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Feet on seats situation gone to court summons

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silly sally

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Hi,

Has anyone ever been to court over having their feet on the seats of merseyrail? This happened back in March and I had my foot on the metal, unknowingly sat next to the sign too (I know very silly but i was so tired and unaware of my surroundings) then two enforcement officers said they had it on camera and issued me a receipt.

Now my concern is 1) i wasn’t issued a fine at that point so i assumed it was an official caution.

2) i gave false information (yes that was silly but honestly i panicked and really thought it was a caution)

3) i received a single justice procedure notice in december, no fine or anything and it’s gone past 21 days to appeal it.

4) i’m concerned the transcript of situation? the officer didn’t ask me for a ticket yet it says i failed to produce one.

silly sally ):
 
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Spandau

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Merseyrail were made to look silly when they took a student to court re feet on seats and Chester Magistrates dismissed the case.

Not that I condone putting dirty shoes on seats, but the byelaws people can be somewhat over zealous.
 

Kilopylae

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I feel like point 2 is more likely to land you in trouble than having put your feet on the seat. How did 3 happen, i.e. how did the notice reach you, if you gave a false address?
 

Mojo

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Did you actually have a ticket that was valid for the journey at the time?

3) i received a single justice procedure notice in december, no fine or anything and it’s gone past 21 days to appeal it.
The Single Justice Procedure Notice is the commencement of proceedings, you will not receive a fine until the process has been completed.

Formally, you have three options; either respond to the notice and advise that you are guilty and happy for the case to be heard under the Single Justice Procedure, in which case you will receive a letter advising what the punishment will be; respond to the notice and advise that you are guilty but would like to have the case heard in court; or advise that you are not guilty and would like the case to be heard in court.
 
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Vespa

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This is a link Merseyrail bylaws which may give you some idea of how to deal with it.


The seat and seat surrounds are considered one and the same for prosecution.

The forum have several threads on this particular subject, please use the search function, this may help you.

I personally don't approve of feet on seats or seat surrounds because you are transferring pavement dirt/muck/spit and worse to the seats then we sit on it or touch it.
 

silly sally

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Merseyrail were made to look silly when they took a student to court re feet on seats and Chester Magistrates dismissed the case.

Not that I condone putting dirty shoes on seats, but the byelaws people can be somewhat over zealous.
how recent was this by the way?

I feel like point 2 is more likely to land you in trouble than having put your feet on the seat. How did 3 happen, i.e. how did the notice reach you, if you gave a false address?
technically it’s an old address i lived at & i randomly checked with reception if i had any letters/parcels

Did you actually have a ticket that was valid for the journey at the time?


The Single Justice Procedure Notice is the commencement of proceedings, you will not receive a fine until the process has been completed.

Formally, you have three options; either respond to the notice and advise that you are guilty and happy for the case to be heard under the Single Justice Procedure, in which case you will receive a letter advising what the punishment will be; respond to the notice and advise that you are guilty but would like to have the case heard in court; or advise that you are not guilty and would like the case to be heard in court.
yes i had a valid ticket at the time of travel.
do you an idea what the punishment might be? have you heard any cases getting this far?
 
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RunawayTrain

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Merseyrail were made to look silly when they took a student to court re feet on seats and Chester Magistrates dismissed the case.

Not that I condone putting dirty shoes on seats, but the byelaws people can be somewhat over zealous.

Although what is the point of having byelaws if they aren't going to be enforced when necessary?

However, the way the OP describes the situation does seem a very trivial event. She describes an inadvertent placing of seats on the seat metal (not the fabric material) of the seat, whilst tired (sleeping?). However the officers took such an exception that they actually reported the matter instead of a quiet word. To me this doesn't add up and I wonder if there is more to this? Had the officers already asked once? Was the OP a repeat seat on seats offender? Why else were the officers so strict?
 

Mojo

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Although what is the point of having byelaws if they aren't going to be enforced when necessary?

