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FANTASY: Your Own Fictional Open-Access Operator

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Doomotron

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I recently came up with a new idea for an open-access operator, but couldn't post it in the original thread since the admins here seem to want to lock every old thread, forcing us to make new ones. Oh well, I guess this can replace it (until this one gets inevitably locked). My new idea is for an ECT-style budget operator that serves three purposes:
  • Provide a budget operator on the London-Glasgow route, as a direct competitor to East Coast Trains.
  • Provide long-distance express services to Bolton and other places, particularly those on the Midland Main Line.
  • Provide a high-quality first class service, to attract LNER first class passengers (and potentially Avanti passengers when the 805s and 807s are introduced) disappointed by their first class offerings.
The service will run from London St Pancras International to Glasgow Central, calling at St Albans City, Leicester, Derby and Sheffield, where the train will reverse. The train will then call at Manchester Piccadilly, Bolton Interchange, Carlisle and Glasgow Central.

I have considered multiple names for the operator, including Silverline or reusing Silverlink, but in the end I was inspired by my old Hornby containers from a Class 92 pack, which were in a lovely dark blue colour scheme with the name Haulmark (an interesting play on Hallmark) with a gold lion insignia. The livery I've chosen to use is inspired by the containers and the Mainline Freight and Highland blue liveries. The livery is vibrant dark blue, with a thin silver stripe and doors, with a yellow front and black roof. On locomotives, there is no stripe, but in the centre there is a medium-sized lion insignia.

The trains will use passenger coaches in a push-pull format. The coaches will be CAF Mark 5s, with a number of modifications. Additional damping would be provided to improve the ride quality, and the DTF cab car would be slightly redesigned to look better - this would include making the buffers pop out less and replacing the headlights with a less extravagant design. The DTS car would also have a diesel engine underneath (replaceable with a battery pack) to provide hotel power should no loco be attached or the locomotive being powered. The train would be formed of 8 coaches:

A: Cab car with first class seating. One half is made of 6-seat compartments.
B: First class coach, with a quarter of it in a 1+1 configuration. An accessible toilet is provided in this coach.
C: Restaurant coach with a kitchen.
D: Restaurant coach seating at one end with standard at the other. A regular toilet is provided.
E: Standard class.
F: Standard class seating. Half is in a 3+1 configuration. An accessible toilet is provided.
G: Standard class seating.
H: Standard class seating. One half is made of 6-seat compartments. A regular toilet is provided.

The trains would be initially pulled by Class 67s, but once full electrification is available, these would be replaced by suitable electric locomotives. The only 125mph locomotives that are suitable are the Class 91s, but as these are quickly being scrapped, I'll probably have to settle for Class 90s or perhaps buy new-build locomotives.

Standard class would have Grammer E3000 seats, mostly in a 2+2 configuration. They would have dark blue moquette with a white fake leather headrest, with the lion insignia pressed in. The tables would be covered in fake wood; the carpet would be black with white dots in the gangway. The vestibules would have dark blue lino flooring, with silver 'crystals'. The handrails would be blue. First class would have a more comfortable design, aiming to be as nice as those in the Stansted Express Class 317s, mostly in a 2+1 configuration. The seats would be in purple moquette (like Southeastern's lovely first class colour scheme) with a cream fake leather headrest, again with the lion pressed in. The tables would also be fake wood, but the carpet would be midnight purple with white dots in the gangway. The vestibules and handrails would remain unchanged. Mood lighting would be present in first class, giving the area a blue glow. Both standard and first would aim to have a 50/50 distribution of airline and table seats. Restaurant seating is inspired by Amtrak's café cars, and is laid out in a 2+2 configuration entirely at tables. The seats would be low-backed and be dark blue fake leather. The tables would again be covered in fake wood and the floor would be lino made to look like dark varnished wood, like you'd find in a quaint old pub.

