Extra Cambrian and Heart of Wales servies -your experiences

[30907]

Leaving aside the realism check, I think the times at Craven Arms are very tight given the wrong-line working through the station. Shame!

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm not sure that's right. You are correct that there is too little stock to acheive very much, but even with more stock I'm not sure it would be possible to provide an ideal service without infrustructure enhancements too. For example, this:

I've tried to put together a timetable (available here) to illustrate what I thought might be a good timetable for the HOWL given plenty of resources (but trying to avoid infrustructure works, aside from facilities to stable two units overnight at Llandrindod Wells). Even with this rather resource-intensive timetable (it would require 5 units if implemented unless I've made a mistake somewhere) the nearest it gets to a 09:05 off Shrewsbury is nearer to 10:09 than 09:05.

Other drawbacks with my timetable (aside from the cost of 5 units) include:

• The 05:12 from Shrewsbury has a very long wait at Llandrindod to pass an oncoming service (but since this is at ECS timings does it matter?)
• Apart from that, there is basically zero recovery time at the passing loops...
• ... but a crazy amount at the termini (whether you could interwork to make better use of these units I have not yet investigated)

Can anyone see any more problems with my proposal? I don't think there are any head-on collisions on single track (train graph here) but I might have missed one or two.

You haven't adddressed the problem that is believed to have caused the drop in passenger numbers and which has been documented already, i.e. retiming trains to run at unsuitable times.

 

[anthony263]

Really once more stock is available why not return to the old timetable and if possible run some short working between the longer distance service such as Swansea - Llandeilo and Llandrindod - Shrewsbury.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm not sure that's right. You are correct that there is too little stock to acheive very much, but even with more stock I'm not sure it would be possible to provide an ideal service without infrustructure enhancements too. For example, this:

I've tried to put together a timetable (available here) to illustrate what I thought might be a good timetable for the HOWL given plenty of resources (but trying to avoid infrustructure works, aside from facilities to stable two units overnight at Llandrindod Wells). Even with this rather resource-intensive timetable (it would require 5 units if implemented unless I've made a mistake somewhere) the nearest it gets to a 09:05 off Shrewsbury is nearer to 10:09 than 09:05.

Other drawbacks with my timetable (aside from the cost of 5 units) include:

• The 05:12 from Shrewsbury has a very long wait at Llandrindod to pass an oncoming service (but since this is at ECS timings does it matter?)
• Apart from that, there is basically zero recovery time at the passing loops...
• ... but a crazy amount at the termini (whether you could interwork to make better use of these units I have not yet investigated)

Can anyone see any more problems with my proposal? I don't think there are any head-on collisions on single track (train graph here) but I might have missed one or two.

I can see you've gone to a lot of effort so fair play to you!

One issue other than the one PHILIPE rightly brought up is that you'll need to adjust times at crossing points. Even when trains are merely exchanging tokens and not crossing other services you need to factor in about 3 minutes per crossing point.
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I've also not had time to check what the train crew impact would be - but bear in mind they have to get back to Shrewsbury or Llanelli within a set time to allow for breaks and they're already fairly close to the limit going to Llanwrtyd and back - unless you're hoping they'll open a depot at Llandrindod,which I can't ever see happening.

 

[Llanigraham]

Where are you going to stable units at Llan'dod? There is no where and no land to build anything.
Where are the drivers going to come from? The nearest depots would require taxis to get them there.

 

[Gareth Marston]

What's the point of having the Heart of Wales open if it's not resourced to be of use to the communities along it?

 

[Llanigraham]

Because it is a diversionary route, which I thought you would know.

 

[185143]

I can see you've gone to a lot of effort so fair play to you!

One issue other than the one PHILIPE rightly brought up is that you'll need to adjust times at crossing points. Even when trains are merely exchanging tokens and not crossing other services you need to factor in about 3 minutes per crossing point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've also not had time to check what the train crew impact would be - but bear in mind they have to get back to Shrewsbury or Llanelli within a set time to allow for breaks and they're already fairly close to the limit going to Llanwrtyd and back - unless you're hoping they'll open a depot at Llandrindod,which I can't ever see happening.

Why not? Wick has a traincrew depot! (And fewer trains with the early Shrewsbury-Llandrindod return)

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[craigybagel]

What's the point of having the Heart of Wales open if it's not resourced to be of use to the communities along it?

It was out very good use under the old timetable.

Why not? Wick has a traincrew depot! (And fewer trains with the early Shrewsbury-Llandrindod return)

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Wick is a pretty extreme case, with it being 4 hours by Rail from the nearest alternative. The costs of setting up and maintaining a depot at Llandrindod would be astronomical compared to the limited return. And as Llanigraham points out, there isn't space for one anyway.

