Fares to Oxford & Oxford Parkway

[davetheguard]

A friend is looking to travel from London in a week or so to Oxford via the new Marylebone - Bicester - Oxford Parkway route, and is asking for advice. Am I right in thinking that a London Terminals to Oxford Cheap Day Return at £24.80 will be valid via both Chiltern & Great Western routes and enable him to go out one route and back the other?

I was also checking how the fare to Oxford compares with that just to Oxford Parkway; but I'm getting some unexpected results:

For a London to Oxford Parkway CDR I'm getting £24.70 on NRE; £27.20 from Chiltern's website; and no fares at all from brfares.com! Can anybody clarify?

Thanks in advance for any help with my two questions....

 

[Romilly]

As regards the fares to Oxford Parkway, the £24.20 is an offpeak day return and the £27.20 is an offpeak return.

Also, there are Advance fares to/from Oxford Parkway starting from £6 one-way.

The VT East Coast website offers a £24.80 offpeak day return (or £27.30 offpeak return) for London Terminals to Bicester Village with itineraries via Didcot or via High Wycombe. If your friend is definitely going to travel out one way and come back the other, this might be an option.

 

[Haydn1971]

By way of clarification - is it possible to travel from Oxford to Oxford Parkway yet ?

 

[swt_passenger]

A friend is looking to travel from London in a week or so to Oxford via the new Marylebone - Bicester - Oxford Parkway route, and is asking for advice. Am I right in thinking that a London Terminals to Oxford Cheap Day Return at £24.80 will be valid via both Chiltern & Great Western routes and enable him to go out one route and back the other?

There's a long discussion about this in the 'routing guide updates' thread that explains there is a negative easement intended to prevent London to Oxford any permitted fares being used via High Wycombe.

You'll find explanations there of why the fare can be used, but it seems clear that some part of 'the railway' doesn't want you to do that, so make sure your friend can argue their case.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2330950&postcount=318

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By way of clarification - is it possible to travel from Oxford to Oxford Parkway yet ?

Only using the park and ride bus route 500, the tracks are lifted.

 

[yorkie]

It's better to wait until the line is fully open; London to Oxford tickets will then be indisputably valid on for use on either route.

A negative easement cannot ever affect trains valid as per NRCoC Condition 13 (a)(i) or (ii).

 

[Haydn1971]

Only using the park and ride bus route 500, the tracks are lifted.

Cheers....

 

[Romilly]

Which may suggest that the VT East Coast website has implemented the "easement" for tickets to/from Oxford Parkway but not for tickets to/from Bicester Village.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A negative easement cannot ever affect trains valid as per NRCoC Condition 13 (a)(i) or (iii).

Did you mean "(iii)" or "(ii)"?

 

[davetheguard]

There's a long discussion about this in the 'routing guide updates' thread that explains there is a negative easement intended to prevent London to Oxford any permitted fares being used via High Wycombe.

You'll find explanations there of why the fare can be used, but it seems clear that some part of 'the railway' doesn't want you to do that, so make sure your friend can argue their case.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2330950&postcount=318

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



Only using the park and ride bus route 500, the tracks are lifted.

So if "some part of the railway doesn't want you to do that" i.e. use the £24.80 London Terminals - Oxford fare out of Marylebone, what exactly would happen if you turned up at Marylebone and asked for a Cheap Day Return to Oxford via their Oxford Parkway route? What are they going to sell you? Is there a via High Wycombe fare that I don't know about? Surely the're not going to say "you'll have to go via Paddington" are they?

I'd have thought that the £24.80 fare being valid via the High Wycome would be good for Chiltern; it would give them a chunk of the London - Oxford revenue whether people used it or not?

 

[Tetchytyke]

You are assuming, of course, that it is Chiltern objecting to the ticket being valid via High Wycombe...

 

[swt_passenger]

So if "some part of the railway doesn't want you to do that" i.e. use the £24.80 London Terminals - Oxford fare out of Marylebone, what exactly would happen if you turned up at Marylebone and asked for a Cheap Day Return to Oxford via their Oxford Parkway route? What are they going to sell you? Is there a via High Wycombe fare that I don't know about? Surely the're not going to say "you'll have to go via Paddington" are they?

