Fares to Oxford & Oxford Parkway

[Chelmo13]

Thanks for posting your journey Nicholas43. I plan to do the journey in reverse and hope that there are no issues. I would not be disappointed if it worked fine I would normally go to Didcot, due to the busy Christmas engineering schedules, but the Thames Valley is closed until 29th! Oxford Parkway seems the best option if I buy a return. The NR site does not bring up the option, nor is there an "Oxford group." In fact, it won't offer a return if I choose my whole journey from Essex.

I presume I would only be able to start from Oxford if I went the Oxford Parkway - High Wycombe route, with a return to Oxford. What if I had a return from after Oxford, like Culham, which was before on the out leg?

Will be interesting trying this new train station. I am guessing it will be rammed with people wanting to go to Bicester Village or even London for the sales. Hmm..

I read the link on "negative easement" 700598, but couldn't really understand it. Does it affect the London -> Oxford journey? I guess not as that update was before your journey. Or is it invalid due to "Any Permitted from or via Oxford to London or beyond will not be valid on the new services via High Wycombe and will remain valid only via Reading." However, operationally as Nicholas43 found out, it was fine. Presumably if challenged I would have an issue.. Ugh, confused.. might just take bus!

 

[Nicholas43]

Thanks for posting your journey Nicholas43. I plan to do the journey in reverse and hope that there are no issues.

Amusingly, for 28 December (for example), NRE offers a day return Waterloo to Islip, £24-80, via Basingstoke and the rail replacement bus Oxford - Oxford Parkway. It will be printed as LONDON TERMINALS (I think). If so, it is beyond doubt valid between Islip and Marylebone via High Wycombe, because, according to the Conditions of Carriage:

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.

I read the link on "negative easement" 700598, but couldn't really understand it.

Only 3 people have ever understood this "negative easement" (translation: purported embuggerance). One of them is dead, one has forgotten the explanation, and one has gone mad.
This embuggerance purports to make London Terminals - Oxford "any permitted route" tickets invalid if used via High Wycombe. It has, apparently, been introduced because DB Arriva and First Group have failed (or not seriously tried?) to agree how much of the revenue Chiltern Railways will get from such "any permitted" tickets. Currently, DB Arriva has failed (or deliberately refrained?) from adding High Wycombe as a mapped route. And, even madder, DB Arriva has not set any fares London - Oxford (Frideswide Square), or for that matter Princes Risborough - Frideswide Square. (For Princes Risborough, they offer only the historic, now daft, fares via Banbury.)

The current position is a follows. For some years Chiltern Railways has had a franchise to operate trains between Oxford (Frideswide Square) and Bicester (London Road). Since October 2015 this service has been extended to Marylebone, via a new chord at Bicester. Currently, there are rail replacement buses between Oxford (Frideswide Square) and Oxford (Parkway). These are correctly identified as rail replacement buses in NRE's journey planner. (They are falsely described as a "Bus-Rail connection service" in Chiltern Railways printed timetables.)
Accordingly, purported embuggerance 700598 is nullified by condition 13 (a) (i), quoted above. Moreover, even if (which it doesn't) purported embuggerance 700598 made sense, Chiltern Railways has no basis for correctly excessing a passenger who holds an "any permitted" ticket, because DB Arriva has not set any London-Oxford (Frideswide Square) fares via High Wycombe.

(Incidentally, for 28 December, I can't seem to get any fares from Essex via London, I presume because there are rail replacement buses from Ingatestone.)

 

[CyrusWuff]

Currently, there are rail replacement buses between Oxford (Frideswide Square) and Oxford (Parkway). These are correctly identified as rail replacement buses in NRE's journey planner. (They are falsely described as a "Bus-Rail connection service" in Chiltern Railways printed timetables.)

I'm sure Chiltern would argue that they are service buses that happen to accept rail tickets, rather than dedicated rail replacement bus services, and are just shown in journey planners to give the impression of an "integrated" system.

Conversely, the Princes Risborough - Chinnor Bus Link (Redline Buses route 320), for which through ticketing is also available, doesn't appear in journey planners.

Accordingly, purported embuggerance 700598 is nullified by condition 13 (a) (i), quoted above.

Given that Condition 13(a)(i) explicitly requires you to be able to make your entire journey without changing trains, I fail to see any possible interpretation of that which permits the use of a bus service for part of the journey!

Once the line is open between Oxford Parkway and Oxford for passenger services, then I would agree that the "direct train" requirement is met. The "shortest route" test fails by three miles, and Marylebone - Bicester - Oxford isn't (currently) a mapped route either.