 

[Gareth Marston]

We can see why the Heart of Wales Line Forum and the RUG HOWLTA have been very quite - I think they knew this was on the cards when they saw what was proposed - contrast this with the Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Line Liaison Committees almost self congratulatory tone.

In contrast to the HOW the extra trains on the Cambrian mainline have helped generate an extra 2000 journeys a week.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Where are you going to stable units at Llan'dod? There is no where and no land to build anything.
Where are the drivers going to come from? The nearest depots would require taxis to get them there.

I'm sure I'm not the first person to propose that. There is a staff depot at Pwllheli (and a unit stabled there) isn't there? Why can't the same be done at Llandrindod? As for no space, there are already two platform lines and a stabling siding (the latter used for Royal Welsh Show trains I believe); given I'm only proposing two units parked there overnight I don't see the need for any additional track.

You haven't adddressed the problem that is believed to have caused the drop in passenger numbers and which has been documented already, i.e. retiming trains to run at unsuitable times.

That is very possibly a fair criticism, since I don't really know what times are suitable and what aren't, other than the morning commuting service into Shrewsbury. That problem was pointed out on here when the new timetable was introduced and as such I have tried to address that (my timetable has the first arrival in Shrewsbury only 8 minutes earlier than the December 2014 timetable).

you'll need to adjust times at crossing points. Even when trains are merely exchanging tokens and not crossing other services you need to factor in about 3 minutes per crossing point.

Three minutes dwell time for a non-passing service at the loops then; how much time needs to be allowed for stock to pass each other (and does the same apply at places like Tenby and Haverfordwest or does it depend on the singalling system used)?

 

[Gareth Marston]

HOWL and HOWTA have always pushed for Llandovery as the stabling point.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Really once more stock is available why not return to the old timetable and if possible run some short working between the longer distance service such as Swansea - Llandeilo and Llandrindod - Shrewsbury.

I suspect returning to the old service would cause howls (sorry) of protest. And, furthermore, would not solve the problem, which I suspect is a case of "shutting the shed door after the 153 has bolted"

First of all, I suspect that, had they kept the old service, it would have seen declining numbers in any case. Sure, not 9%, but maybe 3-4%, that's the way things are on rural railways like this.

But they did change the service. From what has been written here, the line obviously had a number of regular passenger, what might be called 'die-hards' who, while they did not consider the service ideal, had adjusted their lives to live with it.

The earlier morning departure to Shrewsbury probably proved to be half an hour too early for comfort, and some refused to change, finding an alternative method of travel. (Ditto if there was the odd commuter to Llanelli from Amannford et on the old service.)

I suspect that if the former 4 trains a day service were reinstated, most of these passengers would not, in fact, return.

Meanwhile, any such change would p%"" off those regulars that the new commuter trains have managed to attract (there has to be some, surely?).

The old 4 trains-per-day service must have been really inefficient (and still is, I assume, on Saturdays) - surely the v early morning departures must have run virtually empty stock until they left Llandod.

But, if they returned to the old service with the addition of 3 shuttle trains each way at the southern and northern ends of the line, including a commuter service into Swansea, and a return train around 17.00 from each end to boot, then you could get the best of both worlds. It would need two more units though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

HOWL and HOWTA have always pushed for Llandovery as the stabling point.

Why Llandovery? The mid point of the line is around about Llangammarch I think so the most logical place to stable units overnight to cut down on the morning/evening ECS would probably be Llanwrtyd Wells. When messing around with HOWL timetables, I've always aimed to get a commuter arrival in both Swansea and Shrewsbury from the two passing loop stations nearest this midpoint (Llanwrtyd and Llandrindod). Thus, it was a choice of stable the two units at Llanwrtyd and run both to Llandrindod with one unit continuing to Shrewsbury and the other turning back to head for Swansea, or vice versa. However, the larger population of Llandrindod means you might actually have a chance of finding staff for the trains compared to Llanwrtyd. Just a shame that the town of Builth Wells is where it is and not at Builth Road station, otherwise that would probably be the ideal stabling point for the HOWL.

Using Llandovery as the stabling point would presumably mean an ECS working would still be needed from Shrewsbury to Llandrindod to form the morning peak service back to Shrewsbury, and places between Llandovery and Llandrindod would have no commuting options to Swansea or Shrewsbury.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm sure I'm not the first person to propose that. There is a staff depot at Pwllheli (and a unit stabled there) isn't there? Why can't the same be done at Llandrindod?

The depot at Pwllheli has always been there - setting up a new depot at Llandrindod would cost a fortune. You'd almost certainly have to train staff from scratch, and then there's the cost of setting up and maintaining facilities for them. Also, until recently Pwllheli was a ridiculously inefficient depot, with 6 staff for each grade covering 2 jobs per day meaning they were often only working trains 2 days a week. Things have improved lately only by increasing the depot size to 9 and having them work Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury trains.