As well as a buffet service open the entire journey, a trolley would also be provided between St Albans and Leicester, between Sheffield and Manchester and between Bolton and Carlisle. Hot meals are also available to all passengers, but are complimentary in first class. The menu is meant to be the sort of food you'd get in a pub-restaurant, being 'posh food' mixed with more common favourites, like burgers and chips. These can be ordered from the buffet, and can only be eaten in restaurant cars (coaches C and D). Normal snacks would also be available to purchase. Family-orientated areas, like the 3+1 section in coach 6, and the compartment sections in both first and standard class, are available to hopefully encourage families with children to travel long distances on the train instead of in cars. They can also be used as meeting rooms, and can be reserved for use for this reason.

One train would run in each direction six times per day, starting at roughly the following times (obviously, the real times would be different):

Northbound (St Pancras departure):
  • 07:45
  • 09:30
  • 11:30
  • 2:00
  • 4:30
  • 6:30
Southbound (Glasgow departure):
  • 08:30
  • 10:30
  • 12:45
  • 3:00
  • 5:30
  • 7:30
 
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Paul Jones 88

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Refurbish some 321s into modern standards with 2+2 seating, WIFI and business hub area to provide a premium fast Liverpool Street to Southend Airport service.
 

D365

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I recently came up with a new idea for an open-access operator, but couldn't post it in the original thread since the admins here seem to want to lock every old thread, forcing us to make new ones.
Threads get locked automatically after six months of non-activity.
 

JonathanH

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The service will run from London St Pancras International to Glasgow Central, calling at St Albans City, Leicester, Derby and Sheffield, where the train will reverse. The train will then call at Manchester Piccadilly, Bolton Interchange, Carlisle and Glasgow Central.
How long is that going to take?

My new idea is for an ECT-style budget operator that serves three purposes:
  • Provide a budget operator on the London-Glasgow route, as a direct competitor to East Coast Trains.
  • Provide long-distance express services to Bolton and other places, particularly those on the Midland Main Line.
  • Provide a high-quality first class service, to attract LNER first class passengers (and potentially Avanti passengers when the 805s and 807s are introduced) disappointed by their first class offerings.
How would the service automatically be a 'budget' operation? You seem to have described some quite expensive operational details. The route looks slow relative to the existing routes which increases the cost of operation.

Would the first class offering be enough to offset the slow speed on the train? Bolton to London via Sheffield isn't going to be anything like as desirable for most passengers as getting a connection at Piccadilly into the Avanti service and the train doesn't really offer anything unique north of Manchester relative to the TPE offering. A train formed of a 67 and coaches is going to need to go in a loop at least once on the northern WCML.

The whole point of the ECT service is to try and maximise the number of services provided with the least amount of rolling stock and to have one class of operation without the additional costs of first class. I'm not sure that your later services are going to arrive at their destination at a sensible time, particularly the last departure from Glasgow.

fake leather
What is with fake leather? Is that really a selling point?

The service will run from London St Pancras International
There are so many issues with running open access out of St Pancras - eg lack of platform space, lack of paths, lack of a convenient depot location near the station - that it isn't a natural location for open access.

I appreciate that this is fantasy and an idea for something novel but there would appear good reasons that nothing like this has happened to date. What would this service mean to you if it actually existed?
 
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zwk500

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So, in short, you want to reinstate the Thames-Clyde express, all day?

