampton, Epsom a lot more than Dartford, Guildford a lot more than Crawley.

But all very subjective of course.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I have a long-standing joke with my friends with whom I watch the football with.

Back in about 1998 we informally formed a London supporters group. Over the years members have moved far and wide, I am currently in Theobalds Grove Herts.

The members still living in town constantly rib me for not living in London, there opens the usual conversation around the metrics.

Telephone code - not London
Geography - outside M25, Herts
Rail zone - TFL 7
Postcode - London

So it’s a familiar amusing debate each time. I like to add the a London Council cut the grass in my front garden!

 

[Roger1973]

That opens up a fresh can of worms :

To complicate matters further, there are even more boundaries you could consider -

the 1899 county of London (later the Inner London Education Authority area) which went out as far as Abbey Wood in the south east, but only as far as Finsbury Park in the north)

The London post code areas (basically the compass points) - although these extended beyond the County of London, particularly in what was then 'metropolitan Essex' like East and West Ham, Walthamstow, Leyton etc.

The pre-1965 'Greater London' planning area which was bigger than the 1965 Greater London Council area

The 1965 Greater London Council Area which is pretty much the current Greater London Authority / London Boroughs area (one or two places were proposed to be included and put up a fight not to be - from memory, Epsom and Staines were part of the original plan) - there has been a small amount of tinkering at the edges since.

The original Metropolitan Police area (which was larger than the GLC area - when the 2000 Greater London Authority was formed, the police authority boundaries were changed to match.)

The London 'red bus' area (which extended some way outside the GLC area in the south west, but apart from the outlier 96 to Dartford, didn't cover the Crayford area.)

The London telephone code area

Inside the M25

All of these are different.

 

[Ediswan]

I have a long-standing joke with my friends with whom I watch the football with.

Back in about 1998 we informally formed a London supporters group. Over the years members have moved far and wide, I am currently in Theobalds Grove Herts.

The members still living in town constantly rib me for not living in London, there opens the usual conversation around the metrics.

Telephone code - not London
Geography - outside M25, Herts
Rail zone - TFL 7
Postcode - London

So it’s a familiar amusing debate each time. I like to add the a London Council cut the grass in my front garden!

The postcode for your area is EN. That is not a London postcode. The fact it shares its name with a London borough just adds to the confusion.

 

[REVUpminster]

Pre 1965 West Ham, East Ham, Leyton; everything east of the River Lea was Essex and looked to Chelmsford after their own borough Town Halls. North Woolwich was part of Kent. The Met Police area did go as far as Dagenham. Upminster, Romford were Essex police stations.

The ILEA did not cover West Ham and East Ham or the newly created Newham which education wise had to fend for itself.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The postcode for your area is EN. That is not a London postcode. The fact it shares its name with a London borough just adds to the confusion.

EN postcode is from Enfield, London.

I know EN8 isn’t London but the EN part is.

 

[BluePenguin]

EN postcode is from Enfield, London.

I know EN8 isn’t London but the EN part is.

That is not correct, places in Hertfordshire such as Cheshunt and Waltham Cross also fall under EN which are not London.

In contrast, there are towns in Bexley which are considered London with a DA post code, but Dartford is certainly Kent

 

[REVUpminster]

Postcodes relate to the sorting office. RM Romford covers a huge area in Essex. TQ Torquay, EX Exeter covers vast areas outside the respective towns.

Just looking at an address in Kingsbridge, 20 miles from Torquay and it's TQ7.

 

[nlogax]

The Coal Tax Posts were placed on the boundary of the Metropolitan Police area, and the Met's boundary wasn't aligned with Greater London until the year 2000.
So, back in the 1860s the Metropolitan Police covered well out into the countryside!

I do find this fascinating.. London has expanded while the Met has shrunk!

 

[VauxhallandI]

That is not correct, places in Hertfordshire such as Cheshunt and Waltham Cross also fall under EN which are not London.

In contrast, there are towns in Bexley which are considered London with a DA post code, but Dartford is certainly Kent

I know it’s not in London, I’ve lived there for 17 years!

Please read the context of my post which was a joke debate I have with my friends.

En is Enfield which is London

 

[BluePenguin]

I know it’s not in London, I’ve lived there for 17 years!

Please read the context of my post which was a joke debate I have with my friends.

En is Enfield which is London

Well that wasn’t made clear, context is easily lost in text form

I didn’t see what the joke was, or that you were speaking about an inside joke with friends

The only true London postcodes are those of compass points. But save that for another discussion and leave you to continue your joke…

 

[GusB]

The only true London postcodes are those of compass points. But save that for another discussion and leave you to continue your joke…

All the compass points except S and NE, of course...

 

[BluePenguin]

All the compass points except S and NE, of course...

Of course, as the good people of Sheffield and Newcastle will know lol

 

[Busaholic]

Orpington has superb transport links to London. One steps out of one's front door, and one is in London.


They do. All the London boroughs also have at least* one mayor of their own.

The extent of London isn't a matter of opinion. It's the London boroughs plus the City. Postcodes, dialling codes and whether or not people in Bromley put "Kent" in their address don't come into it.