The costs would be huge and given that financially the line is a basket case, and part of a franchise that needs investment all across the network, you'd struggle to justify it.

Three minutes dwell time for a non-passing service at the loops then; how much time needs to be allowed for stock to pass each other (and does the same apply at places like Tenby and Haverfordwest or does it depend on the singalling system used)?

Tenby yes, it uses the same signalling system. Haverfordwest no - I believe there's still a box there? In either case it has real signals rather than stop boards and tpws indicators fitted on the HOWL and Pembroke Dock branch.

I believe they normally timetable about 7 minutes - although times are so flexible down there with request stops I can't remember off hand and I don't have the working time table to hand. Part of the time will be taken by crew changeovers as well, which take place at the moment on all the services crossing at Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why Llandovery? The mid point of the line is around about Llangammarch I think so the most logical place to stable units overnight to cut down on the morning/evening ECS would probably be Llanwrtyd Wells. When messing around with HOWL timetables, I've always aimed to get a commuter arrival in both Swansea and Shrewsbury from the two passing loop stations nearest this midpoint (Llanwrtyd and Llandrindod). Thus, it was a choice of stable the two units at Llanwrtyd and run both to Llandrindod with one unit continuing to Shrewsbury and the other turning back to head for Swansea, or vice versa. However, the larger population of Llandrindod means you might actually have a chance of finding staff for the trains compared to Llanwrtyd. Just a shame that the town of Builth Wells is where it is and not at Builth Road station, otherwise that would probably be the ideal stabling point for the HOWL.

Using Llandovery as the stabling point would presumably mean an ECS working would still be needed from Shrewsbury to Llandrindod to form the morning peak service back to Shrewsbury, and places between Llandovery and Llandrindod would have no commuting options to Swansea or Shrewsbury.

It strikes me that you know little about the area around the HoWL!
Llangammarch Wells is a small station and passing place, in a small village. There is no-where to stable anything.
Ditto Llanwrtyd. People don't take "the waters" any more.
The largest employer in Llan'dod is Powys County Council, together with a large retired population, plus some small industrial units. As has been stated there is no room to build anywhere to store and service any "overnight" units. I doubt many people commute from there to Shrewsbury or Swansea regularly.
At least Llandovery has a small and reasonably secure yard, often used to stable tampers etc.
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3 minutes dwell time would be pushing your luck when you consider that at some stations the driver has to get out of the train to press a plunger and/or exchange a token.

 

[headshot119]

The depot at Pwllheli has always been there - setting up a new depot at Llandrindod would cost a fortune. You'd almost certainly have to train staff from scratch, and then there's the cost of setting up and maintaining facilities for them. Also, until recently Pwllheli was a ridiculously inefficient depot, with 6 staff for each grade covering 2 jobs per day meaning they were often only working trains 2 days a week. Things have improved lately only by increasing the depot size to 9 and having them work Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury trains.

The costs would be huge and given that financially the line is a basket case, and part of a franchise that needs investment all across the network, you'd struggle to justify it.



Tenby yes, it uses the same signalling system. Haverfordwest no - I believe there's still a box there? In either case it has real signals rather than stop boards and tpws indicators fitted on the HOWL and Pembroke Dock branch.

I believe they normally timetable about 7 minutes - although times are so flexible down there with request stops I can't remember off hand and I don't have the working time table to hand. Part of the time will be taken by crew changeovers as well, which take place at the moment on all the services crossing at Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod.

Haverfordwest is Track Circuit Block controlled from Clarbeston Road signal box. As you say Tenby is the same signalling system as the HOWL so needs the extended dwell times to factor in walking to sort out tokens.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Given the time of year, I can't help but compare the can-do attitude of SWT with the seeming inability of ATW to show even a little bit entrepreneurial nouse with the HoWL, most particularly at the southern end.

Take today - Saturday, 10 Dec - a fortnight before Christmas. Would today not be an ideal day to test the waters regarding the traffic potential between Llandovery/Llandeilo/Ammanford/Pantyffynnon and Swansea by running an extra 'shoppers' special' timetable, with, say, 4 extra shuttles serving the southern end of the line?

I'm not saying they all need to go Swansea-Llandovery. some could turn at Llandeilo or Ammanford depending on timetabling/crewing needs. (assuming, that is, the signalling allows a train to terminate and reverse at the latter station - I assume that's possible?)

All the more so with Swansea FC having a Premier League game, KO 15.00, at home? (Not sure if there are any big rugby games on too, perhaps?)

