Fairest way to deal with expired railcards **Not a specific dispute**

[najaB]

This isn't related to a specific dispute but on the back of a rash of threads recently where people have been travelling with expired railcards I thought it might be worth a bit of discussion in the abstract. (Mods, please move if not appropriate).

Three questions to start the discussion:

• What is the industry guidance for dealing with expired railcards? I know that there's a policy in place for passengers who possess a valid card which they don't have on them at the time, but I'm not aware of a standard policy for expired cards.
• From those in the industry - both guards/RPIs and those who deal with prosecution investigation, what policies do you follow? Is there any difference between a card that has just expired (e.g. a week or two) vs one that's months out of date?
• If there isn't a standard process, what suggestions can we come up with for a fair way to handle these scenarios - balancing passenger considerations and revenue protection?

Thoughts?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the best way of avoiding this problem would be that automatic renewal direct debit is offered as a method of payment, and that use of that method is incentivised by a small discount. Most Railcard users want to continue holding one (unless they become no longer eligible).

That way a new card would be sent/downloaded automatically, and forgetting to renew would be a thing of the past.

The railway might also get some more income through inertia. At present, renewal takes a deliberate action. With auto-renewal DD, cancellation takes a deliberate action.

 

[Desperate]

Trainline mobile app should apply more strict way to verify railcards when people use it. Why do you want to allow people to use it unknowingly…

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm assuming we're allowed not to go for 'give the user the benefit of the doubt'? If we go down that route, then no-one will renew their railcard: I suppose there could be an option of allow travel, but the inspector retains the railcard to avoid future journeys - and that would be tricky with online cards...

Otherwise, there's two issues - the short term problem because renewal reminders haven't been issued / holders haven't realised that their card has expired, and the long term issue of people buying railcard discounted tickets when they don't have the appropriate ticket to travel.

For the short term, it seems to me that RDG would do everyone a favour by issuing an email to every railcard holder who would be due a reminder: this might be disguised as a promotion ('welcome back to rail' or whatever) but should clearly give the message - check that your railcard is valid before travelling. This won't be perfect - some people won't read their emails, other people may have declined all emails from RDG - but it should adequately warn at least some people.

For the long term, I can't see much alternative to having to give details of what railcard you hold when you book a ticket. This would be a nuisance - I renew my Two Together card before I travel, not before I book our tickets - but would broadly be a return to the situation before the internet, when you needed to present your railcard at the ticket office to buy a ticket. I can also see difficulties implementing it on ticket machines (an additional screen on the internet requiring reference number for the railcard should surely be possible).

 

[etr221]

I think both Bletchleyite's idea of automatic renewal via direct debit, and Desperate's of much more verification that railcards are valid before tickets are sold have a lot to commend them.

Thought following a recent thread: if I buy - and the railway sells me - a ticket while having an expired railcard, surely that is evidence against me intending to avoid paying the fare; and if I have commited an offence, then has the railway aided and abetted me in doing so?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could TVMs be provided with a QR scanners, and Railcards printed with a QR code, so you'd scan the one you intend to use to buy a ticket with it? That way you couldn't select the wrong one, either. There would be other benefits of "intelligent" TVMs having QR scanners, such as allowing them to be used to change an Advance ticket rather than just issue one.

Online it's easy enough, enter the number on purchase, no different to entering your easyJet Plus card number when booking a flight and then showing it on departure too.

 

[Horizon22]

Trainline mobile app should apply more strict way to verify railcards when people use it. Why do you want to allow people to use it unknowingly…

I agree. Should be an option to load a railcard onto Trainline as a separate system with some form of verification. This would have the added benefit of telling someone when it expires too.

I think both Bletchleyite's idea of automatic renewal via direct debit, and Desperate's of much more verification that railcards are valid before tickets are sold have a lot to commend them.

Thought following a recent thread: if I buy - and the railway sells me - a ticket while having an expired railcard, surely that is evidence against me intending to avoid paying the fare; and if I have commited an offence, then has the railway aided and abetted me in doing so?

There have been several threads in the Disputes & Prosecutions section of people taking journeys completely forgetting their railcards were now expired - we have to take these people at face value of course. As Desperate mentioned, if there was some one-time verification required to set a railcard discount via Trainline or whatever, this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Dai Corner]

Or make purchasers enter the Railcard expiry date when buying tickets online or at TVMs? That should eliminate the "I didn't realise it had expired" cases.