However, the way the OP describes the situation does seem a very trivial event. She describes an inadvertent placing of seats on the seat metal (not the fabric material) of the seat, whilst tired (sleeping?). However the officers took such an exception that they actually reported the matter instead of a quiet word. To me this doesn't add up and I wonder if there is more to this? Had the officers already asked once? Was the OP a repeat seat on seats offender? Why else were the officers so strict?
It adds up perfectly if you read the signs and other notices on board Merseyrail trains, as well as previous threads and news stories about prosecutions. They are very strict on this matter and do not normally give a second chance.
 

heenan73

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"Why else were the officers so strict?" - They have the occasional 'clampdown' like enforcement teams everywhere. In London you see a team hit the Overground, or 20 officers surrounding one bus. It's an event 'pour encouragement les autres'.

As for the feet on seats, it's a Mersey Thing.
True Story (sorry about the stereotyping but ...)
I was once at Euston and the destinations board was dead. Like everyone else, I found a harassed member of staff and said "Liverpool?". "Platform [whatever]. You'll know it's the right train because they'll all have their feet on the seats". Now there's an anti-Scouser, I thought. But he was right. Not all of them, but many. More than I'd ever seen on a train before or since. To be fair, they had Mk II stock with plenty of bay seating.
 

Watershed

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The seat and seat surrounds are considered one and the same for prosecution.
Merseyrail are certainly very heavy handed on this, but despite having had the chance to make feet-on-seats an explicit crime in their own Byelaws, they chose not to do so.

Therefore a prosecution could only be brought under Byelaw 6.8, which is identical to the [National Rail] Byelaws:
No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway

This gives them a reasonably high bar to prove a crime has been committed - and it is by no means certain that mere feet-on-seats will automatically constitute an offence. Giving a false name and address could constitute a separate crime, of course.

I would advise the OP to speak to a criminal defence solicitor ASAP - even if just for an initial consultation (which will often be free or low cost), to determine which courses of action are possible and advisable.

The Law Society's website has a search tool to find local solicitors by area of practice.
 

Fawkes Cat

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3) i received a single justice procedure notice in december, no fine or anything and it’s gone past 21 days to appeal it.

Just to pick up on this point: as @Mojo explained in post #4, the single justice procedure notice (SJPN) is not notification of a punishment, but a requirement that you tell the court how you want the charge to be heard. So just because that notice has been issued, it doesn't mean that things are finalised. But they will be moving towards being finalised pretty quickly - and if you don't engage with the process, I would expect that they will be finalised on the assumptions that (a) you are guilty and (b) that there's no reason why you shouldn't face the heaviest fine.

So my suggestion would be to urgently get in touch with the court: there's probably a phone number on the SJPN, so ring that to find out what happens if you are late replying. If there isn't a phone number, there must be an address (or how else are you going to write back to them?). Try putting this into the 'Find a cort or tribunal' finder at https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/search/address: if you go into the court details then you should find a phone number.
 

Vespa

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Merseyrail are certainly very heavy handed on this, but despite having had the chance to make feet-on-seats an explicit crime in their own Byelaws, they chose not to do so.

Therefore a prosecution could only be brought under Byelaw 6.8, which is identical to the [National Rail] Byelaws:


This gives them a reasonably high bar to prove a crime has been committed - and it is by no means certain that mere feet-on-seats will automatically constitute an offence. Giving a false name and address could constitute a separate crime, of course.

I would advise the OP to speak to a criminal defence solicitor ASAP - even if just for an initial consultation (which will often be free or low cost), to determine which courses of action are possible and advisable.

The Law Society's website has a search tool to find local solicitors by area of practice.
Byelaw 6(8) does cover a lot of things, they are keen on "feet on seats" because it's considered anti social and dirty, in fact any antisocial behavior would be considered "interfering with convenience and comfort of passengers"

I wouldn't be very happy if somebody left dog poo on a seat from their shoes as neither would anybody.

Giving false details is more serious.

The OP best option is to ask for an out of court settlement, but before doing that she can consult a solicitor, there is several cases of previous prosecutions they can look over, if the staff camera was not working, then it falls to the Op's word against the Staff's., some were successful in getting off the charge or out of court settlement.

This article is dated September 2018 but still relevant as the law hasn't changed, I have noticed enforcement officers are regularly patrolling Merseyrail sometimes with a BTP changing trains frequently.