Provide a budget operator on the London-Glasgow route, as a direct competitor to East Coast Trains.
How does London-Glasgow compete directly with London-Edinburgh?
Provide long-distance express services to Bolton and other places, particularly those on the Midland Main Line.
Do people in Bolton want to travel to Derby and Leicester?
Provide a high-quality first class service, to attract LNER first class passengers (and potentially Avanti passengers when the 805s and 807s are introduced) disappointed by their first class offerings.
How does this route help LNER passengers heading anywhere other than Edinburgh? A bad 1st class offering will be much less of a factor in train choice than a faster journey time and less changes.
The service will run from London St Pancras International to Glasgow Central, calling at St Albans City, Leicester, Derby and Sheffield, where the train will reverse. The train will then call at Manchester Piccadilly, Bolton Interchange, Carlisle and Glasgow Central.
St P to Sheffield is basically 3 hours, Sheffield to Piccadilly about 1h5, Piccadilly to Glasgow via Bolton is looking at another 3 hours. So being kind, 7hrs minimum Journey time. Your 18.30 departure will therefore be arriving at 03.30 the next morning.
The train would be formed of 8 coaches:
THere's a reason compartments have dissappeared, especially in standard. And a coach and a half or restaurant car will severely restrict your ability to make money.
The trains would be initially pulled by Class 67s, but once full electrification is available, these would be replaced by suitable electric locomotives. The only 125mph locomotives that are suitable are the Class 91s, but as these are quickly being scrapped, I'll probably have to settle for Class 90s or perhaps buy new-build locomotives.
Is the Midland 125mph for locos now? I thought it was only HSTs and 222s permitted above 110? Either way, surely a bi-mode would be the choice from the start, given that London-Kettering and Manchester-Glasgow are fully wired today? Add to that the loco hauled is rubbish for acceleration and hills, which are concerns for pretty much all of your route.
As well as a buffet service open the entire journey, a trolley would also be provided between St Albans and Leicester, between Sheffield and Manchester and between Bolton and Carlisle.
6 Catering depots, in addition to facilities at Glasgow and London! How much are you charging for the first class seats?
One train would run in each direction six times per day, starting at roughly the following times (obviously, the real times would be different):
If you take my fag-packet 7 hours, the first return journey the 0700 down train can form is the 15.00 ex-Glasgow. It would have a turnround of 15 minutes. The first return journey your 08.30 Up train can form is the 16.30 ex-London. It would have a turnround of 1 hour. You would therefore need 7 train sets for 12 services per day, not including ECS moves.

I personally think the market for OAO will be very limited except for linking large towns/Small cities that are awkward to serve conventionally to London. Grand Central are a good example of this.
 

class26

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St P to Sheffield is basically 3 hours, Sheffield to Piccadilly about 1h5, Piccadilly to Glasgow via Bolton is looking at another 3 hours. So being kind, 7hrs minimum Journey time. Your 18.30 departure will therefore be arriving at 03.30 the next morning. St Pancras t Sheffield is nothing like 3 hours, more like a fraction over 2 hours.
 

JonathanH

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St Pancras t Sheffield is nothing like 3 hours, more like a fraction over 2 hours.
Just over two hours from St Pancras to Sheffield with a Meridian but this isn't a Meridian, it is a 67 and coaches - by the time it has gone on the slow lines or in loops for a stretch to get out of the way of faster traction, it could be getting on for three hours.
 

zwk500

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St Pancras t Sheffield is nothing like 3 hours, more like a fraction over 2 hours.
Fair point, I will admit to having rather hastily checked approximate journey times. However reducing the total journey time to 6 hours (or even 5h30 if you knock some time of Manchester-Glasgow) doesn't change things like the number of trains required, or drivers needing breaks.
 

Mcr Warrior

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St P to Sheffield is basically 3 hours, Sheffield to Piccadilly about 1h5, Piccadilly to Glasgow via Bolton is looking at another 3 hours. So being kind, 7hrs minimum Journey time. Your 18.30 departure will therefore be arriving at 03.30 the next morning.
7 hours from 18.30 is more like 1.30 a.m., but even if these end-to-end timings can be sharpened up, it's still going to mean arrival in Glasgow at or after midnight.
 

zwk500

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7 hours from 18.30 is more like 1.30 a.m., but even if these end-to-end timings can be sharpened up, it's still going to mean arrival in Glasgow at or after midnight.
Blimey I really wasn't paying attention when I ran those numbers was I? :D
 

class26

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Fair point, I will admit to having rather hastily checked approximate journey times. However reducing the total journey time to 6 hours (or even 5h30 if you knock some time of Manchester-Glasgow) doesn't change things like the number of trains required, or drivers needing breaks.
Yes, it might have approached 3 hours when a cl 45 hauled mk2`s but these days the 222 `s are more sprightly !
 

