Fast loco hauled runs

[Taunton]

I knew the Edinburgh-Glasgow line in the 1970s with the 2x27 push-pulls, loco and line rated at 90mph. It was quite common to get up to 100mph, particularly if the start was a couple of minutes late. Generally a bit faster eastbound because the charge up Cowlairs bank was quicker than the (quite rightly) more cautious descent. Did the 46 miles to Haymarket, scheduled at 39 minutes when nonstop, in less than 37 minutes a couple of times, which is 75mph average. It was a pretty good performance for small Type 2 locos. I described some of the runs here a while ago :

ScotRail Express in the 1980s | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

 

[DanNCL]

Last year my GPS recorded 140mph on a 91 hauled set descending Stoke Bank, and hovered around that speed for around 2-3 minutes before gradually slowing down to 125 mph. I know GPS signals aren’t always accurate so there’s a decent chance it wasn’t really doing 140mph, although it did feel quite a bit faster than usual, indeed that was what prompted me to check GPS in the first place!

Not a loco, though I have on a couple of occasions clocked Tyne & Wear Metro units doing quite a bit faster than their maximum permitted 80 kph on the Sunderland line. This was on unrefurbished units which at the time had a window between the cab and the passenger saloon, if the blind had been left open you could see the speedometer from the front passenger seat.

 

[hexagon789]

I knew the Edinburgh-Glasgow line in the 1970s with the 2x27 push-pulls, loco and line rated at 90mph. It was quite common to get up to 100mph, particularly if the start was a couple of minutes late. Generally a bit faster eastbound because the charge up Cowlairs bank was quicker than the (quite rightly) more cautious descent. Did the 46 miles to Haymarket, scheduled at 39 minutes when nonstop, in less than 37 minutes a couple of times, which is 75mph average. It was a pretty good performance for small Type 2 locos. I described some of the runs here a while ago :

ScotRail Express in the 1980s | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

Looking at the RPS fastest times they have two logs at about 34.5 mins for the 45.95mi.

34m31 westbound (79.87mph) and 34m29 eastbound (79.95mph). Both mid-1980s with 47/7s.

 

[SteveM70]

I did clock a DMU (a 108? I am not really sure) at 70mph from behind the drivers cab between Barmouth and Tywyn. It was on a family holiday in about 1980 or 1981. Seemed rather fast at the time for the winding route above the sea… I have no idea what the speed limit there is though.

That reminds me - we had a lot of family holidays in Tywyn when I was little (my dad had volunteered on the Talyllyn in its very early preservation days and liked to go back) and I recall a trip back to Tywyn from further up the coast. It was probably the last train of the night as it was dusk, and it felt like we were really going some - rocking and rolling all over the place, much more than any other run we had

 

[cambsy]

DanNCL, I think its highly un likely that your 91 set, would have doing 140mph down Stoke bank, as I think they might be governed down, to about 125mph, and if not, the driver wouldnt risk that sort of excessive speed intentionally, I have seen logs of HST in last few years hitting about 130mph, but definitely no 140mph 91 runs, so i would say you probably did 125-127mph, but maybe 128-130mph, but no more than that, the days of 135-140mph with 91’s, I’m afraid, are long gone.

 

[hexagon789]

DanNCL, I think its highly un likely that your 91 set, would have doing 140mph down Stoke bank, as I think they might be governed down, to about 125mph, and if not, the driver wouldnt risk that sort of excessive speed intentionally, I have seen logs of HST in last few years hitting about 130mph, but definitely no 140mph 91 runs, so i would say you probably did 125-127mph, but maybe 128-130mph, but no more than that, the days of 135-140mph with 91’s, I’m afraid, are long gone.

If the driver doesn't set the ASL nothing to stop them touching 140...

And in a recent article on ECML Azuma performance vs 91/HST, Mr Heaton mentions that while the Azumas are driven on the speedset, 91s are still sometimes driven manually.

 

[Taunton]

Last year my GPS recorded 140mph on a 91 hauled set descending Stoke Bank, and hovered around that speed for around 2-3 minutes before gradually slowing down to 125 mph.

I always look out for the big Mallard commemoration lineside sign when on Stoke bank. Feel it's a shame there isn't a comparable one at Wellington for City of Truro.