 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure I recall reading that they wanted to be able to give out FPNs for this sort of thing instead of pursuing through the Courts, which would also result in a lower penalty more in line with a Penalty Fare, but that there is no legal framework for this to be done.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Merseyrail were made to look silly when they took a student to court re feet on seats and Chester Magistrates dismissed the case.

Not that I condone putting dirty shoes on seats, but the byelaws people can be somewhat over zealous.
how recent was this by the way?
Picking up on this, I've pinched the following from https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3030284/fine-for-having-your-feet-up in February 2011

300 more face trial for feet on train seats

Jenny Booth

div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited { color: rgb(0, 102, 204); } Three hundred more passengers are due to be prosecuted for putting their feet on the seats on Merseyrail trains, despite a ruling by magistrates yesterday against the train company in a similar case.
Kathleen Jennings, 19, was given an absolute discharge by Chester magistrates after she admitted putting her flip-flops up on the seat in front of her.
Lawyers branded the case a “ludicrous” waste of time and money, as a tearful Ms Jennings revealed that she had feared that a criminal conviction could wreck her prospects of becoming a maths teacher.
Today, however, Merseyrail confirmed that it was pressing ahead with 300 more prosecutions against passengers who dirtied the seats, as part of its campaign to vigorously enforce railway by-laws against "unacceptable behaviour". Joan Nice, a spokeswoman, said that the company did not accept that it had taken a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
"We decided to enforce the by-laws vigorously because of complaints from customers," said Ms Nice.
"We have a further 600 cases pending, and out of those possibly about 300 are for feet on the seats, although we cannot give an accurate figure until they have actually come to court.
"We have already prosecuted nearly 250 people for smoking, drinking and other forms of unacceptable behaviour since February and in every case the magistrates have found in our favour."
In a statement, the company said that it had had a lot of support from passengers since it started its campaign against smoking, drinking and dirtying the seats in February.
"We do not regard our campaign as draconian," said the statement. "We are responding to the demands of passengers who don’t want to sit on a seat covered in mud or dirt and the campaign has received widespread messages of support from passengers throughout the country.
"To date we have prosecuted some 240 people in the Magistrates Courts for putting their feet on the seats and other byelaw infringements such as smoking. All have either pleaded guilty or been found guilty by the Magistrates."
The train company has equipped its staff with with CCTV “head cams” which record high quality digital pictures and sound to gather evidence for possible prosecution of offenders. Prosecutions are based on the existing railway by-laws which apply across the UK under the section which covers “unacceptable behaviour” (By-law 6), after a specific protocol was agreed with Liverpool Magistrates Court.
In the case of Miss Jennings, a Cub Scout leader who also works with disabled children, although she removed her flip-flops from the seat as an inspector arrived, the company chose to pursue the matter through the courts.
Christine Abrams, the chairwoman of the magistrates’ bench in Chester, gave Miss Jennings an absolute discharge, meaning that no criminal offence will be recorded and she will suffer no penalty. There were no costs awarded.
Ms Abrams said: “The bench is united in feeling that while this may have been contrary to a by-law, Merseyrail should have a less draconian method for dealing with matters of this nature.” She advocated a more commonsense approach in the future. “A fixed penalty system may be more appropriate.”
As the bench delivered its decision, the teenager’s parents, Tony and Susan, broke into a round of applause. Outside court, Miss Jennings said: “I’m really relieved. I thought the worst. I thought they were not going to give me a discharge. It’s been very distressing, to be honest, getting a solicitor and going through all this, which I’ve never done before. It’s been a bit difficult.”
Earlier Kevin Jones, representing Merseyrail, told the court that, as a train inspector approached Miss Jennings, she took her flip-flops off the seat. He admitted there was no verbal warning but said that a notice in front of her warned passengers of a £100 penalty for resting their feet on seats.
Irwin Bamforth, for the defence, said: “I have to say that the general consensus is, this is ludicrous. All it would have taken was for the gentleman to say, ‘Please take your feet down.
“She took her feet down and that should have been the end of it. She was taken off the train extremely distressed. Her whole family have become involved and they are very distressed. She is a young lady with no previous convictions who has co-operated fully.
“To be punishing a promising young student who could end up with a criminal conviction is crazy.”

