Fares on replacement buses should be cheaper?

[Howardh]

Crossing the Pennines this month is going to be one heck of a journey as Piccadilly > Eastbound is via RRB as Stalybridge is closed. Yet the prices are the same. From a train with a decent seat, toilet and occasionally a trolley service, you are crammed into smaller seats, often no toilet or out of service, no chance of refreshments and the journey takes a lot, lot longer. fares on National Express would, I imagine be a lot cheaper especially in advance.

So, could a formula be worked out where if a significant part of your journey is by replacement bus, your fare is a lot cheaper?

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Given the complexity of railway fares it is probably far too difficult to work out an appropriate rebate. Moreover, the railway won’t want to lose the revenue by doing this. There is, of course, nothing to stop the consumer shopping around to see if the competitors (e.g, National Express) can offer a better deal. Did this myself last year on a trip from London to Bournemouth when there was rail replacement from Eastleigh. Found National Express offered a better journey time, coach was very comfortable and fare was comparable to rail with the added advantage that I could pay via Tesco Clubcard Deal vouchers which made it effectively free.

 

[zwk500]

It's theoretically possible, but the lack of link to mileage makes it fiendishly complex. You'd also then have issues of split ticketing and variable advance fares, etc. Setting the appropriate would be a minefield and then what do you do if you need to put RRBs on for an emergency on the day?

If National Express is cheaper, people are welcome to book that and then the railway will need to decide if and how to respond.

 

[Howardh]

Given the complexity of railway fares it is probably far too difficult to work out an appropriate rebate. Moreover, the railway won’t want to lose the revenue by doing this. There is, of course, nothing to stop the consumer shopping around to see if the competitors (e.g, National Express) can offer a better deal. Did this myself last year on a trip from London to Bournemouth when there was rail replacement from Eastleigh. Found National Express offered a better journey time, coach was very comfortable and fare was comparable to rail with the added advantage that I could pay via Tesco Clubcard Deal vouchers which made it effectively free.

Don't National Express both have working toilet facilities and a chance to by on-board drinks and snacks? Which is better than any RRB that I've been on. Never been on one with a working toilet, example when coaches have replaced rail Manchester/Bolton/Preston/Blackpool.

It's theoretically possible, but the lack of link to mileage makes it fiendishly complex. You'd also then have issues of split ticketing and variable advance fares, etc. Setting the appropriate would be a minefield and then what do you do if you need to put RRBs on for an emergency on the day?

If National Express is cheaper, people are welcome to book that and then the railway will need to decide if and how to respond.

There are times when the rail's blocked in an emergency and anything will do, But r/e these works @ Stalybridge, it's been known about for some time and plenty of time at adjust fares accordingly.

 

[zwk500]

Don't National Express both have working toilet facilities and a chance to by on-board drinks and snacks? Which is better than any RRB that I've been on. Never been on one with a working toilet, example when coaches have replaced rail Manchester/Bolton/Preston/Blackpool.

Then go with NEx

There are times when the rail's blocked in an emergency and anything will do, But r/e these works @ Stalybridge, it's been known about for some time and plenty of time at adjust fares accordingly.

By the same rationale, the times were known when passengers booked tickets and therefore they had plenty of opportunity to choose alternative methods. The cost of setting this up is that you can't just do it in one place and not others, and you can't do it for one set of works but not others, so you'd need a system capable of handing every combination of bus/rail routes and applying the discounts as and when each line gets shut. The net result of offeing a discount for buses is likely to be an overall increase in fares, or net loss of money for the system.

 

[Howardh]

Then go with NEx

By the same rationale, the times were known when passengers booked tickets and therefore they had plenty of opportunity to choose alternative methods. The cost of setting this up is that you can't just do it in one place and not others, and you can't do it for one set of works but not others, so you'd need a system capable of handing every combination of bus/rail routes and applying the discounts as and when each line gets shut. The net result of offeing a discount for buses is likely to be an overall increase in fares, or net loss of money for the system.

