Brunel
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I wonder what would have happened if First Group was running the new franchise? As they were planning the same service as VT. The excuse given by NR is rather lame.
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Extra Virgin West Coast services rejected by NR
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tbtc
Veteran Member
I think that we'd see a queue of people wanting to blame FirstGroup for things not working out, were that to happen
87015
Established Member
Is it? The WCML fast lines take an absolute hammering as there are more track battering heavy trains than ever yet maintenance windows are available less are less, the bills for disruption to NR get bigger and bigger as more trains = greater knock ons = less resilience. You can't really have it both ways.
Given the state of their finances, I suspect they would have handed the keys back by now.
merlodlliw
Established Member
After a long silence and the takeover by Arriva/DB it's interesting they have surfaced with detailed comments.
I take this to mean that DB are staying with the Open Access sector.
I hope they are serious, because otherwise they are just queering the pitch for genuine improvements by established TOCs.
Sooner or later they will be asked by ORR to put up or shut up.
Residents of Shrewsbury and Blackpool (like those of Wrexham and Lockerbie) should also note that any VT services they get are OA and not in any sense guaranteed by the DfT
the Wrexham service by VT is open access, using franchise stock & can be pulled at anytime. In your earlier thread, the ATW London service was blocked by ORR due to ATW fudging figures.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Well no actually. Network Rail have rejected plans for additional London Midland services and open access operator applications saying that they'll have to wait until the next WCML recast, so why should they then give Virgin extra paths ahead of the next WCML recast? Virgin have also complained about TPE being given paths for extra Scottish services from December, citing that it shouldn't have been allowed to happen ahead of the next WCML recast.
A key difference between First's WC proposals and Virgin's is that First were to order additional trains, which would create more flexibility in diagramming. Virgin's plan was to replace the Voyagers with the same number of electric trains and use new diesel locos for non-electrified track like Shrewsbury.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
After reading the stuff on the ORR site a bit further, the more recent VT letters infer that the Shrewsbury/Blackpool services are likely to figure in the new (2017) ICWC Service Level agreement which is being negotiated with DfT.
If they do appear as franchise commitments it changes the access picture somewhat.
NR would then have to treat the application as part of the ICWC baseline rather than just as a speculative bid for Open Access paths.
I also see that DB Schenker and Freightliner (especially) objected to the paths on the grounds it would clog up the 2/3-track sections of the WCML and consume capacity that might be needed for freight growth in the future.
It demonstrates how difficult it is to get anything done on the regulated railway when everybody leaps up and objects to anything new.
RochdalePioneers
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I know the West Coast is congested, but do we really need 20 minute frequency to Manchester off peak? How much capacity would be freed up by going to "only" half hourly?
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merlodlliw
Established Member
Are you suggesting taking one of the via Stoke On Trent runs out. The via Crewe was put in due to most Liverpool trains not stopping at Crewe.
Off peaks tend to run less full on all lines.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Personally I'd say no. The 3tph to Manchester partly relates to a campaign backed by George Osborne for Wilmslow to have regular London services. Virgin introduced a load of 'Virgin only' local tickets to fill up empty seats north of Stoke and Crewe, while real local services had to be reduced in frequency to allow more paths for Virgin.
I personally think the Alliance proposed idea of Huddersfield-Stockport-London (via Crewe) is a much better one than the 3rd Manchester-Wilmslow-London train.
Metrailway
Member
I travel between Euston and Manchester regularly, and in my humble opinion 2tph is enough for the route.
Masboroughlad
Established Member
The West Coast needs some Open Access services soon. Innovation is stifled by Network Rail.
Geezertronic
Established Member
Would they let OA operators run trains if they deny requests for VT to operate extra trains?
gordonthemoron
Established Member
No, any spare capacity should be used for extra London Midland services between Euston-Northampton/Birmingham
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Remember that through LM services between Euston and Birmingham or Crewe are effectively open-access because through services aren't required as part of the franchise requirements.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
According to the WCML RUS it isn't and it could be split up if pathing becomes more difficult.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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It is not Network Rail that is "stifling innovation"... it is the laws of physics.
You can't fit a quart into a pint pot.
You can't fit a quart into a pint pot.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The Wilmslow service is also a key part of the 2tph at Crewe (connectivity to all parts).
It's as busy as any of the other Euston-Manchester services, packed at times.
The first Manchester to go during disruption is always the one via Stoke that misses out Macc.
The 3tph is not going to change unless DfT changes the spec.
The RUS even talks about 4tph (in terms of where the 10th WCML path should go).
gordonthemoron
Established Member
I got the 20:29 Crewe to MK (ex Manchester Picadilly) last night and it was rather busy, certainly more than I'm used to on Pendolinos. Not full and standing but probably over 50% seated in 2nd class
northwichcat
Veteran Member
One off-peak train I was on between Euston and Crewe had just 15 passengers in standard class.
That'll probably disrupt passengers with Virgin only tickets the most. The people with Virgin only Wilmslow-Manchester tickets would have a 2 hour gap in service and I can't see Northern or ATW wanting to accept those tickets given they directly reduce the amount of revenue going to Northern and ATW and Northern complained to the ORR about them.
Virgin can also stop other services at Milton Keynes during disruption if required - they can't exactly get Liverpool services to serve Wilmslow during disruption.
SprinterMan
Established Member
Sorry if I have missed something, but have the Blackpool services now been axed also? The thread title has changed :P
Adam
Adam
gordonthemoron
Established Member
Which the have done for all recent disruptions, as opposed to LM who cancel everything in sight because they say they haven't got any trains
merlodlliw
Established Member
Sorry if I have missed something, but have the Blackpool services now been axed also? The thread title has changed :P
Adam
The announcement was made within hours of the Shrewsbury axe.
route:oxford
Established Member
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Do you think it would have been better to operate the service as an ECS move instead?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I've seen the return working for that service at Stockport on numerous occasions and the standard class loading would still fit on a class 153 even though it's not quite as quiet as the northbound working. Virgin have also since upgraded the diagram from a 9 coach Pendolino to an 11 coach Pendolino!
Although, if the service didn't run there would obviously be less dirt cheap Advance fares.
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Geezertronic
Established Member
That is surely to fit in with the peak loading service pattern isn't it?
SprinterMan
Established Member
northwichcat
Veteran Member
It's actually a Saturday working I'm referring to so technically there is no peak. I can only assume the same diagram has a busy morning service and then the 11 car Pendolino works a diagram that doesn't have a busy late afternoon/evening service.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
all the Euston-Manchester Saturday services I've travelled on (mainly via Stoke) are very lightly loaded
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