(and MSE seem to have pinched it from http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2393944.ece)

There's a couple of points to pull out from this:
1) This was a magistrate's court case, so it doesn't set a binding precedent - that is, another court at the same level trying a case with the same facts would not have to interpret the law in the same way.
2) This case was heard at Chester, but Merseyrail have agreed a 'specific protocol' with Liverpool Magistrates Court. So it sounds as if cases heard at Liverpool might be treated more severely.
 

Mojo

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I'm sure I recall reading that they wanted to be able to give out FPNs for this sort of thing instead of pursuing through the Courts, which would also result in a lower penalty more in line with a Penalty Fare, but that there is no legal framework for this to be done.
I thought Railway Safety Accreditation Scheme conveys this power (moot point in any case as Merseyrail have not chosen to be part of this scheme), but strangely enough it doesn't, even though it does allow for Fixed Penalty Notices to be issued for things like stonethrowing and trespass. I suppose they could make up their own out of court settlements framed as a penalty notice like Northern Trains do/did for ticket irregularities.

In any case, I think we have missed the main point here, that the OP has received a notice for not having a ticket, and not for having feet on seats, even though he did have a ticket. To the OP - I think you are best off sending a copy of the ticket, or bank statement if you don't have it, to Merseyrail, and asking them what is going on.
 

RunawayTrain

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It adds up perfectly if you read the signs and other notices on board Merseyrail trains, as well as previous threads and news stories about prosecutions. They are very strict on this matter and do not normally give a second chance.

"Why else were the officers so strict?" - They have the occasional 'clampdown' like enforcement teams everywhere. In London you see a team hit the Overground, or 20 officers surrounding one bus. It's an event 'pour encouragement les autres'.

As for the feet on seats, it's a Mersey Thing.
True Story (sorry about the stereotyping but ...)
I was once at Euston and the destinations board was dead. Like everyone else, I found a harassed member of staff and said "Liverpool?". "Platform [whatever]. You'll know it's the right train because they'll all have their feet on the seats". Now there's an anti-Scouser, I thought. But he was right. Not all of them, but many. More than I'd ever seen on a train before or since. To be fair, they had Mk II stock with plenty of bay seating.

Interesting context here. I guess if it is a serious problem, then they get serious about enforcement.
 

SargeNpton

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I thought Railway Safety Accreditation Scheme conveys this power (moot point in any case as Merseyrail have not chosen to be part of this scheme), but strangely enough it doesn't, even though it does allow for Fixed Penalty Notices to be issued for things like stonethrowing and trespass. I suppose they could make up their own out of court settlements framed as a penalty notice like Northern Trains do/did for ticket irregularities.

In any case, I think we have missed the main point here, that the OP has received a notice for not having a ticket, and not for having feet on seats, even though he did have a ticket. To the OP - I think you are best off sending a copy of the ticket, or bank statement if you don't have it, to Merseyrail, and asking them what is going on.
Being done for not having a ticket is never mentioned in her posts. It's all about feet on seats.
 

Mojo

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Being done for not having a ticket is never mentioned in her posts. It's all about feet on seats.
It's in the first post, point 4. It says they were stopped for having feet on the seats but the transcript [they received, along with the prosecution paperwork] says they failed to produce a ticket.
 

SargeNpton

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It's in the first post, point 4. It says they were stopped for having feet on the seats but the transcript [they received, along with the prosecution paperwork] says they failed to produce a ticket.
Apologies.
 

WesternLancer

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how recent was this by the way?
This case I think - 2007 by looks of it - may have been others more recently I guess - this came up when I did a google search (also in Telegraph - paywall - Manchester Eve News as well I think) - make of it what you wil as I doubt the paper's reporter was in court - so it may have come down to the attitude of the Magistrate and perhaps the degree of remorse the person exhibited on the day. I have no idea really of course.

 

Mcr Warrior

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How best can the OP prove that a valid ticket was held at the time of travel?

Might be a bit difficult to prove some time after the event.

The OP may (or may not) have thought they were only being prosecuted for the "feet on seats" offence.

If the enforcement officers didn't ask to see travel tickets at the time of the alleged other offence, it would perhaps seem to be quite easy (for whatever reason, negligently or otherwise) for this additional charge to be subsequently added on to the prosecution's documentation after the event.

