FCC Class 365s/317s/321s weekday stock query

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heart-of-wessex

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Hello all,

I don't know if there's anyone who has diagrams for the FCC 365s/317s/321s, or if any locals have an idea of formations, but if anyone can answer the following questions please, even if it is just one, then it will be appreciated!
It's for a 2012 Weekday Timetable I'm doing for for King's Cross SimSig:

1. The class 365s I believe are usually paired unless it's one to Kings Lynn. I know some split at Cambridge, but a couple in the early morning have a 1 or 2 minute stop at Cambridge so I assume it's solo throughout for these.
Is there many trio sets though? I have seen a trio on YouTube, but I don't know if these would ever run to/from Peterborough?
At a guess I'd say trios are on the Kings Lynn, with 1 set breaking off at Cambridge leaving 2 behind, but I doubt these ever do the stopper service (2Cxx headcode) services?

2. Are 317s normally paired? I know they don't have a lot so I guess there is some solo ones about?

3. As for Class 313s, I assume a majority of these are double sets? I'd imagine just a few 3 car 313 sets wouldn't cope in the peak hour!

4. Does anyone know what the Class 321s do? Are these out all day or do they just work some peak services?

5. I seem to recall seeing it once, but I can't remember 100%, but can a 12 car set fit in Platforms 9-11 at Kings Cross, or do these need to use 1-8?

6. Finally, I know there is (or used to be) a hot spare Class 317 dumped on platform 8 on Saturdays, does this apply on weekdays too?


Again, any help is highly appreciated! I've only ever been on the FCC network on Saturdays on a rail day out, so I don't know what weekdays are like.


Thank you,

James.
 
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NSE

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Ok, the 313's are generally 6 in peak, 3 off peak. Never longer than 6 due to platform constraints, particularly problematic for the Northern City Line.

The 12 car formations of 365's (which have to leave from 1-8) as they are close to IC225s in length, depart at 17:10/17:40/18:10 and run KGX-HIT-SNO-HUN-PBO (I have no Cambridge timetable to hand). The Cambridge splitters are generally 8 car.
My shifts at work have changed so I haven't been down on a Saturday for ages to see if the hot spare still exists.

I believe 317's and 321's are fairly quiet off peak. I know one 321 operates a diagram (or at least did) that puts it on a very slow service arriving/departing Cambridge around midday. 317's and 321's generally stick to single formation off peaks and stay towards the slower services, particularly the Peterborough slows. In the peak they double up, one 321 eight car set operates the 16:22 to Huntingdon and the return fast working. They also operate in 8 car formation and run semi-fast services to places such as Welwyn Garden City, calling at places like Ally Pally, New Barnet, New Southgate, Hatfield and Welwyn GC (the ones that can take 8 cars).

For your own interest, the 20:10 fast is booked 4 car 365. I'm also fairly certain one of the XX:10/40 P'bo fasts is booked 8 car 321.

However, all units can on paper keep to times and all have first class, so all can be used on Cambridge/Peterborough/Royston/Huntingdon/Kings Lynn/Ely services.

Everything is generally single unit off peak.

Hope this helps.
 
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MCR247

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Joining the ukmodernemu yahoo group would answer at least some of your questions and provide further help with what stock works what etc :)
 

D365

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I believe FCC tend to prefer using 365s, then 321s and 317s. During the peaks, 365s tend to work the Cambridge/King's Lynn fasts, with any other units assigned to Peterborough semi-fasts. 12 car trains must depart from the mainline platforms (0-8) as the suburbans (9-11) will only take 8 cars.

I know for certain that the 8:30 at Huntingdon is serviced by an 8 car 321 set, services before are usually 365. 365s have faster acceleration, so I'm curious to know how it works when there are none available for a 365-timed diagram.
 

317666

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On a weekday, as well as the aforementioned off-peak 321 which if I remember correctly works the 12:55 off Cambridge, there are a few single 317s on similar services, I think the 10:55 is one but not 100% sure.

On Saturday mornings, the Cambridge - Kings Cross expresses are 4-car (05:45, 06:45, 07:45, 08:15) until the 08:45 I believe, if not the 09:15 is definitely 8 cars. The 05:45 starts at Ely. The 06:45, 07:45 and 08:45 start at Kings Lynn, and the 08:15 and 09:15 start at Cambridge.
 

trentside

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On a weekday, as well as the aforementioned off-peak 321 which if I remember correctly works the 12:55 off Cambridge, there are a few single 317s on similar services, I think the 10:55 is one but not 100% sure.

