Fare Evader stopped dead

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cjp

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Came across this as I was browsing through the web.

Another young, unarmed Black man, Kenneth Harding, has been gunned down in broad daylight.
He was shot numerous times in the back as he fled, his empty hands held in the air.
His crime had been a simple train fare evasion for which San Francisco police executed him in the street.

My bold.
http://sfbayview.com/2011/a-life-worth-less-than-train-fare/

Somewhat emotive writing but I consider this to be a vote in favour of ticket gate lines although I know a number here think they are crude and ineffective as all they do is see if one has a valid ticket to pass the test of the gates.
My view is that they serve a use and are good at eliminating "free travel".
Nothing is quite as effective as on train checking, a someone more labour intensive job, but hey gates are something and certainly better than the USA way.
 
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ainsworth74

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Well the Daily Mail have a slightly different take on the matter which you can see here and the Huffington Post (from a few days later) has this to say on the matter. Just going on the emotive language used by the site you've linked to I'd be suspicious that it's writing with a very strong bias.
 

moonrakerz

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If he was unarmed I honestly have no idea how those coppers can sleep at night!
Two of the three reports seem to say fairly conclusively that he WAS armed and used the weapon.

The first report seems to have a large pile of axes to grind !!
 

Wath Yard

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Somewhat emotive writing but I consider this to be a vote in favour of ticket gate lines although I know a number here think they are crude and ineffective as all they do is see if one has a valid ticket to pass the test of the gates.
My view is that they serve a use and are good at eliminating "free travel".
Nothing is quite as effective as on train checking, a someone more labour intensive job, but hey gates are something and certainly better than the USA way.
It is quite difficult to argue with that point. Preventing ticketless travel is indeed a better solution than shooting someone dead.
 

cjp

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Two of the three reports seem to say fairly conclusively that he WAS armed and used the weapon.

The first report seems to have a large pile of axes to grind !!
My post was in about being in favour of gateline barrier.
]Having read both the other links I would say one report said he fired first and the police shot him in response
the other that he was not shot with a police calibre bullet at all!
It seems which ever report is correct there are untruths and half truths being propagated as truth.


Getting back to gatelines as a first line of defence against ticketless travel I think that they are good - if annoying at times in the way that they are operated.

More an infrastructure question than ticketing but can anyone tell me if they put in place by Network Rail or by individual train companies and if the latter I wondered how they are costed at stations that serve several companies and what happens to them at the end of a franchise?
 

bignosemac

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If you wished a debate on gatelines in the UK then it would maybe have been better served without a tenuous reference to a shooting in the USA.
 

cjp

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If you wished a debate on gatelines in the UK then it would maybe have been better served without a tenuous reference to a shooting in the USA.
I would not describe the link as tenuous nor even the content to which it directed people as tenuous. It was a citation for the words I had posted which were not my own.
The report I cited might be correct or it might be wrong I have no way of knowing as I was not a witness but on the basis it happened and the circumstance were as reported (and it seems there are three different version) I felt justified in quoting the words in support of gatelines .
One may disagree as is one's right.
One could one say the words were inappropriate which is a belief and I respect beliefs.
But saying it was tenuous?
 
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Wath Yard

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Tenuous doesn't do it justice. I haven't used that system in San Francisco but my guess is that execution is not the official policy for dealing with fare evaders.
 

ANorthernGuard

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Tenuous doesn't do it justice. I haven't used that system in San Francisco but my guess is that execution is not the official policy for dealing with fare evaders.
On some of my trips a pistol with ammo would certainly lower fare evasion. However I would be doing life by now if we were given such items lol

 

LE Greys

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On some of my trips a pistol with ammo would certainly lower fare evasion. However I would be doing life by now if we were given such items lol
Now that's the problem, guns tend to get used. Mind you, shots were apparently "exchanged", so it's quite possible that the story over here might have had a very different ending.
 

SS4

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Barriers didn't stop Jean Charles de Menezes getting shot. This site has made up it's mind that it's a racist attack by law enforcement of the kind found in the lyrics to Killing in the Name.

Gatelines certainly have their place but they've been done to death (no pun intended) and wouldn't a debate be better served in NR General Discussion?
 