 

[Nicholas43]

I'm sure Chiltern would argue that they are service buses that happen to accept rail tickets

So they might. But I stand by my opinion that they would be wrong. They are obliged to provide a train service Oxford - Bicester. For their commercial convenience, during the hugely over-running engineering work to re-instate double track, they have arranged for part of this train service to be replaced by (an ad hoc extension of) OBC bus 500 between Frideswide Square and Parkway. The fact that these ersatz-trains are also available, as buses, to the general public is irrelevant.
Likewise, if I am travelling on a direct train which breaks down, I can change to one that works.
Incidentally, I think the true test is the classic route to Paddington via Hanger Lane, ignoring the new-fangled diversion to Marylebone. But alas I think that fails by about a mile.

 

[radamfi]

Is it possible to buy a ticket to Oxford Parkway from somewhere not on the line between Marylebone and Bicester Town/Village? I don't seem to be able to find fares online.

 

[Chelmo13]

Only 3 people have ever understood this "negative easement" (translation: purported embuggerance). One of them is dead, one has forgotten the explanation, and one has gone mad.

Ah, Lord Palmerston, though for some reason I was reminded of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy at first.

Thanks for the replies Nicholas43 and CyrusWuff. It would appear that there are arguments for both sides, but I wonder what the guards are told. If there is this negative easement, then would it be correct to assume the guards are directed to follow it? Then again, I believe Oxford Parkway is unmanned. Operationally, it would appear that the tickets work both ways, unless they have updated. I note that the London to Oxford Parkway ticket is slightly cheaper by 10p.

I think my issue would be using the ticket at Oxford Parkway, but I see the best option is to choose via Oxford Parkway. At least my itinerary would show that. Although, I have had arguments in the past due to this. Perhaps, they will show more leniency over Christmas if there is an issue, since the Thames Valley route is closed. Although, there is no temporarary concession for this.

Yes, I was aware the trains started from Ingatestone due to engineering works. However, the booking engine would be unhelpful for someone who did not know.

Radamfi, I don't see a problem booking a ticket to Oxford Parkway from elsewhere with NRE. Are you trying to book during Christmas engineering works? Like the issue I mentioned, the booking engine just sees no return train.

I am still unsure whether I wish to test the return route via Oxford Parkway, using an Oxford to London any permitted ticket. The NRE booking engine does not offer the route as a return..

 

[radamfi]

Radamfi, I don't see a problem booking a ticket to Oxford Parkway from elsewhere with NRE. Are you trying to book during Christmas engineering works? Like the issue I mentioned, the booking engine just sees no return train.

I tried the First Transpennine Express website from Three Bridges to Oxford Parkway for today and it said no fares and brfares.com also doesn't show any fares. Similarly for East Croydon to Oxford Parkway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The ticket machine at Oxford Parkway says no tickets to Three Bridges or East Croydon.

 

[davetheguard]

Ah, Lord Palmerston, though for some reason I was reminded of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy at first.

Thanks for the replies Nicholas43 and CyrusWuff. It would appear that there are arguments for both sides, but I wonder what the guards are told. If there is this negative easement, then would it be correct to assume the guards are directed to follow it? Then again, I believe Oxford Parkway is unmanned. Operationally, it would appear that the tickets work both ways, unless they have updated. I note that the London to Oxford Parkway ticket is slightly cheaper by 10p.

I think my issue would be using the ticket at Oxford Parkway, but I see the best option is to choose via Oxford Parkway. At least my itinerary would show that. Although, I have had arguments in the past due to this. Perhaps, they will show more leniency over Christmas if there is an issue, since the Thames Valley route is closed. Although, there is no temporarary concession for this.

Yes, I was aware the trains started from Ingatestone due to engineering works. However, the booking engine would be unhelpful for someone who did not know.

Radamfi, I don't see a problem booking a ticket to Oxford Parkway from elsewhere with NRE. Are you trying to book during Christmas engineering works? Like the issue I mentioned, the booking engine just sees no return train.

I am still unsure whether I wish to test the return route via Oxford Parkway, using an Oxford to London any permitted ticket. The NRE booking engine does not offer the route as a return..

I'm not sure what you mean by "guards". There are no Guards on Chiltern Line trains south of Banbury as far as I know - all DOO, apart (I assume) from the loco hauled trains. So just the occasional, random ticket check by RPI's on board most services, backed up by the deterrent of Penalty Fares.

However, in addition both Marylebone and Oxford Parkway stations do have staffed automatic ticket barriers.

 

[Nicholas43]

Is it possible to buy a ticket to Oxford Parkway from somewhere not on the line between Marylebone and Bicester Town/Village? I don't seem to be able to find fares online.