 

[cambsy]

Hexagon789, thats interesting to hear, that if the ASL isn’t set, that the 91’s could still do 140mph, though I’m pretty certain, that they haven’t, touched those sort of speeds since the 90’s, and if im correct, the driver would get sacked for that sort of excessive speed, unless exceptionally extenuating circumstances, could be shown? if driver does 126-127mph, fairly Regularly , would anything be said to them, by the driver manager?.

 

[Taunton]

if driver does 126-127mph, fairly Regularly , would anything be said to them, by the driver manager?.

The famed 1950s-60s speedy driver Bill Hoole also apparently had more than one Signal Passed At Danger (SPAD), in the days when only the more mainstream ones ever got reported. In think Gerry Fiennes, in charge of the GN line at the time, had to have a serious discussion with his senior inspectors over whether to take him off main line work, which was as bad as it got in those days.

 

[cambsy]

I remember reading about drivers like Hoole and Hailstone‘s exploits, one famous one being, while driving a freight train, one of them, set off behind a Leeds express, and actually gained on it, and another, Where one of them, were going for Mallards record, but the footplate inspector, at over 110mph, told him to ease off, I think I read , that the senior management, were not best happy with them, and they were quite a headache for them, with their cavalier, but exciting exploits.

I think that in BR days, up to the late 90’s, driver managers etc, had a more lax attitude to speeding, and hard nosed driving was encouraged, and even needed by the East Coast timetable of the time, with the infamous 101 mins from King Cross to York, of the Scottish Pullmans. I think the East coast drivers, were renowned for taking, their newest steeds, and driving them hard and fast from the off, from logs i have seen of the time, I think 130mph was quite common, and 135-140mph happened occasionally.

I dont know what happened if a driver at that time, was clocked doing 130mph plus, wether it was instant dismissal or a warning?. The drivers, I chatted to at the time, although never admitted speeds they did, definitely gave the feeling, that they weren’t afraid to run hard, and drive hard nosed, and had pride in making up time, and giving a good run, when needed, un like today, where its very much run steady and safely etc,

 

[hexagon789]

Hexagon789, thats interesting to hear, that if the ASL isn’t set, that the 91’s could still do 140mph, though I’m pretty certain, that they haven’t, touched those sort of speeds since the 90’s, and if im correct, the driver would get sacked for that sort of excessive speed, unless exceptionally extenuating circumstances, could be shown? if driver does 126-127mph, fairly Regularly , would anything be said to them, by the driver manager?.

The data panels still read 140, and the ASL goes up to 150!

I remember reading about drivers like Hoole and Hailstone‘s exploits, one famous one being, while driving a freight train, one of them, set off behind a Leeds express, and actually gained on it

Yes, I remember reading of that one. ISTR a guard of the time remarked that Hoole only knew 2 driving techniques - full regulator and full-on brakes!

Perhaps the guard preferred a more sedate trundling life at 25mph on a loose coupled goods?

and another, Where one of them, were going for Mallards record, but the footplate inspector, at over 110mph, told him to ease off

Presumably the run on Sir Nigel Gresley in the latter 1950s that touches 112, at which point Alan Peglar (who was on the footplate) told the driver to ease off. To be fair the infrastructure wasn't in quite as good nick as pre-war, so it was probably wise.

I think that in BR days, up to the late 90’s, driver managers etc, had a more lax attitude to speeding, and hard nosed driving was encouraged, and even needed by the East Coast timetable of the time, with the infamous 101 mins from King Cross to York, of the Scottish Pullmans. I think the East coast drivers, were renowned for taking, their newest steeds, and driving them hard and fast from the off, from logs i have seen of the time, I think 130mph was quite common, and 135-140mph happened occasionally.

I dont know what happened if a driver at that time, was clocked doing 130mph plus, wether it was instant dismissal or a warning?. The drivers, I chatted to at the time, although never admitted speeds they did, definitely gave the feeling, that they weren’t afraid to run hard, and drive hard nosed, and had pride in making up time, and giving a good run, when needed, un like today, where its very much run steady and safely etc,

I was once told by an ex-driver that 'unofficially' - exceeding linespeed was tolerated to a fair degree, exceeding PSRs by more than a small margin not quite so much.