Aictos

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The question I have is which TL service will lose it's calls at St Albans City to make room for you to call there and which EMR service will face longer journey times due to congestion in the St Albans City area as a direct result of a open access operator wishing to call there?

I'm sure it's been explained before that even EMR can't call at St Albans and why this is so I fail to see why a OAO should be any different to a operator that is well established and have well used flows.
 

GrimsbyPacer

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I think the Intercity services are usually quite good, if anywhere needs Open Access competition it's commuter lines in big towns with poor services.
So if I can make a fantasy open access operator, it'll be Lancashire Rail.
The services will use any available paths between Manchester, Liverpool, Preston, Burnley and Blackpool calling at all stations.
Possible routes Blackpool South to Ormskirk, and Colne to Derwen and Manchester Victoria etc.
The trains will be painted sky blue with red roses everyhere, the insides will have minimal seating and will be inspired by bus design, possibly using railbuses like 144e Pacers or new Parry People Movers.
Basically a cheap service providing more connections on hourly paths people understand.

No one needs a competitor to National Express buses, but a competitor to First / Stagecoach can be more useful for example.
 

Flying Claret

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The "East Lancs Express" Colne to London calling at Nelson, Burnley, Accy, Blackburn, Bamber Bridge, Wigan & Crewe.
 

Doomotron

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I appreciate that this is fantasy and an idea for something novel but there would appear good reasons that nothing like this has happened to date. What would this service mean to you if it actually existed?
I don't think you are familiar with the old thread. It's not serious, just fantasy. That's why I'm not going to answer any of your or @zwk500's questions - because the real-world aspects of these ideas don't matter, and I don't care about answering them.

I doubt you'd like these three suggestions.
 

172007

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Purely fictional.

Purchase another batch of Mk5's upgrade the Cornish Riviera plus vehicles for new sleeper.

Additional sleeper run on a Y axis., Edinburgh, ECML to Doncater then Sheffield to New St, links up with Glasgow via Manchester after a reversal to go to Lime St to New Street. Bang the 2 sets together then down to Newquay via Bristol. Rather than lounge cars use the space for surf board storage.
 

318266

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Ideally,

The Overtly Uncomfortable But Pleasantly Hellish Loch to Lake Express.

Runs from Balloch Pier using pop-out rubber wheels then roll over the A811 onto the actual train station non-stop at 62mph over down through Glasgow QS Low Level, via Bathgate straight through to the Edinburgh Suburban, Newcraighall and winding through Millerhill up onto the ECML through the Thameslink Core, around towards Clapham junction, down via Haslemere to Portsmouth, go back to driving over to the ship, then drive until Smallbrook Junction, hop over a field or so and go to track and go to Lake.

Ran at 62mph max speed in a double sided Mellor Strata connected together like a Pacer.

1626109195797.png
1626109348319.png
1626109333770.png
 

JonathanH

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I don't think you are familiar with the old thread. It's not serious, just fantasy. That's why I'm not going to answer any of your or @zwk500's questions - because the real-world aspects of these ideas don't matter, and I don't care about answering them.
Who said it was serious? However, I assume by posting the idea on a public forum you either want people to congratulate you on a great idea or critique it as not such a great idea.

A bit like if I comment on this one...
The "East Lancs Express" Colne to London calling at Nelson, Burnley, Accy, Blackburn, Bamber Bridge, Wigan & Crewe.
...saying, don't you think that non stop to Cardiff might be a bit more novel as a destination for this one, rather than London?

My own idea

On another matter, how about Reading to Paddington is given over entirely to an open access operator running high capacity electric units every three minutes with a separate terminus station at the Reading end - trains scheduled for 25 minutes Paddington to Reading. GWR services can all start and finish at Reading from the West with passengers changing there between the stations and be formed of stock that doesn't need to cope with the commuter loads between Reading and Paddington.