NRE gives fares (for example) Didcot to Oxford Parkway, but GWR won't sell them, as far as I can see. They do sell tickets to Oxford PlusBus, and these are valid on the rail replacement buses. Or you can buy a ticket to Islip, and stop short.
I don't know whether Oxford London "any permitted" tickets are still opening the barriers at Parkway. Or whether Chiltern staff at Parkway can cope with issuing zero-priced excesses to the High Wycombe route.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I tried the First Transpennine Express website from Three Bridges to Oxford Parkway for today and it said no fares and brfares.com also doesn't show any fares. Similarly for East Croydon to Oxford Parkway.

BRFares won't show any fares until the January fares data is uploaded as the service started between fares rounds and they don't have an (eyewateringly expensive) licence to get more frequent updates (starting from £2728.80 a year inc. VAT for monthly updates, and rising to £23620.80 for daily updates, and £40284 to include timetable updates as well).

 

[radamfi]

Looks like the fares I couldn't get yesterday are now available from First Transpennine Express. Was it a temporary fault or did someone fix it after looking at this thread? It did seem amazing that they couldn't even be found at the ticket machine at Oxford Parkway.

 

[Chelmo13]

I'm not sure what you mean by "guards". There are no Guards on Chiltern Line trains south of Banbury as far as I know - all DOO, apart (I assume) from the loco hauled trains. So just the occasional, random ticket check by RPI's on board most services, backed up by the deterrent of Penalty Fares.

Sorry by "guards" I meant the ticket inspectors on the train. I still think of them collectively as guards for some reason

NRE gives fares (for example) Didcot to Oxford Parkway, but GWR won't sell them, as far as I can see. They do sell tickets to Oxford PlusBus, and these are valid on the rail replacement buses. Or you can buy a ticket to Islip, and stop short.
I don't know whether Oxford London "any permitted" tickets are still opening the barriers at Parkway. Or whether Chiltern staff at Parkway can cope with issuing zero-priced excesses to the High Wycombe route.

No worries Nicholas43. OK, now it seems the price of a return from Essex to Oxford is the same for Oxford & Oxford Parkway. I can book a return to Oxford, via Oxford Parkway on NRE. I think that was your option, wasn't it Nicholas43? So the question is, since it is "any permitted," would I be able to go via Reading/Didcot on the out leg? The ticket is surely printed "Essex" to Oxford Any permitted, so the presumption must be the passenger intends the Reading route..

 

[Nicholas43]

.... I can book a return to Oxford, via Oxford Parkway on NRE. I think that was your option, wasn't it Nicholas43? So the question is, since it is "any permitted," would I be able to go via Reading/Didcot on the out leg? The ticket is surely printed "Essex" to Oxford Any permitted, so the presumption must be the passenger intends the Reading route..

Yes, Chelmsford Oxford + any permitted is unquestionably valid via Paddington and Slough on the outward journey. In my opinion, it's also valid to return via Parkway and High Wycombe. And it probably opens the barriers at Parkway and Marylebone. To crush any contrary opinion that Chiltern staff might advance, take a print of the itinerary via Parkway that you get from NRE.

 

[Nicholas43]

... what exactly would happen if you turned up at Marylebone and asked for a Cheap Day Return to Oxford via their Oxford Parkway route? What are they going to sell you? Is there a via High Wycombe fare that I don't know about? Surely the're not going to say "you'll have to go via Paddington" are they?

Amazingly, yes they are. On 29 January 2016, I politely enquired at the ticket office at Marylebone. The friendly clerk offered me a day return for £31.00. When prompted, he explained that it included the underground to Paddington. (It is, of course, a ticket Zone 1 to Oxford, route any permitted, restriction P7.)
After some further prompting, he offered me the combination of a day return to Oxford Parkway (£24.90) and an anytime return on the rail replacement bus between Oxford Parkway and Oxford (£2.80).
As far as I can discover, neither journey planners, nor trainsplit, will offer this rail+replacement bus combination.
It appears therefore that the journey planners have now implemented the devious and passenger-hostile "negative easement" 700598. It remains my opinion that, despite this purported "negative easement", the "any permitted" day return London Terminals - Oxford (£25.00) is valid via High Wycombe, because there are direct trains from Marylebone to Oxford, part of whose journey is replaced by a bus during the hugely over-running engineering work to re-instate double track on the section between Water Eaton and Oxford.
Advanced students may wish to ponder the validity of "any permitted" tickets Islip - London Terminals, particularly if you travel on one of the through services that Chiltern advertise which include a reversal at Oxford Parkway.