 

[30907]

1. Prevention: as well as a reminder mail for online issues, a check-box on all booking sites, apps and TVMs to confirm that the railcards selected are valid for the date/s of travel.

2. After the event: for a first time, a UFN for the appropriate full walk up fare, with the holder's details going on record so that a repeat is prosecuted (or at least considered for it).

Long-time readers will be aware that this is not a post-pandemic problem, though it may have been exacerbated; I would also suspect (purely from this forum) that the majority of cases involve 16-25/26-30 railcards.

 

[matt_world2004]

ETMs to have some kind of verification model for railcards which requires the number to be entered and a refusal to retail a railcard discounted ticket after the expiry date

 

[najaB]

Or make purchasers enter the Railcard expiry date when buying tickets online or at TVMs? That should eliminate the "I didn't realise it had expired" cases.

That will stop the problem of expired railcards on the day, but what about when people are purchasing tickets far in advance? I guess there could be a "I know my card isn't valid and I'm buying it anyway" option.

 

[py_megapixel]

Issue railcards with RFID chips and Aztec codes. At TVMs and ticket offices, the railcard should be tapped on an RFID reader. When buying tickets over the internet, scan the code with the device's camera. For the small number of cases where neither of those options works, print an ID number somewhere on the card that can be keyed in manually. And make it a condition of RDG accreditation that a ticketing system cannot issue a railcard ticket unless a valid railcard has been scanned, tapped or keyed in.

Problem solved.

 

[Dai Corner]

That will stop the problem of expired railcards on the day, but what about when people are purchasing tickets far in advance? I guess there could be a "I know my card isn't valid and I'm buying it anyway" option.

I was thinking of it more as a reminder to the forgetful purchaser and preventing a fraudulent one from claiming to be forgetful when detected.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I previously ordered a railcard (for a friend who doesn't have internet access) which became due for renewal last month. Got an e-mail reminder at the beginning of October from <[email protected]> saying that it was about to expire and another at the end of October saying that it had now expired. Strange that many folk have been reporting non-receipt of their reminders.

 

[Watershed]

Issue railcards with RFID chips and Aztec codes. At TVMs and ticket offices, the railcard should be tapped on an RFID reader. When buying tickets over the internet, scan the code with the device's camera. For the small number of cases where neither of those options works, print an ID number somewhere on the card that can be keyed in manually. And make it a condition of RDG accreditation that a ticketing system cannot issue a railcard ticket unless a valid railcard has been scanned, tapped or keyed in.

Problem solved.

This is just about the only failsafe solution; unfortunately whilst it's passenger friendly, the industry has little to gain - and a lot of costs to expend - if it were to be implemented.

In the current situation, failure to produce a valid Railcard can result in a wide range of financial penalties - ranging from having to pay an excess or buy an undiscounted new ticket, to paying a Penalty Fare, an out of court "settlement" or "costs" upon conviction. I imagine that actually rather suits everyone except the unlucky passengers.

 

[gnolife]

That will stop the problem of expired railcards on the day, but what about when people are purchasing tickets far in advance? I guess there could be a "I know my card isn't valid and I'm buying it anyway" option.

Have it be possible to buy Railcards to start at some point in the future, or to buy a new Railcard to start immediately and get a pro rata refund of leftover time on the old one (this is to try and prevent problems if people want to buy Railcard discounted advances after their existing card expires, assuming that they continue to be eligible)

 

[island]

Thought following a recent thread: if I buy - and the railway sells me - a ticket while having an expired railcard, surely that is evidence against me intending to avoid paying the fare; and if I have commited an offence, then has the railway aided and abetted me in doing so?

Aiding and abetting can only apply to indictable offences, so this question doesn’t arise.

 

[MikeWh]

I previously ordered a railcard (for a friend who doesn't have internet access) which became due for renewal last month. Got an e-mail reminder at the beginning of October from <[email protected]> saying that it was about to expire and another at the end of October saying that it had now expired. Strange that many folk have been reporting non-receipt of their reminders.

They may have restarted sending reminders, but during the lock downs they definitely were not sending them.

 

[4COR]

I would agree with the comments around the process of either scanning/tapping at TVM, or entering serial number plus check code of some sort to cross check at purchase time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I should note that I did inadvertently travel several times over about 2 weeks on an expired Railcard before it was spotted, this was in the late 90s. Fortunately a member of ticket office staff spotted it and I renewed on the spot. So even when it was meant to be checked it wasn't always.