NY Yankee

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MikeWh

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Barriers didn't stop Jean Charles de Menezes getting shot. This site has made up it's mind that it's a racist attack by law enforcement of the kind found in the lyrics to Killing in the Name.
Was he shot for evading a fare?
 

150222

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I think the first article is more about the police being corrupt and racist than ticket barriers. IMO.
 

jon0844

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And folks living in the UK, this is how they treat blacks in America. Fortunately, in the UK, everyone is treated equally.
I won't pretend that we don't have our own problems with racism here, but I sincerely hope that it isn't the case that that's how they treat all blacks in America (or should I say, how all people treat blacks in America).

America is of course a big place and although I've visited many times, and been to quite a few states, in the grand scheme of things I've covered only a tiny percentage of the country and population. I've also been to mostly tourist areas, or business districts. I would say that on my last trip to NY, it seemed like there were plenty of similarities (such as tolerance of other people, based on race, faith, sexuality etc) with most European cities. Again, maybe I didn't go to the right areas!
 

ChristopherJ

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When I read the thread title I thought this was probably the latest deterrent by First Capital Connect, I imagined they'd modified their fare evading policy from prosecutions to executions. ;) :lol:

According to the Daily Mail, this chap was the first to exchange fire, was in breach of his jail parole and the firearm has apparently been linked to the murder of a pregnant women.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arding-Jr-shot-dead-police-San-Francisco.html

If these are the facts then I have no sympathy. If a person is in possession of an unlicensed firearm with intent to harm then naturally you should expect to be shot back at regardless if it's from authority or another establishment. I believe the correct term for this retaliation is called defence. I have the same opinion for Mark Duggan in the Tottenham incident. Another one bites the dust as far as I'm concerned. Where have their actions got them? Six feet underground, that's where.

Judging by the previous posts to this thread, I assume a majority of replies are from people who haven't got their facts correct. It's no wonder why we have a society where criminals are hailed as heroes, and you only have yourselves to blame.

/Virtual spit.
 
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ainsworth74

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If these are the facts then I have no sympathy.
Well it seems they aren't the facts as a follow up piece from a different news source (that I linked to in my first reply to this thread) has a different picture of the situation.

I think it's clear at this point that the true situation is unclear and leaping one way or the other (he was unarmed and police fired in cold blood or he fired first and the police defended themselves) is unwise unless anyone can locate other sources of information beyond the three presented here so far.
 
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NY Yankee

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I won't pretend that we don't have our own problems with racism here, but I sincerely hope that it isn't the case that that's how they treat all blacks in America (or should I say, how all people treat blacks in America).

America is of course a big place and although I've visited many times, and been to quite a few states, in the grand scheme of things I've covered only a tiny percentage of the country and population. I've also been to mostly tourist areas, or business districts. I would say that on my last trip to NY, it seemed like there were plenty of similarities (such as tolerance of other people, based on race, faith, sexuality etc) with most European cities. Again, maybe I didn't go to the right areas!
Google "Trayvon Martin"

Sure about that?
I'm sure there are pockets of xenophobia and racism in the UK, but based on the Tube videos I've watched, it seems like overall, the UK is more tolerant than my home country. I saw blacks in high profile positions within the Tube (not just station cleaners), including several who worked at the headquarters.
 

Wath Yard

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I'm sure there are pockets of xenophobia and racism in the UK, but based on the Tube videos I've watched, it seems like overall, the UK is more tolerant than my home country. I saw blacks in high profile positions within the Tube (not just station cleaners), including several who worked at the headquarters.
Blacks in high positions within the Tube eh? Much higher positions than President of the country then?
 

150222

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Just because they have a job doesn't mean they aren't subjected to racism! You also can't base all the racism in the UK on a programe about the tube. There aren't many black people around where I live and the few there are probably have been subjected to racism. They also wouldn't show racism on 'The Tube' as it isn't about that.
 

jon0844

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Google "Trayvon Martin"
No need to Google. It's been covered quite a bit in the UK media.

From how it's been reported, it's quite amazing (not in a good way). The law itself seems like it was open to abuse, and the circumstances (if true) suggest a racist thinking he could hide behind that new law to commit murder. Will the law be repealed?