 

[cambsy]

Hexagon789, I read one timed log of a 91, which left Kings Cross about 8 mins late, with think a 6-7 car formation, and DVT, proceeded to run to to Doncaster centre road, for a fault stop, in about 79 mins, despite signals, near Stevenage, then onto York in about 19 mins, with total net time 0f about, 94-95 mins, the train was doing 136-140mph.

The timer, said a possibility for the speeds done, was the speedo under reading, as the speeds recorded, even soon after Kings cross, were some what above line speed, so would a driver know from feel of riding, and the speeds things coming towards him, that the speedo was under reading by 6-10 Mph? Do you think the driver realised this and just pushed on anyway, at same speeds, or not realise he was going quite so fast?

What do modern East coast drivers, think of this sort of running, even if speedo was correct?.

 

[Taunton]

I was once told by an ex-driver that 'unofficially' - exceeding linespeed was tolerated to a fair degree, exceeding PSRs by more than a small margin not quite so much.

You have to bear in mind that most steam locomotives didn't have speedometers at all. Gresley did fit them to his mainstream express locos, but I don't think the GWR ever did, and it was really down to the drivers' judgement.

Come the diesels and they had simplistic, cable-and-spring devices, which gave little more than an approximation. Walking through a 1960s corridor emu, SR 4-CEP and 4-TC, where you could see into the intermediate cabs, and it was notable how different one speedometer could be from the other. One of these I recall just bounced between 60 and 90, presumably due to a spring somewhere having gone weak. Were there even any test equipments available to depot fitters to calibrate them?

An exception was the Western Region dynamometer car, which apparently overcame all this and, though still mechanical, gave immaculate indications, even impressing Cecil J Allen who checked it against his redoubtable stopwatch.

 

[hexagon789]

Hexagon789, I read one timed log of a 91, which left Kings Cross about 8 mins late, with think a 6-7 car formation, and DVT, proceeded to run to to Doncaster centre road, for a fault stop, in about 79 mins, despite signals, near Stevenage, then onto York in about 19 mins, with total net time 0f about, 94-95 mins, the train was doing 136-140mph.

The fastest RPS logged times are
KGX-Doncaster in 84m31
Donny-York in 18m40

Both 91s, of course there will be many timings not recorded by the RPS, anything is possible and certainly even average logs show up the inaccuracy of speedometers - very recent logs of 91s with a sustained 127 for several miles and a brief peak at 128. The length of continuous 127 running for over 20 miles suggests the ASL was in use but the speedometer slightly under-reading, I'm not sure a driver would manually hold speed so steady for such a distance.

The timer, said a possibility for the speeds done, was the speedo under reading, as the speeds recorded, even soon after Kings cross, were some what above line speed, so would a driver know from feel of riding, and the speeds things coming towards him, that the speedo was under reading by 6-10 Mph? Do you think the driver realised this and just pushed on anyway, at same speeds, or not realise he was going quite so fast?

Even the most experienced steam men seem to have been able to estimate certainly the higher speeds at best to within 5mph of actual speed and the faster you go the less accurate it becomes.

You have to bear in mind that most steam locomotives didn't have speedometers at all. Gresley did fit them to his mainstream express locos, but I don't think the GWR ever did, and it was really down to the drivers' judgement.

Come the diesels and they had simplistic, cable-and-spring devices, which gave little more than an approximation. Walking through a 1960s corridor emu, SR 4-CEP and 4-TC, where you could see into the intermediate cabs, and it was notable how different one speedometer could be from the other. One of these I recall just bounced between 60 and 90, presumably due to a spring somewhere having gone weak. Were there even any test equipments available to depot fitters to calibrate them?

An exception was the Western Region dynamometer car, which apparently overcame all this and, though still mechanical, gave immaculate indications, even impressing Cecil J Allen who checked it against his redoubtable stopwatch.

I believe many Kings and Castles gained Smiths speedos in the 1950s? Although that is of course well past GWR time.

There were methods of calibrating them but even when calibrated fairly accurately the way the worked meant there was always the issue of 'needle wobble'.

There is an story of a particular 47 being constantly reported as low on power as it wouldn't attain more than 85mph indicated, but that was only half the story - 85 indicated was found on recalibration to be closer to 105 actual and what the drivers had failed to say was that in spite of the loco seemingly refusing to go faster than 85, they were having no difficulty in keeping to the timetable!