If I posted that as a fantasy idea, which it clearly is, I'd want people to point out why it doesn't work.
 
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HST43257

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What about London to Altrincham calling at Crewe, Sandbach, Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham

(half serious, open to any responses)
 

Doomotron

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Ideally,

The Overtly Uncomfortable But Pleasantly Hellish Loch to Lake Express.

Runs from Balloch Pier using pop-out rubber wheels then roll over the A811 onto the actual train station non-stop at 62mph over down through Glasgow QS Low Level, via Bathgate straight through to the Edinburgh Suburban, Newcraighall and winding through Millerhill up onto the ECML through the Thameslink Core, around towards Clapham junction, down via Haslemere to Portsmouth, go back to driving over to the ship, then drive until Smallbrook Junction, hop over a field or so and go to track and go to Lake.

Ran at 62mph max speed in a double sided Mellor Strata connected together like a Pacer.

View attachment 99589
View attachment 99591
View attachment 99590
Now this is more like it.
 

318266

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1626125803403.png
If you were wondering, here is the very professional livery commissioned by the most esteemed person in the land of graphic design
 

Aictos

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My idea of a open access operator would simply be reinstating the South West to Scotland sleeper and bringing it under the same management as the Night Riveria and the Caledonian Sleeper so you had:

Penzance to London Paddington
Plymouth to Glasgow/Edinburgh
London Euston to Fort William/Inverness
London Kings Cross to Edinburgh/Aberdeen

All portions will be formed of either six 23m length carriages or seven 20m length carriages.

The Night Riveria will operate using loco and DVT to avoid need to runaround at London Paddington.

The other services will either use loco and DVT in much the same way that the OBB railjet services as preferred method of operation with loco run round as back up method of operation.

The rolling stock to be formed of Mk5 carriages/DVT with a UK specified version of the Siemens Charger loco so will be able to use either mode of power depending on the requirements meaning no diesel usage where OHL exists eg London Paddington.
 

XAM2175

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The rolling stock to be formed of Mk5 carriages/DVT with a UK specified version of the Siemens Charger loco
Whyyyy stick with CAF? The venture is commercially hopeless anyway so why not dream a little bigger and get new stock from Siemens too? :lol:
 

Aictos

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Whyyyy stick with CAF? The venture is commercially hopeless anyway so why not dream a little bigger and get new stock from Siemens too? :lol:
I'm using Mk5 as the standard design in much the same way that the MK1 to Mk3 designs were standardised so doesn't have to be CAF who manufacturers the rolling stock but it does have to work to the standard design.

I was intending on using OBB/Siemens experience to improve the portion operations of my OAO.
 

Eskimo

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Right.

a oao for the south. Something akin to a Cornwall to Dover express (and that is a vvvvvery tentative use of the word!)

Penzance > Plymouth > Exeter > Yeovil > Weymouth > Bournemouth > Southampton > Portsmouth Harbour > Chichester > Brighton > Eastbourne > Hastings > Ashford > Folkestone > Dover (& return)

probably will include a more extensive stopping pattern so to fit in with whatever gaps are available - but it’s speculative so let’s hope for a clear run!

1tp2h every day May - September then 4tpd rest of the year.

Nothing too fancy, just good seat to window alignment and a buffet service. That being said let’s use some latest regulation spec HST sets. Probably 5/6 car to allow space for the buffet and a single first class saloon

Oh.. and it would have two alternating drivers in each cab, so turn backs in the numerous dead ends aren’t a waste of precious time!

Don’t expect an express! This train will barely beat longshore drift along the coast.

Some alternate routes, stops would likely happen, such as Paignton, Newquay, Bognor and further into Kent.

Some of the major issues at the time of writing are the turnbacks, notably at Brighton where I somehow expect a long-ish train to navigate an approach and departure not currently possible!

Ah well. Maybe we’ll remodel Brighton while we’re at it!
 

zwk500

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Right.

