Fare Check Rule with a 'Route Via' ticket

[noblergt]

I'll see if I can avoid posting the exact journey without it being too confusing...

I'm trying to do a journey from A to B via X. Going via X is only valid on a mapped route when I use a particular associated routing point for B. I'll call my chosen associated routing point C. So, to see if I can actually use C as the routing point I'll need to do the fare check rule. A is a routing point in itself.

To do the fare check rule I check the whether single tickets from A to B cost the same or more than tickets from A to C. If they do, then the route is valid. Now, my route passes the check when comparing Any Permitted tickets, but I actually want to use a cheaper Via Y ticket. Y is on the route I want to use anyway, however when I compare the Via Y tickets between A and B/C the fare check rule fails.

So, as I understand it, the route via X is valid only if you use a Any Permitted ticket, even though you do end up travelling through Y anyway.

However, NRE shows that I can use the Via Y ticket specifically via X just fine. I can also make thetrainline powered websites book the journey (not on WebTis though). Additionally TCBC's Permitted Route Search thinks it is fine as well.

So I am wondering whether the fact a route via X is valid on a Any Permitted ticket means that I can go via X even if my (otherwise valid) ticket fails the fare check rule, or whether this is just a bug with routing engines that I can exploit (since NRE is definitive).

Thanks!

 

[LexyBoy]

If NRE and booking engines are showing it as valid, I don't see the need to conceal the journey. Does it pass the reasonableness test?

Anyway: AIUI, Permitted Routes are determined by the Routeing Guide and as such "fixed" between any two given stations. Whatever tickets exist between those stations do not affect the Permitted Routes except insofar as the fares check determines*. The RG is silent on the matter of which routeing to use, but it can be assumed that the fares compared should have the same routeing wherever possible. I believe journey planners will use the Any Permitted for this.

So, my interpretation is: if you use the Any Permitted fares to determine Permitted Routes (which seems the most obvious), then you may travel via X. A ticket with a Via Y restriction can be used on any of these Permitted Routes which pass through Y. Alternately, if you use the Via Y fares for the fares check, the set of Permitted Routes resulting is valid only for Via Y tickets (and only if passing through Y of course).

*of course there can in principle be Permitted Routes which can't be used, if the only ticket available has a specific routeing for example. Also if there's a cheaper routeing which is not on a Permitted Route then that would be allowed...

 

[noblergt]

As a journey from A to B it is probably reasonable, as its about 30 miles longer to make a 200 mile journey. Though X is actually further away from A than B.

What is probably unreasonable is if you stop short at X, since the ticket A to B Route Via Y is almost half the price of the cheapest ticket from A to X.

 

[34D]

The places need to be emailed to someone on here for an opinion, I feel.

Happy to do the honours if you'd like.

Reading A and C via X has given me a headache.

 

[bb21]

In theory, this is not well defined. It can be argued that if an associated Routeing Point passes fares check for the Any Permitted fare, then it passes, even if you are using a route restricted ticket.

In reality, from ATOC's training exercises, it is clear that you must compare fares of different routeings, and pass/fail depends on the route restrictions used. So for example, if your origin station has a Route Not Via London fare, which is less than (ie. fails) the equivalent Route Via Clapham Junction fare for the associated Routeing Point, then you can only use any route avoiding London and Clapham Junction. If the same fare fails fares check with the equivalent Route Via Reading fare for the associated Routeing Point, then you may use any route avoiding London and avoiding Reading.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would say you use the Any Permitted fare where possible, though the Routeing Guide is not clear on this.

The Routeing Guide is used to find permitted routes for an Any Permitted ticket. The Routeing Guide itself notes that a ticket with a specific routeing is valid by those permitted routes that go via (or avoid as appropriate) the named place (in some cases the named place is not on any of the permitted routes).

It should, however, be noted that you are only required to use the fare check rule when you are unsure which Routeing Point is appropriate.

 

[RJ]

The places need to be emailed to someone on here for an opinion, I feel.

Happy to do the honours if you'd like.

Reading A and C via X has given me a headache.

I just close the page when people start using letters in this way. Understanding this would require me to draw a map and remember each fare rule, which I'm not prepared to spend time doing. I'd offer an opinion where real stations and fares are used.

 

[Paul Kelly]

if you use the Via Y fares for the fares check, the set of Permitted Routes resulting is valid only for Via Y tickets (and only if passing through Y of course)

I'm not sure about the bit I've highlighted in bold. I suspect it might make it valid for all permitted routes that pass through Y, even if the route on the ticket is different (although that route would need to be respected as well - but not an issue for fares routed Any Permitted). See also my [thread=97899]Burton-on-Trent to London International VIA DERBY[/thread] example, that never got an answer...