 

[Llanigraham]

To me the best way of avoiding this problem would be that automatic renewal direct debit is offered as a method of payment, and that use of that method is incentivised by a small discount. Most Railcard users want to continue holding one (unless they become no longer eligible).

That way a new card would be sent/downloaded automatically, and forgetting to renew would be a thing of the past.

The railway might also get some more income through inertia. At present, renewal takes a deliberate action. With auto-renewal DD, cancellation takes a deliberate action.

That would be a problem with a Disabled Person's Card when you have to "certify" that the reason it has been awarded is still current.

Issue railcards with RFID chips and Aztec codes. At TVMs and ticket offices, the railcard should be tapped on an RFID reader. When buying tickets over the internet, scan the code with the device's camera. For the small number of cases where neither of those options works, print an ID number somewhere on the card that can be keyed in manually. And make it a condition of RDG accreditation that a ticketing system cannot issue a railcard ticket unless a valid railcard has been scanned, tapped or keyed in.

Problem solved.

Is it? That presumes that every rail card is recorded on every ticket retailers system, or that there is a link to a central register, and as far as I know that isn't the case, since there are so many different variations of card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be a problem with a Disabled Person's Card when you have to "certify" that the reason it has been awarded is still current.

That it doesn't work for one of the Railcards isn't a reason not to do it for all the others, certainly those you can't become ineligible for (Family, Senior, Network, Two Together).

 

[AlterEgo]

That it doesn't work for one of the Railcards isn't a reason not to do it for all the others, certainly those you can't become ineligible for (Family, Senior, Network, Two Together).

My experience with my DSB railcard is that I have never been asked on renewal to supply any proof of entitlement. Only upon first purchase.

 

[1955LR]

If you buy a railcard over the counter at a ticket office, do you get a reminder, or is that only if bought online?

 

[cuccir]

Or make purchasers enter the Railcard expiry date when buying tickets online or at TVMs? That should eliminate the "I didn't realise it had expired" cases.

That will stop the problem of expired railcards on the day, but what about when people are purchasing tickets far in advance? I guess there could be a "I know my card isn't valid and I'm buying it anyway" option.

This seems the simplest fix for me: you have to either enter the expiry date, or select "I will obtain a railcard". It serves to remind the forgetful and incrimiante the malicious.

 

[island]

Prior to digital/plastic railcards this could have been accomplished by the guard clipping the physical Railcard to show that someone had used their "one chance", but it's more difficult now.

 

[Haywain]

This seems the simplest fix for me: you have to either enter the expiry date, or select "I will obtain a railcard". It serves to remind the forgetful and incrimiante the malicious.

Should this then be recorded somewhere? And what's to stop someone just putting in a random date or clicking the I will obtain a railcard option? What do you do about dates that fall, between the outward date of travel and the potential return date up to a month later? I think, that this idea fails to accept that people have a tendency to click on whatever gets them through the transaction in the quickest way, and in any case TVMs are constantly being criticised for having too many steps in the ticket buying process.

 

[spyinthesky]

My dim view is if I turn up at the airport without my passport or an expired one I don’t board the plane.
With rail journeys there is a basis of trust that a passenger has valid travel up to the point when challenged.
People who just forget are no different using my money for their subsidised travel.

 

[Dai Corner]

Should this then be recorded somewhere? And what's to stop someone just putting in a random date or clicking the I will obtain a railcard option? What do you do about dates that fall, between the outward date of travel and the potential return date up to a month later? I think, that this idea fails to accept that people have a tendency to click on whatever gets them through the transaction in the quickest way, and in any case TVMs are constantly being criticised for having too many steps in the ticket buying process.

When I originally posted this idea I didn't envisage the TVM/website/app necessarily doing anything with the date. An honest person would check that the railcard's validity covered the entire journey(s) being purchased. A fraudulent one would be 'bang to rights' if later found to be holding no card or an out of date one as he couldn't deny knowingly doing so.

Printing the date on the tickets or including it in a confirmatory email would reinforce this though.

 

[Watershed]

People who just forget are no different using my money for their subsidised travel.

Given how heavily subsidised the industry is, you could say that about almost every rail passenger. And particularly those using cheap Advance fares.

Where do you draw the line?