If I booked Manchester -Blackpool weeks in advance using a train, but was subsequently replaced by a bus so my arrival time was an hour later than expected, would I be entitled to delay repay as my original ticket stated "train" and "arrival time"? Or could I get a full refund on an advance if the mode of transport and timing is changed? If so that negates a little my asking for reduced fares for RRB's.

 

[JonathanH]

Don't National Express both have working toilet facilities and a chance to by on-board drinks and snacks?

Toilets yes, but not onboard refreshments. That will have gone years ago.

The railway tends not to pay for toilets to be operational on replacement coaches (and not all have them).

 

[Howardh]

Toilets yes, but not onboard refreshments. That will have gone years ago.

The railway tends not to pay for toilets to be operational on replacement coaches (and not all have them).

As someone with a slight disability in that area, that gobsmacks me. I use trains that I know will have those facilities, and I'm also disappointed the Elizabeth Line doesn't have toilets on board, although I suppose one could "hop off" and use station facilities if known. As for coaches, I hadn't even realised a TOC could do that. Also there is the question of whether RRB's can cope with wheelchair passengers.

Basically if they are charging us full rate for the RRB then we should have a minimum of facilities on board. I'm appalled that they can order the toilets to be locked.

 

[zwk500]

If I booked Manchester -Blackpool weeks in advance using a train, but was subsequently replaced by a bus so my arrival time was an hour later than expected, would I be entitled to delay repay as my original ticket stated "train" and "arrival time"? Or could I get a full refund on an advance if the mode of transport and timing is changed? If so that negates a little my asking for reduced fares for RRB's.

I believe you would be entitled to have a refund on the ticket and not travel, although the conditions on which a TOC are allowed to change a timetabled arrival and avoid delay repay are somewhat outrageous. However it is for this reason many TOCs will not release tickets for travel during major engineering works until they have confirmed train times with Network Rail.

As someone with a slight disability in that area, that gobsmacks me. I use trains that I know will have those facilities, and I'm also disappointed the Elizabeth Line doesn't have toilets on board, although I suppose one could "hop off" and use station facilities if known. As for coaches, I hadn't even realised a TOC could do that. Also there is the question of whether RRB's can cope with wheelchair passengers.

Basically if they are charging us full rate for the RRB then we should have a minimum of facilities on board. I'm appalled that they can order the toilets to be locked.

AIUI the law requires all passengers have equal considerations, so the TOCs are complying with their legal duty to not discriminate by providing no toilets at all. Providing a non-accessible toilet but not an accessible one would potentially be a breach.

 

[Sonic1234]

Given the high fares on buses (before the £2 fare cap), it's lucky you aren't charged a supplement on top of the train ticket.

 

[Howardh]

I believe you would be entitled to have a refund on the ticket and not travel, although the conditions on which a TOC are allowed to change a timetabled arrival and avoid delay repay are somewhat outrageous. However it is for this reason many TOCs will not release tickets for travel during major engineering works until they have confirmed train times with Network Rail.

AIUI the law requires all passengers have equal considerations, so the TOCs are complying with their legal duty to not discriminate by providing no toilets at all. Providing a non-accessible toilet but not an accessible one would potentially be a breach.

Understood - So how does a coach company get away with having working toilets that a disabled customer simply can't access? *Yes, I know they can stop at service areas etc which have toilets for disabled use but those stops can often be infrequent and between long intervals when abled pax have access to on-board faacilities?

 

[David Goddard]

We have regular replacements between Reading and Bracknell and on those occasions I would always use the parallel Reading Buses Lion 4/X4 service (even before the £2 offer) as its cheaper and more frequent.

 

[Howardh]

We have regular replacements between Reading and Bracknell and on those occasions I would always use the parallel Reading Buses Lion 4/X4 service (even before the £2 offer) as its cheaper and more frequent.