I have absolutely know idea what might happen. Just aiming to point out that your friend might end up in a 'situation' where a good knowledge of routing rules might come in handy.

 

[davetheguard]

You are assuming, of course, that it is Chiltern objecting to the ticket being valid via High Wycombe...

Yes indeed, I've assumed that because that is the only thing that I can see that has changed.

I can understand that Great Western will not be keen in sharing revenue with Chiltern, but I can't see what they can do about it, short of introducing a cheaper via Didcot fare, undercutting the any permitted fare. They haven't done so, and as a result, I can't see how "your friend may have to argue his case" if presenting a London Terminals to Oxford Cheap Day Return either on a Great Western train or at either Oxford or Paddington. That ticket is surely valid there and always has been.......

I want to give my friend the correct advice, but not cause him problems with staff over validities. There can't be any problem between Oxford & Paddington with the above ticket, can there?

 

[LexyBoy]

Chiltern would rather all the money from passengers travelling their route went to them; GWR likewise. Of course there's no more money available, so neither benefits, but the passenger gets flexibility removed.

Anyway... A London-Oxford Any Permitted ticket is of course valid via Reading. At the moment it is debatable whether it is via High Wycombe, because this is not a direct service and may not qualify as the shortest route (since the first/last leg is not by rail). Mapped routes are forbidden by an easement.

NRE does show this ticket as valid to Parkway and then on the bus, however. Not the WebTIS engines though.

 

[Adam0984]

I have the same question except my query is from Birmingham to Oxford, going to Oxford via Chiltern changing at Haddenham and using the 500 to Oxford Stn. Coming back on XC

 

[davetheguard]

Chiltern would rather all the money from passengers travelling their route went to them; GWR likewise. Of course there's no more money available, so neither benefits, but the passenger gets flexibility removed.

Anyway... A London-Oxford Any Permitted ticket is of course valid via Reading. At the moment it is debatable whether it is via High Wycombe, because this is not a direct service and may not qualify as the shortest route (since the first/last leg is not by rail). Mapped routes are forbidden by an easement.

NRE does show this ticket as valid to Parkway and then on the bus, however. Not the WebTIS engines though.

Would it be reasonable to tell him to ask for a Cheap Day Return from (and at) Marylebone to Oxford, and then a) if it is routed in some way e.g. via High Wycombe - to return the same way he has come; and b) if it is routed "any permitted" - to return via Reading to Paddington?

Obviously, I don't want him to have problems/arguements/penalty fares en route. He'll want to have a pleasant day out, enjoying the new railway infrastructure; not ticket disputes!

Or are there any better solutions, short of buying singles; or putting it in the "too difficult" box and not going at all?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The best solution in that case might be London to Oxford day return ROUTE HIGH WYCOMBE, excessing on the return to the ANY PERMITTED day return ticket. If I've understood things correctly that would cost the princely sum of 5p.

ETA: Scrap that, can't find an Oxford ROUTE HIGH WYCOMBE ticket on Chiltern Railways.

 

[davetheguard]

The best solution in that case might be London to Oxford day return ROUTE HIGH WYCOMBE, excessing on the return to the ANY PERMITTED day return ticket. If I've understood things correctly that would cost the princely sum of 5p.

ETA: Scrap that, can't find an Oxford ROUTE HIGH WYCOMBE ticket on Chiltern Railways.

This is exactly what I don't understand about the situation. Lets put the inter-availability issue to one side for a moment and just consider making a journey from Marylebone to Oxford; out & back via Chiltern.

Various people are saying that a route "any permitted" London Terminals to Oxford may not be valid/accepted for travel on Chiltern. But nobody seems to know what fare between London & Oxford WILL definitely be accepted on Chiltern.

Surely there must be a fare that they will accept without potential problems for the customer? All this positive publicity about "the first new link between British cities for 100 years" would quickly go pear-shaped if you couldn't actually buy a ticket for the journey!