 

[embers25]

Amazingly, yes they are. On 29 January 2016, I politely enquired at the ticket office at Marylebone. The friendly clerk offered me a day return for £31.00. When prompted, he explained that it included the underground to Paddington. (It is, of course, a ticket Zone 1 to Oxford, route any permitted, restriction P7.)
After some further prompting, he offered me the combination of a day return to Oxford Parkway (£24.90) and an anytime return on the rail replacement bus between Oxford Parkway and Oxford (£2.80).
As far as I can discover, neither journey planners, nor trainsplit, will offer this rail+replacement bus combination.
It appears therefore that the journey planners have now implemented the devious and passenger-hostile "negative easement" 700598. It remains my opinion that, despite this purported "negative easement", the "any permitted" day return London Terminals - Oxford (£25.00) is valid via High Wycombe, because there are direct trains from Marylebone to Oxford, part of whose journey is replaced by a bus during the hugely over-running engineering work to re-instate double track on the section between Water Eaton and Oxford.
Advanced students may wish to ponder the validity of "any permitted" tickets Islip - London Terminals, particularly if you travel on one of the through services that Chiltern advertise which include a reversal at Oxford Parkway.

They have a special board advertising the next Oxford via Parkway train at Marylebone which seems a tad pointless

 

[455driver]

Amazingly, yes they are. On 29 January 2016, I politely enquired at the ticket office at Marylebone. The friendly clerk offered me a day return for £31.00. When prompted, he explained that it included the underground to Paddington. (It is, of course, a ticket Zone 1 to Oxford, route any permitted, restriction P7.)
After some further prompting, he offered me the combination of a day return to Oxford Parkway (£24.90) and an anytime return on the rail replacement bus between Oxford Parkway and Oxford (£2.80).
As far as I can discover, neither journey planners, nor trainsplit, will offer this rail+replacement bus combination.
It appears therefore that the journey planners have now implemented the devious and passenger-hostile "negative easement" 700598. It remains my opinion that, despite this purported "negative easement", the "any permitted" day return London Terminals - Oxford (£25.00) is valid via High Wycombe, because there are direct trains from Marylebone to Oxford, part of whose journey is replaced by a bus during the hugely over-running engineering work to re-instate double track on the section between Water Eaton and Oxford.
Advanced students may wish to ponder the validity of "any permitted" tickets Islip - London Terminals, particularly if you travel on one of the through services that Chiltern advertise which include a reversal at Oxford Parkway.

Why don't you go out and do it and let us know how you get on rather than load the gun for other people!
There are no 'through' trains from Marylebone to Oxford, there are trains to Oxford Parkway (look up 'parkway' in a dictionary) with a connecting bus to Oxford!

Where are these "through" trains from Islip-London terminals which reverse at Oxford Parkway you mention?

 

[Nicholas43]

Where are these "through" trains from Islip-London terminals which reverse at Oxford Parkway you mention?

In Chiltern's printed timetables, for example leaflet 7. There are several, starting with the 0612 departure from Islip, note c, "runs via Oxford Parkway", arrive Marylebone 0730.
These leaflets do, on the other hand, falsely describe the rail replacement buses between Oxford and Oxford Parkway as a "bus - rail connection service". NRE, and the announcements at Oxford Parkway, correctly describe them as a rail replacement. On the screens at Oxford, they are displayed as Chiltern services, replaced by a bus.
Chiltern has for some years had the franchise to operate trains from Oxford to Bicester London Road. During the over-running engineering work, these have been replaced by buses, first from Oxford to Bicester, and currently only from Oxford to Water Eaton. Happily the service from Oxford to Bicester is now extended, via the new chord, to London Marylebone. Chiltern proudly, and correctly, advertise it as the first new link for 100 years between a major city and London, not just a link from a grim car park outside that city.
Likewise, during a (hypothetical?) time when there were replacement buses between Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway, you would still be able to buy a ticket from (for example) Birmingham to Bristol Temple Meads, including the rail replacement bus. Moreover, you can buy a ticket from Bicester "Village" (recte Hideous Shopping Mall) to Oxford, including the rail replacement bus.

 

[FOH]

Apologies for dragging up an old thread but it seems a far better place to ask this question than to start a new thread.

My wife and a friend fancy doing Oxford and Bicester Village in a day from London. From reading this thread would I be correct in saying an Off peak day return to Bicester Village would be ok for this, going to Oxford from Paddington then self funding to Oxford Parkway, then train to Bicester Village then train to Marylebone. Or would they be better with an Oxford ticket. Or do neither of these combos work?!

 

[Nicholas43]

Paddington Oxford is a permitted route, and fares include the rail replacement bus Oxford to Oxford Parkway. For some years, via Oxford was the only reasonable route to Bicester Town (as it was then called).

 

[FOH]

Ok thanks very much for the advice