Do the enforcement officers routinely video/film record encounters with alleged offenders to provide additional evidence for their case, and if so, would the OP be permitted to view a copy of same?

Might help clarify matters.
 

WesternLancer

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I think to deal with this you need to

a) try to get some legal advice - are you a student? - you may be able to get help via your students union or as suggested above free legal short consultation
b) tell the court and Merseyrail your new (correct address) address - if you used an old address you can tell them you moved - and perhaps avoid saying when unless they ask you in which case honesty is the best policy...
I would just send a letter saying "Please note the address you hold for me at X is no longer valid and I now live at Y" and insert any case reference numbers - post it to them with luck (you will not then get into any conversations about it....
c) Important to challenge the transcript that claim you did not have a valid ticket (because it sets a context that makes you look like fare dodger / feet on seats etc etc) so might make a magistrate less pre-disposed to sympathy if it gets to that.

Not sure how you challenge it but maybe a letter of apols to Merseyrail, and a request that this point is corrected be included in the letter - copy it to the court? (but if you get some legal advice etc obv ask them about that first before acting on my suggestion)

so
maybe use the same approach that is advised on many thread here about getting out of court settlements on fare evasion:

ie
  • write to train company (correct address at the same time maybe if not done before)
  • apologize that you had feet on seats
  • say you understand that cleaning costs the railways money
  • explain that you understand this is not good for other passengers, it was an error on your part and you have learned from your mistake and will not do it again
  • offer to pay a reasonable penalty to conclude the matter without the need for court action
  • Also, and perhaps up front in letter - make it clear that you had a valid ticket and that the statement that you did not must be an error made on the part of the staff concerned, then move on to the issue about feet on seats.
Can you proove you had a ticket still? (eg on your bank statement on date maybe?) - did the staff actually ask for your ticket when they caught you with feet on seats? if they did mention that in your letter.

Post a draft letter here if you want comments

Others will post to suggest if this is a good idea at all - hopefully!
 

silly sally

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I think to deal with this you need to

a) try to get some legal advice - are you a student? - you may be able to get help via your students union or as suggested above free legal short consultation
b) tell the court and Merseyrail your new (correct address) address - if you used an old address you can tell them you moved - and perhaps avoid saying when unless they ask you in which case honesty is the best policy...
I would just send a letter saying "Please note the address you hold for me at X is no longer valid and I now live at Y" and insert any case reference numbers - post it to them with luck (you will not then get into any conversations about it....
c) Important to challenge the transcript that claim you did not have a valid ticket (because it sets a context that makes you look like fare dodger / feet on seats etc etc) so might make a magistrate less pre-disposed to sympathy if it gets to that.

Not sure how you challenge it but maybe a letter of apols to Merseyrail, and a request that this point is corrected be included in the letter - copy it to the court? (but if you get some legal advice etc obv ask them about that first before acting on my suggestion)

so
maybe use the same approach that is advised on many thread here about getting out of court settlements on fare evasion:

ie
  • write to train company (correct address at the same time maybe if not done before)
  • apologize that you had feet on seats
  • say you understand that cleaning costs the railways money
  • explain that you understand this is not good for other passengers, it was an error on your part and you have learned from your mistake and will not do it again
  • offer to pay a reasonable penalty to conclude the matter without the need for court action
  • Also, and perhaps up front in letter - make it clear that you had a valid ticket and that the statement that you did not must be an error made on the part of the staff concerned, then move on to the issue about feet on seats.
Can you proove you had a ticket still? (eg on your bank statement on date maybe?) - did the staff actually ask for your ticket when they caught you with feet on seats? if they did mention that in your letter.

Post a draft letter here if you want comments

Others will post to suggest if this is a good idea at all - hopefully!
Hello @WesternLancer,
Thank you for your input.
a) yes i am a student and moved within the time it took for me to receive said SJPN. i will check with my student union for legal advice.
b) okay i will look to send a letter about the change of address but i’m really concerned they might follow up on how i got the letter, if technically i don’t reside there.
c) i do have evidence on a bank statement for a ticket purchase. the officers didn’t ask me for my ticket & made it seem like i was getting a formal warning, not fined. did you mean i write the letter to merseyrail & ask them to cc the court sorry ? but yes i will be consulting with solicitor over it first.
 

clagmonster

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3) i received a single justice procedure notice in december, no fine or anything and it’s gone past 21 days to appeal it.