The new line has now been open over a week. Surely in that time someone will have bought a ticket between Marylebone & Oxford or vice-versa. Surely there has either to be a) a route "High Wycombe" fare or b) acceptance of the "any permitted" route ticket?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Chiltern Railways don't serve Oxford yet.

 

[davetheguard]

Chiltern Railways don't serve Oxford yet.

Chiltern Railways do serve Oxford and they have done since they took the Bicester Town (now Village) route over from Great Western a few years back.

With the line has since closed for rebuilding, there has been a rail replacement bus between the two places. Shown in rail timetables, accepting rail tickets.

While the line between Bicester & the new intermediate station of Oxford Parkway has re-opened, there is still a rail replacement bus in operation. It runs from Oxford Parkway railway station to Oxford railway station. It is shown in rail timetables; it accepts railway tickets.

This is a railway service, whether or not it is physically a train. So there has to be a fare available; if there isn't, there damm well should be!

 

[Paul Kelly]

Chiltern also serve Oxford by rail, with their daily (M-F) 2315 Stratford-upon-Avon to Oxford train: http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=P76256

 

[higthomas]

Chiltern also serve Oxford by rail, with their daily (M-F) 2315 Stratford-upon-Avon to Oxford train: http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=P76256

They do in fact do a whole two trains a day, what with having a return to Banbury at 0039!!!

 

[JonathanH]

Is a London Terminals to Bicester Village ticket valid via both routes? I think that this was the one way (as well as Islip) of going out via one route and back by the other. Based on what I have read on this forum, tickets to Oxford are not valid via High Wycombe.

 

[davetheguard]

There's a long discussion about this in the 'routing guide updates' thread that explains there is a negative easement intended to prevent London to Oxford any permitted fares being used via High Wycombe.

You'll find explanations there of why the fare can be used, but it seems clear that some part of 'the railway' doesn't want you to do that, so make sure your friend can argue their case.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2330950&postcount=318

In the end, my friend bought a Marylebone to Oxford Parkway single and a Oxford to Paddington single, plus he had to pay for a single journey "rail replacement" 500 bus between Oxford Parkway and Oxford.

It was his decision, which was made to avoid arguments en route; but I'm not over impressed that he had to pay over twice the cost of a London Terminals to Oxford Cheap Day Return, thanks to this temporary "negative easement."

 

[Starmill]

In the end, my friend bought a Marylebone to Oxford Parkway single and a Oxford to Paddington single, plus he had to pay for a single journey "rail replacement" 500 bus between Oxford Parkway and Oxford.

It was his decision, which was made to avoid arguments en route; but I'm not over impressed that he had to pay over twice the cost of a London Terminals to Oxford Cheap Day Return, thanks to this temporary "negative easement."

That's exactly what they wanted! An Oxfordshire MP needs to be notified of this I think...

One thing that particularly perplexes me is that Oxford Parkway to London Terminals doesn't have an 'Any Permitted' fare (Grr...) but it does have 'Ealing Cm/W Actn' ones (!!!)

 

[peter.owen]

I've done a search on the Virgin Trains West Coast site for trains leaving London after 1000 and returning from Oxford after 1700 on Sunday 29 November. This will find (among other trains) the 1005 from Marylebone to Oxford (via Parkway and the bus) and many return trains to Paddington. The £24.80 off peak return is shown as valid on all of these.

Very few Marylebone trains are shown, presumably because it is nearly always quicker to travel to or from Paddington.

 

[kieron]

I have the same question except my query is from Birmingham to Oxford, going to Oxford via Chiltern changing at Haddenham and using the 500 to Oxford Stn. Coming back on XC

Sorry, I only just noticed this.

A return from Birmingham to Oxford is one option for this journey. The RB map contains both XC routes, and you're travelling between Banbury Group and Oxford without passing through another routeing point on either route. It may be cheaper to split at Leamington and/or Banbury, though.

It was his decision, which was made to avoid arguments en route; but I'm not over impressed that he had to pay over twice the cost of a London Terminals to Oxford Cheap Day Return, thanks to this temporary "negative easement."