*I say at least because I don't know whether those that have elected mayors also have a ceremonial mayor.

Have to agree with every word. Used to have a bookshop in the Walnuts (Kent Books) but commuted in from Hither Green.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Well that wasn’t made clear, context is easily lost in text form

I didn’t see what the joke was, or that you were speaking about an inside joke with friends

The only true London postcodes are those of compass points. But save that for another discussion and leave you to continue your joke…

Please see post #68.

If Enfield is in London and has an EN1 postcode are we saying Enfield isn’t in London despite being a London Borough?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

My definition of London, ignoring all official ones, would be just the bit between Kensington and Shoreditch, the river and Camden.
Westminster, Soho, Aldwich, City of London, are all practically the same town. Outside of this, every borough has it's own distinct town centre.

Commuterbelts are poorly defined as people in Paris might commute to London, while some in Watford might commute to Birmingham, and work patterns shift rapidly, as Covid pandemic showed with so many working from home.

As for urban areas, the sprawls is obviously divided into North and South of the river., two separated urban areas.

 

[Busaholic]

The London 'red bus' area (which extended some way outside the GLC area in the south west, but apart from the outlier 96 to Dartford, didn't cover the Crayford area.)

A little more nuanced, actually. The 96 bus route came about in 1959 as part of the first stage of the London trolleybus conversion programme, having previously been the 696 trolley, and before that a tram route, but Swanley, Farningham and even West Kingsdown in rural Kent for a time had always been served by red buses, indeed the trunk route 21 to Moorgate!

Showing off here, but I can lay claim to knowledge that the 698 trolleybus route also reached Crayford on occasion as an extension from Bexleyheath, though never publically timetabled as far as I'm aware.

 

[BluePenguin]

Please see post #68.

If Enfield is in London and has an EN1 postcode are we saying Enfield isn’t in London despite being a London Borough?

No, we are not saying that at all. I am saying that some places with London postcodes (because the post town is a London borough as is the case with Enfield) include places that are not in London. That was my point you see.

I read post 68 thanks. Anyway, have a good evening

 

[VauxhallandI]

No, we are not saying that at all. I am saying that some places with London postcodes (because the post town is a London borough as is the case with Enfield) include places that are not in London. That was my point you see.

I read post 68 thanks. Anyway, have a good evening

Don’t worry I’m not upset

Yes that’s beauty of it in that I can pull their leg that I have an Enfield postcode so I’m London

 

[Roger1973]

A little more nuanced, actually. The 96 bus route came about in 1959 as part of the first stage of the London trolleybus conversion programme, having previously been the 696 trolley, and before that a tram route, but Swanley, Farningham and even West Kingsdown in rural Kent for a time had always been served by red buses, indeed the trunk route 21 to Moorgate!

Showing off here, but I can lay claim to knowledge that the 698 trolleybus route also reached Crayford on occasion as an extension from Bexleyheath, though never publically timetabled as far as I'm aware.

Indeed - I was broadly trying to keep it simple. The 96 tram route once got as far as Horns Cross - a few miles short of the Gravesend tram network. There's an interesting 'what if' for what LT would have done if the Gravesend tram network had survived in to 1933.

And yes - there were a number of scheduled 'Extra' journeys that didn't keep to the normal route on the 698 - along with many other LT tram + trolleybus routes. Robert Harley's 'Woolwich and Dartford Trolleybuses' includes a timetable extract from 1943 for the 698 that includes 'special journeys' to and from Dartford. Most of these journeys were for a particular works' requirement - not sure if they appeared on roadside timetable panels, or if it was something people would find out about through their workplace / colleagues.

Yes that’s beauty of it in that I can pull their leg that I have an Enfield postcode so I’m London

I'd argue that EN postcodes are Middlesex rather than London - although it's some years since the post office have expected a county as well as post town on envelopes, but when they did, it would have been Enfield, Middlesex EN1, not Enfield, London EN1. Wikipedia says that "Mail for [the EN] area is sorted at the Home Counties North Mail Centre in Hemel Hempstead..."

Although postal districts have never entirely matched administrative counties, in particular with the post office continuing to use Middlesex as a county after 1965.

 

[etr221]

Although postal districts have never entirely matched administrative counties, in particular with the post office continuing to use Middlesex as a county after 1965.

Postcodes are allocated by the Royal Mail for their purposes, and pay no attention to local government boundaries (as such - geographical features may lead to PO and LG boundaries matching): in particular there are postcodes which cover adresses in both England and Scotland, and England and Wales - and if they can't make such distinctions, more local ones cannot be expected....

 

[Hadders]

There's a superb series on London's Peripheral post codes in Diamond Geezer's blog:

diamond geezer

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com

diamond geezer

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com

 

[Edvid]

And this post as well, which includes the fascinatingly-located Hatch End Grid Substation - contiguous with and accessed from the residential streets of South Oxhey (Herts), but actually located in Sylvia Avenue Open Space (London). The access gate is sited right on the border, as are the 132kV lines where they cross the WCML / Watford DC to the east.