 

[Taunton]

I believe many Kings and Castles gained Smiths speedos in the 1950s? Although that is of course well past GWR time.

If they were anything like Smiths instruments and electrics in British cars of the era, they would have been pretty useless. I believe Gresley used Hasler instruments, which were made in Switzerland.

 

[hexagon789]

If they were anything like Smiths instruments and electrics in British cars of the era, they would have been pretty useless. I believe Gresley used Hasler instruments, which were made in Switzerland.

I thought the A4s at least had Flaman recorders? Or was that purely on test runs?

 

[Taunton]

I believe the Flaman units actually produced a speed trace on paper as well, which would not be for daily use (though it apparently was in France, where I believe it also recorded their AWS-equivalents from the "crocodile"), but for test runs; it would have been too much of a hoo-hah for normal operations.

 

[hexagon789]

I believe the Flaman units actually produced a speed trace on paper as well, which would not be for daily use (though it apparently was in France, where I believe it also recorded their AWS-equivalents from the "crocodile"), but for test runs; it would have been too much of a hoo-hah for normal operations.

So no regularised equipping with Flaman units then on the LNER. The LNER do seem to have made more of an effort as regards more accurate speed recording - I believe they were the only company of the Big 4 to attempt continuous speed restriction marking with their 'cutout signs'. The GWR only marked severe restrictions where there was no useful local landmark to denote the spot it applied and certain junctions where the diverging routes had differing speeds; the SR only marked TSRs and severe speed restrictions I believe. I've no idea what LMS policy was.

 

[Harvester]

Presumably the run on Sir Nigel Gresley in the latter 1950s that touches 112, at which point Alan Peglar (who was on the footplate) told the driver to ease off. To be fair the infrastructure wasn't in quite as good nick as pre-war, so it was probably wise.

He probably exceeded that a few years earlier, again with 60007 on an up express. Unknown to Bill some technicians with a Hallade track recorder were on the train. The data collected when decending Stoke Bank, indicted that 117mph had been reached. Although these devices were not 100% accurate, speed was very high that day, on a normal passenger service.

 

[hexagon789]

He probably exceeded that a few years earlier, again with 60007 on an up express. Unknown to Bill some technicians with a Hallade track recorder were on the train. The data collected when decending Stoke Bank, indicted that 117mph had been reached. Although these devices were not 100% accurate, speed was very high that day, on a normal passenger service.

If nothing else nice to see even in later life they were still capable of a good turn of speed!

 

[nw1]

I'm not sure if it was that fast, but I do remember getting a good run behind 50007 'Sir Edward Elgar' from Basingstoke to Woking in December 1989. (I think that was my one and only experience of 50 haulage, which might explain how it stuck in my mind).

 

[irish_rail]

Hexagon789, thats interesting to hear, that if the ASL isn’t set, that the 91’s could still do 140mph, though I’m pretty certain, that they haven’t, touched those sort of speeds since the 90’s, and if im correct, the driver would get sacked for that sort of excessive speed, unless exceptionally extenuating circumstances, could be shown? if driver does 126-127mph, fairly Regularly , would anything be said to them, by the driver manager?.

No. A driver can do a consistent 128mph and would probably be fine, as on GWR at least , there is a 3mph tolerance for factors such as speedo being out, plus even things like how tall or short the driver is makes their view of the speedo slightly different.
The only thing stopping GWR stuff going too quick is ATP which will warble at driver if above 125mph. However I'm led to believe all ot does is warble, it doesn't actually stop you going faster and faster, though I haven't personally put it to the test.
The fact LNER don't have ATP says to me they've likely had a fair few 13xmph runs in past few years, but again, I'm only guessing!
And as for "speed set", do LNER mandate it on azumas? On GWR it is up to the driver. I very rarely use it as to me it leads to a loss of concentration.

 

[Welly]

In the mid 1980s, I once caught a 47 hauled train from Newark to Kings Cross and I had a tight onwards connection at Paddington even when the train was on time. It was 10 minutes down by Peterborough and I was worried so I actually asked the driver if he could give it welly, he said that he cannot promise anything but he'll see what he could do...

Glory be, he did give the loco welly and we arrived on time! Sadly I did not record the speed.