Unfortunately, it's really hard to know what staff will question unless you use the line regularly. There are lots of ticket options which are valid under any reasonable interpretation of the rules, but I don't know how familiar staff are likely to be with the relevant rules, how staff in this area are trained to deal with disagreements over ticket validity, or how this is monitored by management.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Working through the Routeing Guide:

Question 1:

Is Marylebone - Bicester Village - Oxford shorter than Paddington - Didcot - Oxford?

Table 116 of the eNRT gives Paddington - Oxford as being 63½ miles

Table 115 gives Marylebone - Haddenham and Thame Parkway as being 41¾ miles and Marylebone - Bicester North as being 54¾
Table 116 gives Bicester Village - Oxford as being 11¾ miles

No distance is given in the eNRT for Haddenham and Thame Parkway to Bicester Village, but looking it up on TRUST gives it as being within 0.1 miles of the distance between Haddenham and Thame Parkway and Bicester North, making no material difference to the rounding for routeing guide purposes.

With that in mind, that makes Marylebone - Bicester Village - Oxford 66½ miles, thus failing the shortest route test.

Question 2:

Is there a direct train between Marylebone and Oxford?

Not at present, so we need to go through the full routeing guide procedure.

Step 1 - Determine routeing point for the origin

Marylebone is a member of the London Group Routeing Point.

Step 2 - Determine routeing point for the destination

Oxford is a routeing point.

Step 3 - Common Routeing Points

None.

Step 4 - Are the routeing points appropriate

As the origin and destination are both routeing points, no fares check is needed.

Step 5 - Permitted Routes

As both stations are routeing points, we skip this step.

Step 6 - Identify the routeing code

Permitted routes between London Group and Oxford can be found on Maps LH and WX+RB.

Step 7 - Use the Maps to determine permitted route(s)

Map LH permits Paddington - Reading - Didcot - Oxford
Map WX+RB permits London - Clapham Junction - Reading - Didcot - Oxford

Ergo Marylebone - Bicester Village - Oxford is not a mapped route either.

Having said that, however, Marylebone - Islip or Marylebone - Bicester Village is shorter than Paddington - Oxford - Islip/Bicester Village and both have direct trains from Marylebone, so tickets to either of those with a route of "Any Permitted" should be accepted via either route...

 

[Nicholas43]