If it's the same working I've encountered it runs off 2C11 the 1106 from KGX, arriving at Cambridge at 1227. Return working is the 2C68 1255 from Cambridge, arriving at KGX at 1419. I had 321404 in both directions from Letchworth Garden City to Hitchin back in March.
 

jopsuk

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the 1815 Cambridge-Kings Cross is a single 317 or 321 (I've had both) - on Fridays, a very, very busy service...
There's an evening peak 12-car that I think splits at Letchworth or Royston? There's also some 8-car workings north of Camrbidge
 

philjo

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the 1815 Cambridge-Kings Cross is a single 317 or 321 (I've had both) - on Fridays, a very, very busy service...
There's an evening peak 12-car that I think splits at Letchworth or Royston? There's also some 8-car workings north of Camrbidge

That train splits at Royston - the rear 4 coaches call at Meldreth, Shepreth Foxton & Cambridge. I think it is at 18:14 from Kings Cross?

The 17:23 KGX to Royston is usually 8-car 365 whenever I have used it but it was 8-car 321 last Wednesday.

The Cambridge stoppers calling at Hatfield, WGC, Welwyn North, Knebworth etc in the evening peak are usually 317s with one set being 8-car 321s

16:32 KGX-Cambridge is 8 car 317s, divides at Letchworth (rear unit returns empty via Letchworth sidings to KGX).
16:54 KGX-Cambridge is 4 car 317
17:22 KGX-Cambridge is 8 Car 321, divides at Royston

07:20 LET-KGX is currently 8-car 317s since timetable change last year (used to be 6-car 313 then 8-car 321)

Cambridge stoppers are usually 4 coaches due to the short platforms at Meldreth, Shepreth & Foxton. The semi-fasts can be either 4 or 8 coaches.
The morning up stopper services from Cambridge are now 8-coach 317s with the rear unit out of use until Royston. (they used to couple the units at Royston but the service was usually delayed)
One service is a 4-coach 365 calling all stations to Hitchin then KGX and is usually very full at Letchworth. I think this is the only 4-coach service towards London in the morning peak.
 

jopsuk

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Hello all,

5. I seem to recall seeing it once, but I can't remember 100%, but can a 12 car set fit in Platforms 9-11 at Kings Cross, or do these need to use 1-8?

Pretty sure 9-11 only just fit the eight car trains, with 10/11 being quite a narow island at the outer end.
I'd presume though that as well as 1-8, 12 car trains should fit into 0?
 

hozza94

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You're absolutely spot on! The only time I have been on that service was on the Cambridge Open Day... quite a lot of standing passengers
 

Southern

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0617 PBO - KGX is booked for a 12-car 321, splits on arrival for the 0736/07+40 departures. 0653 and 0714 from PBO are 12-car 365. 0645, 0715 and 0745 from CBG are all 12-car 365. The 1744 from KGX is a 12-car 365 to Cambridge, front 4 continue to KLN.
 

NXEA!

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Can anybody advise if any of the fast Cambridge/Kings Lynn/Peterborough services are booked 317's? Wouldn't mind have a run out on them and enjoy the noise! Thanks in advance. :)
 

Southern

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I believe the following are booked 1or2x317:

1P64 0733 Peterborough - Kings Cross
1R01 1617 Kings Cross - Royston
1C74 1815 Cambridge - Kings Cross
 

SprinterMan

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Slightly off-topic, but do GA treat their 317/5/6/8s as a common pool now all the 379s are there, or do diagrams still have certain sub-types?
Adam :D
 

heart-of-wessex

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Hello all,

Thank you very much for the help, especially with the coach formations on FCC's timetable, I know they do those and for some reason, I forgot to even look at that!!

I've also been directed to the UKModernEMU Yahoo group that has the 2012 diagrams for 365s, 321s and 317s, and a 2011 diagram sheet for 313s, that is most useful, it's worth signing up for that!

I'm also lost of coach formations for 313s though. For instance, on FCC's timetable it states the 08:32 Welwyn - Moorgate (2K15) is 6 cars, thus I guess 2B14 to Hertford (it's next working) is 6 cars too, but of course the timetable only shows inbound morning stuff coach numbers. It's following turn is the 10:33 Hertford - Moorgate (2J35) however according to FCC's TT, this is 3 cars long...so somewhere between 2K15 and 2J35, it's dumped a 313.

This is booked for platform 9, and once it leaves as 2B14, 2J25 arrives 7 minutes later with a sole Class 313, which then runs as 5E44 to Hornsey EMUD. As this is a 3 car 313, is it possible that 2B14 runs as a 3 car 313, leaving one behind to double up with 5E44? I don't know if this happens at Moorgate or not?

Also, I notice there are some other 3 car formations from Welwyn which were 6 cars earlier on. Again, could these join to other ECS turns with a 3 car 313 at Moorgate or do they break off at Welwyn with one heading to the C.S.D at Welwyn until the peak hour?


Thank you very much for the help, it is appreciated :D
 

A-driver

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Nothing splits or joins at moorgate unless a unit has failed. There isn't the time in turnarounds down tree to muck about and they get quite jittery about crashing units together in this platforms. Plus if any thing goes wrong in the split or attachment they then have blocked half the platforms and made life difficult for fitters to fault find and fix.