Nevertheless, someone possibly linked to a murder and firing at the police (assuming they were after him for more than fare evasion) is likely to find things only end one way - and if you look up Mark Duggan, killed by the police after a planned stop (which was a major trigger for the August riots last year) you'll see that this was a person allegedly on his way to shoot someone for the death of his brother or cousin (I forget which) and certainly wasn't a sweet and loving person that the family made out. In fact, I believe he was a known drug dealer in the local community.

Sadly, the police (or the independent investigators that look at any shooting by the police) made a mess of the investigation and angered the local community that immediately assumed it was some sort of assassination of a black man.

The colour of everyone but Trayvon Martin should be irrelevant, as they were criminals. Mr Martin seems like nothing more than an innocent victim, killed because of his colour.

More recently we had another black male that was arrested during (or after) the riots, who recorded the conversation as he was in the police car/van. The racist language has since led to their suspension and brought into question racism within the London Metropolitan police service.

We do have our problems, but I suppose it's how we ultimately solve those problems that defines us a nation.
 

150222

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That's conclusive then. We must be racist.
I didn't say that. What I mean is due to the low number of black people in my area the chavs are less used to seeing them. So they make racist remarks and I know several 'black' (I prefer to think of them as people) people and they've said so. (NOTE: there are lots of asians however they don't get discriminated as much). Obviously with many more black people in London people are used to them. Thankfully most don't give a t.o.s.s about skin colour and the people that are racist are only doing it as they want a fight/argument. There is still racism in Britain, thankfully not much. IMO anyone caught making racist remarks (including against white people) should serve time in the slammer.
 

jon0844

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There are certainly some scarily racist people in parts of London - especially towards places like Barking and Dagenham. I guess their racism extends to blacks, Asians and, more recently, eastern Europeans. Well, anyone that dares to do a hard days work instead of signing on and watching (or featuring on) Jeremy Kyle while smoking weed.

I realise that this is in itself a generalisation, or at least I thought so until I had the (dis)pleasure of visiting these places!

I don't think we always have black people in jobs that suffer blatant racism day to day (not that I know, but it's a presumption). I think the problems stem from hidden racism, such as not being promoted over someone else. I am no fan of positive discrimination either, as that just creates resentment and also means those who do work their way up the ladder legitimately get associated with the comments like 'well, you only got the job because you're black'. No better than not getting the job because you're black.

What we need is the right person getting the job. I do hope that this happens most of the time, and did happen within London Underground, because I have to have some faith in humanity. But, I also live in the real world and accept it must go on.
 

150222

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I'm not saying they nessasarily get racism at work, but what about near/at their home or on their commute?
 

jon0844

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That gives the impression that every black person is subjected to abuse whenever they're out or travelling, which I don't believe is true for one second.

We've seen the 'Racist tram woman' video, and look at the outrage. I can't believe that's anywhere near normal (for a start, we'd see more videos being made and uploaded) or likely, and such incidents stand out as a result.
 

Wath Yard

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I didn't say that. What I mean is due to the low number of black people in my area the chavs are less used to seeing them. So they make racist remarks and I know several 'black' (I prefer to think of them as people) people and they've said so. (NOTE: there are lots of asians however they don't get discriminated as much). Obviously with many more black people in London people are used to them. Thankfully most don't give a t.o.s.s about skin colour and the people that are racist are only doing it as they want a fight/argument. There is still racism in Britain, thankfully not much. IMO anyone caught making racist remarks (including against white people) should serve time in the slammer.
Oh, its the old 'selective' racism argument, where we are a racist nation, but it only when it proves a point. Just like black and Pakistani children, as a group, do worse than white children at school and that is due to racism, but Indian and Far Eastern children do better than whites.
 

ralphchadkirk

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We've seen the 'Racist tram woman' video, and look at the outrage. I can't believe that's anywhere near normal (for a start, we'd see more videos being made and uploaded) or likely, and such incidents stand out as a result.
And we did once that original video came out. Loads were then uploaded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, its the old 'selective' racism argument, where we are a racist nation, but it only when it proves a point. Just like black and Pakistani children, as a group, do worse than white children at school and that is due to racism, but Indian and Far Eastern children do better than whites.
That's a fallacy. Just because someone is not racist towards one group does not mean that they are not racist.
 
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