I'm sure ATW could find a dozen reasons for NOT attempting such a service - (stock and crew shortages, you may shout?) but contrast this with SWT's efforts to drum up passengers between Weymouth and Salisbury, via Yeovil Pen Mill.

 

[Llanigraham]

Given the time of year, I can't help but compare the can-do attitude of SWT with the seeming inability of ATW to show even a little bit entrepreneurial nouse with the HoWL, most particularly at the southern end.

Take today - Saturday, 10 Dec - a fortnight before Christmas. Would today not be an ideal day to test the waters regarding the traffic potential between Llandovery/Llandeilo/Ammanford/Pantyffynnon and Swansea by running an extra 'shoppers' special' timetable, with, say, 4 extra shuttles serving the southern end of the line?

I'm not saying they all need to go Swansea-Llandovery. some could turn at Llandeilo or Ammanford depending on timetabling/crewing needs. (assuming, that is, the signalling allows a train to terminate and reverse at the latter station - I assume that's possible?)

All the more so with Swansea FC having a Premier League game, KO 15.00, at home? (Not sure if there are any big rugby games on too, perhaps?)

I'm sure ATW could find a dozen reasons for NOT attempting such a service - (stock and crew shortages, you may shout?) but contrast this with SWT's efforts to drum up passengers between Weymouth and Salisbury, via Yeovil Pen Mill.

One very simple reason: they do not have the stock or the staff to do so. It is as simple as that.

 

[craigybagel]

They don't have enough trains to run the timetabled services at the moment, never mind extras. Entrepreneurial doesn't even come in to it. Meanwhile SWT is routinely able to hire out it's fleet to other companies and still have enough stock to run a full timetable and more.

 

[70014IronDuke]

They don't have enough trains to run the timetabled services at the moment, never mind extras. Entrepreneurial doesn't even come in to it....

OK, I hadn't realised ATW were so desperately stretched, at least, not on a winter Saturday.

That is, presumably, more down to the DfT than ATW, in terms of what they can hire?

 

[craigybagel]

OK, I hadn't realised ATW were so desperately stretched, at least, not on a winter Saturday.

That is, presumably, more down to the DfT than ATW, in terms of what they can hire?

Partly down to 13 years of a no growth franchise, partly down to a nationwide shortage of DMU's.

 

[PHILIPE]

OK, I hadn't realised ATW were so desperately stretched, at least, not on a winter Saturday.

That is, presumably, more down to the DfT than ATW, in terms of what they can hire?

Not desperately stretched. That's an undertatement. Passengers are being left behind at stations. On Saturdays, almost just as bad due to the many events and 2 Car Units on the Marches.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Just had committee member from HOWLTA in office this morning his comment on extra trains & footfall was "what to do you expect with a crap service"

 

[70014IronDuke]

Just had committee member from HOWLTA in office this morning his comment on extra trains & footfall was "what to do you expect with a crap service"

A comment that is as succinct as it is useless.

What does he mean?

a) that a service of five trains a day (for some stations), four for others is crap, ie not attractive to potential passengers. (In which case he is right, of course - but we all know that.)

b) That the new service runs at times which are less attractive to passengers than previously, and therefore the new service is crap (vis-a-vis the old)?

c) That the new service is less reliable than previously, for whatever reason?

Perhaps you could get him back into the office to clarify? Otherwise, I'd say it is a "crap comment" - meaning 'lazy'.

 

[Gareth Marston]

A comment that is as succinct as it is useless.

What does he mean?

a) that a service of five trains a day (for some stations), four for others is crap, ie not attractive to potential passengers. (In which case he is right, of course - but we all know that.)

b) That the new service runs at times which are less attractive to passengers than previously, and therefore the new service is crap (vis-a-vis the old)?

c) That the new service is less reliable than previously, for whatever reason?

Perhaps you could get him back into the office to clarify? Otherwise, I'd say it is a "crap comment" - meaning 'lazy'.

a & b plus well throw in d) lengthy waits at passing loops

 

[Jez]

On Saturday night the last Swanline service (Swansea-Cardiff) appeared to be a 3 car 175. This is usually formed of the last service from Shrewsbury-Swansea via the HOW line. Was this what formed the HOW service on Saturday or did the set get swapped at Swansea for some reason?

I know 175s have turned up on HOW in the past but its very very rare.

 

[PHILIPE]

On Saturday night the last Swanline service (Swansea-Cardiff) appeared to be a 3 car 175. This is usually formed of the last service from Shrewsbury-Swansea via the HOW line. Was this what formed the HOW service on Saturday or did the set get swapped at Swansea for some reason?

I know 175s have turned up on HOW in the past but its very very rare.

You would be more likely to receive a reply if you posted the query as to what worked the train on the "TOPS Request Thread".

EDIT:- ' Forget my request, Is not the same train on a Saturday