Units are regularly split and attached at both welwyn and Hertford though aswell as at the letchworth AD&R lines.
 

Southern

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Hello all,

I'm also lost of coach formations for 313s though. For instance, on FCC's timetable it states the 08:32 Welwyn - Moorgate (2K15) is 6 cars, thus I guess 2B14 to Hertford (it's next working) is 6 cars too, but of course the timetable only shows inbound morning stuff coach numbers. It's following turn is the 10:33 Hertford - Moorgate (2J35) however according to FCC's TT, this is 3 cars long...so somewhere between 2K15 and 2J35, it's dumped a 313.

This is booked for platform 9, and once it leaves as 2B14, 2J25 arrives 7 minutes later with a sole Class 313, which then runs as 5E44 to Hornsey EMUD. As this is a 3 car 313, is it possible that 2B14 runs as a 3 car 313, leaving one behind to double up with 5E44? I don't know if this happens at Moorgate or not?

Also, I notice there are some other 3 car formations from Welwyn which were 6 cars earlier on. Again, could these join to other ECS turns with a 3 car 313 at Moorgate or do they break off at Welwyn with one heading to the C.S.D at Welwyn until the peak hour?


Thank you very much for the help, it is appreciated :D

If does, or did, leave a portion at Hertford for the 1053 to Moorgate. A quick look at either Timetables 2 or OTT seems to suggest that this still takes place.

Stoppers detach/attach at Welwyn, with a mixture of the following:

Service arrives, one unit into the CS and one back to Moorgate.
ECS into the CS
ECS to P1 via Reversing Sidings to form two separate services back to Moorgate.

While the games are on, it looks like 313's are attaching/detaching less to provide extra capacity. It's certainly needed if the number of services having FC declassified is anything to go by.
 
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Aictos

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If does, or did, leave a portion at Hertford for the 1053 to Moorgate. A quick look at either Timetables 2 or OTT seems to suggest that this still takes place.

Stoppers detach/attach at Welwyn, with a mixture of the following:

Service arrives, one unit into the CS and one back to Moorgate.
ECS into the CS
ECS to P1 via Reversing Sidings to form two separate services back to Moorgate.

While the games are on, it looks like 313's are attaching/detaching less to provide extra capacity. It's certainly needed if the number of services having FC declassified is anything to go by.

I've been at Hertford this week and there's a notice in the platform office stating that NO splits are to take place and NO trains are going ECS into the yard but rather being used to form services.
 

heart-of-wessex

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Thank you once again guys!

I've been sent a better Class 313 diagram sheet effective from Dec 2010, but still basically works the same for 2012, with a couple of differences.

As for detaching at Hertford, yes this does happen as is in the diagram sheet, but I see in the WTT that there some ECS turns and diagrams are not effective from the end of July to mid August, so these are extra capacity for the Olympics by the look of things, so is probably why there is a notice at Hertford North.
 

317 forever

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For when I go to Cambridge to ride the Busway, I hope to ride a class 317 to Cambridge, Huntingdon or Peterborough. I could if necessary catch one to Stevenage and change onto a 365 to Cambridge.
 

Tom C

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As a GN controller perhaps I can help.

365's have full route availability with the exception of Finsbury Park to Moorgate. They are used on ALL Kings Lynn services, the majority of 1C/1P services to Peterborough/Cambridge, several 2P/2C slower services (FPK, PBR, HAT, WGC, then all stations), Peak hour 1R/2R/ services to Royston/Letchworth plus a 2Y from Welwyn to Kings Cross in the evening peak with limited stops. 365's are unlikely to work stoppers around the Hertford Branch or stoppers to Welwyn due to issues with the driver looking back and if they do they should only have limited stops so this is very rare.

317's have full route availability except Drayton Park (1 x 317 only) or Finsbury Park (2 x 317) and Moorgate. They are unoffically banned from Cambridge to Kings Lynn as the Fen user groups complain that they unsuitable. Even if they were used it would be very rare as many of the 1T diagrams split and join at CBG which would obviously require another 317. They tend to stick on 2P/2C services during the off peak however odd appearances are made on the faster trains. During the peaks they also work 1R/2R services to/from Royston/Letchworth, 1Y from Welwyn to Kings Cross. At weekends they are often used on stopper trains in 4 car formation and the last train via Hertford North on Mondays to Fridays (01:36 KGX-LET) is formed of 4 x 317.

321's are not currently permitted north of Ely and the normal NCL ban and being a small fleet work odd 2P/2C services plus the odd Royston/Letchworth peak hour service. They tend to have very little work at weekends.

313's are signed as far as St Neots and Foxton plus the NCL. In reality this means the furthest they will go is Biggleswade and Royston however there would have to be a very, very major problem for that to happen although there used to be a regular Royston diagram. They obviously work all the slower services to Welwyn, Hertford and Letchworth plus the Gordon Hill peak hour services.

Hope that helps
 
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