I recall something like the trams to Bury being closed and tram replacement buses used, at the same fare as the tram, and Andy Burnham ( Manchester Mayor) looked into the situation of tram replacements being a greater charge than the equivalent bus fare

Andy Burnham to check replacement bus prices amid Bury tram disruption

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham has promised to look into the price of rail replacement bus services in Bury on his weekly slot on BBC Radio…

www.burytimes.co.uk

I've no idea whether he got anywhere with this though! Anyone??

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham has promised to look into the price of rail replacement bus services in Bury.

He made the comments on his weekly Radio Manchester "hot seat" phone-in hosted by presenter Mike Sweeney after a listener complained about the cost of replacement buses used during "regular" issues with the Bury Metrolink line.
In his question, read by Sweeney, the listener, Mike, asked why “TfGM (Transport for Greater Manchester) are allowed to overcharge when there are replacement bus services in place".

He continued to say that while the Bury tramline was closed recently, a single ticket from Besses o’ th' Barn to Manchester cost him £3.80, when a normal bus costs just £2.

 

[zwk500]

Understood - So how does a coach company get away with having working toilets that a disabled customer simply can't access? *Yes, I know they can stop at service areas etc which have toilets for disabled use but those stops can often be infrequent and between long intervals when abled pax have access to on-board faacilities?

I don't know the answer to that one, I'm afraid.

 

[JonathanH]

We have regular replacements between Reading and Bracknell and on those occasions I would always use the parallel Reading Buses Lion 4/X4 service (even before the £2 offer) as its cheaper and more frequent.

Likewise, I used the 405 between Redhill and Purley this morning rather than the replacement bus, so as to avoid having to buy an outboundary travelcard.

(While I could have just waived a contactless card, and not paid for the replacement bus, the fact that I was travelling in London on a paper travelcard would make it somewhat difficult to argue against the view that that would represent intent not to pay my fare, although the net effect is the same.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know the answer to that one, I'm afraid.

Probably because one is required to make reasonable adjustments, not any and all adjustments, and in a 12m coach fitting an accessible toilet and route to get to it would result in it only having about ten seats, thus it isn't reasonable. Plus moving a wheelchair around a moving coach would not be safe anyway, and if it's stopped it can stop at the services where a proper facility can be used.

 

[zwk500]

Probably because one is required to make reasonable adjustments, not any and all adjustments, and in a 12m coach fitting an accessible toilet and route to get to it would result in it only having about ten seats, thus it isn't reasonable. Plus moving a wheelchair around a moving coach would not be safe anyway, and if it's stopped it can stop at the services where a proper facility can be used.

So why do rail companies keep the toilet closed then? Is it purely avoiding the charge from the coach company?

 

[The Planner]

All it would do is make the compensation paid by NR even greater as why would the TOC accept the loss as NR are causing the disruption? That then starts to make certain things unaffordable depending on the impact.

 

[miklcct]

It's theoretically possible, but the lack of link to mileage makes it fiendishly complex. You'd also then have issues of split ticketing and variable advance fares, etc. Setting the appropriate would be a minefield and then what do you do if you need to put RRBs on for an emergency on the day?

If National Express is cheaper, people are welcome to book that and then the railway will need to decide if and how to respond.

I would say that replacement buses should be free-for-all, which is the official practice in Hong Kong and the unofficial practice in London.

The reason is that, failing to run a train is considered a failure of the rail company so a train fare shouldn't be charged.

For pre-planned engineering works, the ticket should only be sold for the rail segments. If it is an emergency, the rail ticket should be able to be refunded as a whole if there isn't a reasonable alternative by train.

 

[zwk500]

The reason is that, failing to run a train is considered a failure of the rail company so a train fare shouldn't be charged.

Failing to run a train is different to planning for trains not to be running.

For pre-planned engineering works, the ticket should only be sold for the rail segments. If it is an emergency, the rail ticket should be able to be refunded as a whole if there isn't a reasonable alternative by train.

And how do you work out the value of the non-rail segments, when fares are not based on mileage?