On 25 November I used an Oxford to London Terminals off-peak day return, restriction P7, £16.35 with a senior railcard, to travel via Slough to Paddington, and return via Marylebone, High Wycombe and Oxford Parkway. To my disappointment, my ticket worked the gate barriers at both Marylebone and Oxford Parkway. I had been looking forward to an interesting discussion.
I booked my ticket starting at National Rail Enquiries, specifying travel via Oxford Parkway in both directions. (As posters here will know, you can't specify a different "via" out and back.) I refused the default option of buying from Great Western, and chose Virgin. Virgin issued me the ticket, with an itinerary via Oxford Parkway in both directions. I requested, and received, a "seat reservation" on the 20:37 from Marylebone. This "reservation" shows no actual allocated seat. Armed with my itinerary, and this "reservation", I was expecting gate staff at Marylebone to cave in. But, as already said, my ticket in fact opened the gates at Marylebone and Oxford Parkway, and I had no discussion.
In pursuit of my enquiries, I tested whether a ticket machine at Marylebone would sell me a ticket to Oxford. It would not, claiming that it could find no fares.
I've now done further tests, and find that to be false (and a violation of the rules about impartial retail sales). If you enter Marylebone to Oxford via Oxford Parkway at NRE, it will offer you lots of trains and fares, including the Off-Peak Day Return "any permitted" at £24.80 (without railcard).
It appears to me that NRE, and whoever programs the barriers at Marylebone and Oxford Parkway, have either not yet implemented, or have correctly decided not to implement, the crazy "negative easemement" 700598, discussed in the National Routing Guide update thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2340244&postcount=364
In my opinion, this "negative easement" (translation: purported embuggerance), as well as being daft, is ineffectual. Chiltern Railways are now offering a direct train service from Marylebone to Oxford. For the time being, part of this direct train service is replaced by buses between Oxford Parkway and Oxford, because of over-running engineering work. (Over-running by about 2 years, given that Network Rail is taking much longer to re-instate double track, and install some swanky signalling, on the Bicester to Oxford stretch than it took the Victorians to build the whole line from Bletchley to Rewley Road, from scratch. With only wheelbarrows.) If you doubt that analysis, ponder the fact that an "any permitted" ticket from (for example) Birmingham to London Terminals is valid via Banbury and High Wycombe, including during periods when there are replacement buses between (say) Solihull and Moor Street.
If I'm wrong about that, then I would, in theory, have been liable to pay an excess fare to enable me to travel via High Wycombe. However, the only relevant fare whose existence Chiltern admits is the Off-Peak return London Terminals - Oxford Parkway, route High Wycombe, £16.30 with a railcard. So the excess is zero. (Fudging the point that I travelled out via Slough, of course.)
In short, purported embuggerance 700598 isn't actually working, and can't work.
What, of course, Chiltern should be doing during the bustitution is (a) getting Oxford - High Wycombe - Marylebone mapped as a permitted route; (b) accepting that during the bustitution they can only expect a small part of the revenue from Oxford - London Terminals "any permitted" tickets (just as, I assume, South Eastern only get tuppence a quarter for fanatics who go Oxford - Ascot - Waterloo East - London Bridge); (c) offering keenly-priced tickets Oxford - London, route High Wycombe, to tempt residents of north Oxford away from their current preference of driving to Thornhill and getting a cheap bus to London. Incidentally, the two competing bus companies do not offer a flexible return ticket "Out to Shepherds Bush (for example) and back from Marylebone". However, this does not matter to frequent users, because both companies offer very cheap carnets of single tickets.
If you're still with me, have you any advice on the way to get some sense into Chiltern management? Formal complaint? Polite suggestion?

 

[JonathanH]

Where is the information that a ticket from south of London to Bicester Village is not valid via High Wycombe actually stated in a publicly available location.

Is it on either the Chiltern or GWR website?

Most members of the public would not consult the routeing guide easements before travelling.

Moreover as there is only one set of fares from, say, Croydon Stations to Bicester Village, what exactly is the excess if you turn up at Marylebone?

Finally, I don't think it is totally obvious that Chiltern can easily undercut the fares for the Any Permitted route to Oxford because their fares to Bicester North are often more expensive than fares to Oxford.

 

[dzug2]

. Incidentally, the two competing bus companies do not offer a flexible return ticket "Out to Shepherds Bush (for example) and back from Marylebone".

??? Don't understand this - their tickets are to/from a generic 'London', not a specific stop

 

[Nicholas43]

Where is the information that a ticket from south of London to Bicester Village is not valid via High Wycombe actually stated in a publicly available location.

Nowhere, because any "any permitted" ticket from London Terminals (or "via London") to Bicester Village (or Islip) is unquestionably valid via Slough or High Wycombe. This is because High Wycombe is the shortest route.
Earlier, and utterly cockamamie, drafts of "negative easement" 700598 did purport to declare that Marylebone - High Wycombe - Bicester Village is not a "permitted route", as discussed in the National Routing Guide updates thread. That nonsense has now been abandoned.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2340244&postcount=364

Finally, I don't think it is totally obvious that Chiltern can easily undercut the fares for the Any Permitted route to Oxford because their fares to Bicester North are often more expensive than fares to Oxford.

It's a matter for DB Arriva / Chiltern 's commercial judgment what "any permitted" (in practice, High Wycombe) fares they offer London Terminals to Bicester North, and what "route High Wycombe", or "booked train only" fares they offer to Bicester Village, Islip, Oxford Parkway, Oxford (and possibly beyond, such as Radley now, and one day, they hope, Morris Cowley).

??? Don't understand this - their tickets are to/from a generic 'London', not a specific stop

Indeed. But the two companies take different routes from Acton to Marble Arch, one via Shepherds Bush, and one via Marylebone.