Penzance > Plymouth > Exeter > Yeovil > Weymouth > Bournemouth > Southampton > Portsmouth Harbour > Chichester > Brighton > Eastbourne > Hastings > Ashford > Folkestone > Dover (& return)

Some of the major issues at the time of writing are the turnbacks, notably at Brighton where I somehow expect a long-ish train to navigate an approach and departure not currently possible!

Ah well. Maybe we’ll remodel Brighton while we’re at it!
In order to make Brighton work without remodelling you should just add a 7th reversal: Preston Park. It's not as if it's going to make a measurable impact on journey time.
 

Eskimo

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In order to make Brighton work without remodelling you should just add a 7th reversal: Preston Park. It's not as if it's going to make a measurable impact on journey time.
Nah I reckon we run it up to Gatwick, turn back there and have a South Coast Gatwick Express option
 

cle

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If we had a fully electrified network, I would hope for a secondary network of fast services out of Paddington and Reading to the SW. Salisbury and Bournemouth at least. Might need to be dual mode.

I'm not sure about all the way to Scotland, but I've always advocated for a better alt Manchester and Leeds service out of St Pancras, extending Sheffield services. How can the likes of Grantham to Doncaster be seen as essential flows, but Leicester and Derby to Manchester is derided as non-existent (plus Luton or Bedford in future) - and Leicester to Leeds. Definite potential. Rio was a long time ago. HS2 will of course make these fairly moot, as the current main routes become the cheaper, slower competition.

I think the Stoke-Derby line could be useful more convincingly as a cross-country artery.
 

zwk500

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If we had a fully electrified network, I would hope for a secondary network of fast services out of Paddington and Reading to the SW. Salisbury and Bournemouth at least. Might need to be dual mode.
Do you mean dual voltage or bi-mode?
I'm not sure about all the way to Scotland, but I've always advocated for a better alt Manchester and Leeds service out of St Pancras, extending Sheffield services. How can the likes of Grantham to Doncaster be seen as essential flows, but Leicester and Derby to Manchester is derided as non-existent (plus Luton or Bedford in future) - and Leicester to Leeds. Definite potential. Rio was a long time ago. HS2 will of course make these fairly moot, as the current main routes become the cheaper, slower competition.
Grantham to Doncaster isn't seen as an essential flow, it's just a happy accident that the London line passes through. I think Leicester-Derby-Stoke-Manchester has potential, although where you'd have to start it from to get space at Leicester is another matter.
I think the Stoke-Derby line could be useful more convincingly as a cross-country artery.
It's kind of caught in the awkward middle ground where it's too far south to serve the Manchester traffic and too far out of the way to attract Birmingham traffic off the Tamworth Line.
 

Doomotron

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Right.

a oao for the south. Something akin to a Cornwall to Dover express (and that is a vvvvvery tentative use of the word!)

Penzance > Plymouth > Exeter > Yeovil > Weymouth > Bournemouth > Southampton > Portsmouth Harbour > Chichester > Brighton > Eastbourne > Hastings > Ashford > Folkestone > Dover (& return)

probably will include a more extensive stopping pattern so to fit in with whatever gaps are available - but it’s speculative so let’s hope for a clear run!

1tp2h every day May - September then 4tpd rest of the year.

Nothing too fancy, just good seat to window alignment and a buffet service. That being said let’s use some latest regulation spec HST sets. Probably 5/6 car to allow space for the buffet and a single first class saloon

Oh.. and it would have two alternating drivers in each cab, so turn backs in the numerous dead ends aren’t a waste of precious time!

Don’t expect an express! This train will barely beat longshore drift along the coast.

Some alternate routes, stops would likely happen, such as Paignton, Newquay, Bognor and further into Kent.

Some of the major issues at the time of writing are the turnbacks, notably at Brighton where I somehow expect a long-ish train to navigate an approach and departure not currently possible!

Ah well. Maybe we’ll remodel Brighton while we’re at it!
Although this isn't serious at all (I hope :lol: ) this would actually be incredibly useful for me in the real world...
 
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