 

[Bevan Price]

I recall something like the trams to Bury being closed and tram replacement buses used, at the same fare as the tram, and Andy Burnham ( Manchester Mayor) looked into the situation of tram replacements being a greater charge than the equivalent bus fare

Andy Burnham to check replacement bus prices amid Bury tram disruption

Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham has promised to look into the price of rail replacement bus services in Bury on his weekly slot on BBC Radio…

www.burytimes.co.uk

I've no idea whether he got anywhere with this though! Anyone??

Tram replacement buses between Manchester and Bury are usually slower than the regular 135 service bus between those places. Unless they decide to provide some limited stop buses calling only at the most important stops, tram replacement buses follow some very convoluted routes to serve every tram station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The last rail replacement bus I caught (during last month's Batley blockade) had stupidly narrow 3+2 seating which was horribly uncomfortable. If vehicles like that are going to be the norm during the longer blockades to do with Trans-Pennine upgrades, I'll get a car!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last rail replacement bus I caught (during last month's Batley blockade) had stupidly narrow 3+2 seating which was horribly uncomfortable. If vehicles like that are going to be the norm during the longer blockades to do with Trans-Pennine upgrades, I'll get a car!

Several TOCs have a ban on those vehicles and will send them away if they show up even if it means a cancellation. This makes sense - personally I think they are dangerous because a normal sized adult cannot properly fit in one seat and thus cannot safely use the seat belt. They are fine for schoolkids up to say age 13 or so, but should have a couple of rows of 2+2 at the front for the teachers and use for age 14+ be illegal.

As for the original question, more annoying is that RRBs often cost MORE because Advances tend not to be offered.

 

[Gloster]

A simple method for the railway would be to hand out a voucher when a journey is significantly longer due to a RRB: ideally there would be some relationship between the value and the length of the delay. I realise that there might be some practical difficulties with this.

 

[LittleAH]

Realistically, only season ticket holders would ever get some form of compensation. Not many of them these days

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Several TOCs have a ban on those vehicles and will send them away if they show up even if it means a cancellation. This makes sense - personally I think they are dangerous because a normal sized adult cannot properly fit in one seat and thus cannot safely use the seat belt. They are fine for schoolkids up to say age 13 or so, but should have a couple of rows of 2+2 at the front for the teachers and use for age 14+ be illegal.

As for the original question, more annoying is that RRBs often cost MORE because Advances tend not to be offered.

One bus had already failed to show up, so I wasn't going to miss another. Even if it had wider seats at the front (I assume it did, but can't recall) those seats would have already been taken as my station is the fifth calling point of seven on the route.

 

[greatkingrat]

I would say that replacement buses should be free-for-all, which is the official practice in Hong Kong and the unofficial practice in London.

The reason is that, failing to run a train is considered a failure of the rail company so a train fare shouldn't be charged.

For pre-planned engineering works, the ticket should only be sold for the rail segments. If it is an emergency, the rail ticket should be able to be refunded as a whole if there isn't a reasonable alternative by train.

Often tickets from A-B and C-D would be more expensive than the through ticket A-D anyway.

 

[miklcct]

Often tickets from A-B and C-D would be more expensive than the through ticket A-D anyway.

In this case, barring special cases where an easement is given (such as using a replacement bus to connect to another route), a through ticket is valid for omitting a middle part.

 

[nr758123]

If it's a significantly lower standard of service then the fare charged for it should be lower. So, for example, a rail replacement bus from Slaithwaite to Manchester with the scheduled journey time doubled (and unable to keep to those timings) cannot reasonably command the same fare as a direct train taking 35 minutes. I appreciate I'm looking at this from a passenger point of view.
The other question is how practicable it is to reduce fares for the duration of a bus replacement service, but as a passenger I don't think it's unreasonable for the collective wisdom of the railway industry to be able to find a way of doing this. It's not as if TPE haven't had months to prepare for the Stalybridge blockade, and to have understood the inevitable impact on their passengers.