 

[Cowley]

I'm not sure if it was that fast, but I do remember getting a good run behind 50007 'Sir Edward Elgar' from Basingstoke to Woking in December 1989. (I think that was my one and only experience of 50 haulage, which might explain how it stuck in my mind).

Not the kind of run compared to some of the ones listed on here but I was at Exeter st David’s one afternoon around that time and I noticed a 33 (being driven by a local driver that was known to be somewhat enthusiastic ) being hooked onto the front of a class 50 on a Waterloo service.
Curious I bought myself a return to Exeter Central just to take this unusual pair up the 1 in 37 to Central and it remains the most blistering run I’ve ever had up the bank to this day. When we screeched to a halt in Central the driver of the 33 leaned out of the window and flailed to the other driver before getting the right away and tearing off towards Salisbury.
I’d love to have carried on and savoured it.

I was also on a run behind 33002 one evening sometime around 1990/91 and we hit 90 plus mph (I think 94 but I’d have to check) down Honiton Bank. Not bad for a loco that was meant to be a 60 mph restricted departmental machine at the time (even if it wasn’t, 33s only had a nominal 85 mph top speed).

 

[hexagon789]

And as for "speed set", do LNER mandate it on azumas?

The way Heaton worded that bit in his piece suggested that was the case, yes. I.e. - I wouldn't have expected it to be worded in such a way otherwise.

I'll re-read the bit and quote it if I can find it.

 

[43096]

No. A driver can do a consistent 128mph and would probably be fine, as on GWR at least , there is a 3mph tolerance for factors such as speedo being out, plus even things like how tall or short the driver is makes their view of the speedo slightly different.
The only thing stopping GWR stuff going too quick is ATP which will warble at driver if above 125mph. However I'm led to believe all ot does is warble, it doesn't actually stop you going faster and faster, though I haven't personally put it to the test.

I'd be surprised if it didn't intervene at some point. Certainly on HSTs if the warbling went on too long and the driver took no action, the ATP would make a brake application.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd be surprised if it didn't intervene at some point. Certainly on HSTs if the warbling went on too long and the driver took no action, the ATP would make a brake application.

My understanding is -

Less than 3mph overspeed (supervision curve) = no action

3mph overspeed (warning curve) = warble

6mph overspeed (intervention curve) = full service brake application until one of the previous two curves is met.

The issue is the older WSP system does not account for tyre wear and so the actual speeds would vary power car to power car.

This certainly occurs with the standard overspeed cut out - the setting is at 132mph but that figures reduces with tyre wear except on power cars fitted with the newer Knorre Bremse WSP which dies account for tyre wear.

 

[43096]

My understanding is -

Less than 3mph overspeed (supervision curve) = no action

3mph overspeed (warning curve) = warble

6mph overspeed (intervention curve) = full service brake application until one of the previous two curves is met.

The issue is the older WSP system does not account for tyre wear and so the actual speeds would vary power car to power car.

This certainly occurs with the standard overspeed cut out - the setting is at 132mph but that figures reduces with tyre wear except on power cars fitted with the newer Knorre Bremse WSP which dies account for tyre wear.

ATP had/has a separate speed probe on axle 3, doesn’t it? Is it actually wired in to the WSP system?

 

[hexagon789]

ATP had/has a separate speed probe on axle 3, doesn’t it? Is it actually wired in to the WSP system?

There is something that gives reducing speed ceilings on both the overspeed and the ATP that relates to the tyre wear, so I presume the speed probe for the ATP is also used by the WSP or vice-versa. It doesn't affect power cars with the KB WSP mods but I believe almost none of the ex-GWR/FGW power cars had those mods.

I think I need to dig more into it to find the precise reason(s), but it comes up in mention in a few places.

 

[cambsy]

Irish_rail, Even though the Azumas, do not have ATP etc, I dont recall. Any logs of them doing, more than about 127mph, though there, was the case of a TPE 802, hitting about 145mph, very briefly between York and Darlington, which think, was due to the some anomaly, with the ASL, so the driver reported it straight away, when realised what happened, and I think it was used as warning to other drivers, and the driver didnt get the sack etc. I think Azuma drivers, like elsewhere, would get hauled up or sacked, if they regularly do more than about 127mph, which is in line with modern driving regulations etc.