4) i’m concerned the transcript of situation? the officer didn’t ask me for a ticket yet it says i failed to produce one.

silly sally ):
Is the ticketing offence the only charge listed on the Single Justice Procedure Notice? When was the SJPN dated?
Did you indeed hold a ticket? If so was it valid for your journey? Do you still have the ticket? How was the ticket paid for?

If you provide answers to the above questions, we will be able to provide more specific assistance to you.

I would advise that you set up a Royal Mail redirection service so that any post from your old address is sent to your new address. There will be a charge for this, but it will ensure that you receive any communications promptly and that you are able to deal with them in good time.

I would also advise that you write to both the court and Merseyrail advising them of your change of address.
 

WesternLancer

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Is the ticketing offence the only charge listed on the Single Justice Procedure Notice? When was the SJPN dated?
Did you indeed hold a ticket? If so was it valid for your journey? Do you still have the ticket? How was the ticket paid for?

If you provide answers to the above questions, we will be able to provide more specific assistance to you.

I would advise that you set up a Royal Mail redirection service so that any post from your old address is sent to your new address. There will be a charge for this, but it will ensure that you receive any communications promptly and that you are able to deal with them in good time.

I would also advise that you write to both the court and Merseyrail advising them of your change of address.
I had assumed that the court issue was not for a ticketing offence at all - it was due to feet on seats (inference from thread title) but now you mention it the OP does not make this clear - maybe @silly sally can clarify.

Totally agree with Royal Mail re-direction advice - good point.

Hello @WesternLancer,
Thank you for your input.
a) yes i am a student and moved within the time it took for me to receive said SJPN. i will check with my student union for legal advice.
b) okay i will look to send a letter about the change of address but i’m really concerned they might follow up on how i got the letter, if technically i don’t reside there.
c) i do have evidence on a bank statement for a ticket purchase. the officers didn’t ask me for my ticket & made it seem like i was getting a formal warning, not fined. did you mean i write the letter to merseyrail & ask them to cc the court sorry ? but yes i will be consulting with solicitor over it first.
Hi also - see other subsequent post #24

I guessed you may have moved form eg Hall of Residence when you said you had been to reception and thus may be a student. Your SU may have details of solicitors they recommend that give eg free initial advice - or they may advise you in house via their SU welfare team if they have one. This is what happens at my local university I think. That was my thinking.

b) I doubt they will follow it up - but in my view perfectly reasonable action for you to go back to a former address to check for mail esp if it has a staffed type reception area where this would be facilitated. But I would also now consider the Royal Mail redirection as if you miss vital post on this sent to former address it could compound problems. The redirections are cheap (see Royal Mail website) - in theory you could rely on the redirection and then not tell railway / court you have moved, but this would be 'economical with the truth' IMHO

c) No you should CC anything you write to Merseyrail to the court (you can not rely on Merseyrail to send it to the court for you - place the court ref on the copy you send to the court if it is a different reference, send stuff registered post too and keep proof of posting - even if you e-mail them you may need to print a copy and post it too - I know this sounds over the top but plenty of cases on these forum threads of problems with missing stuff leading to escalated difficulties / bigger fines / costs etc)

BUT - please now clarify given post up thread - what is the court action for? A ticketing offence or for placing your feet on seats (or both)?

good luck
 
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silly sally

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Is the ticketing offence the only charge listed on the Single Justice Procedure Notice? When was the SJPN dated?
Did you indeed hold a ticket? If so was it valid for your journey? Do you still have the ticket? How was the ticket paid for?

If you provide answers to the above questions, we will be able to provide more specific assistance to you.

I would advise that you set up a Royal Mail redirection service so that any post from your old address is sent to your new address. There will be a charge for this, but it will ensure that you receive any communications promptly and that you are able to deal with them in good time.

I would also advise that you write to both the court and Merseyrail advising them of your change of address.
@clagmonster hello,

the only charged offence listed is the feet on seat structure; the included transcript just highlighted i was asked for valid ticket & is blank (i have a bank statement confirmation of purchase)

SJPN was dated first week of december & i don’t have the ticket anymore.

thank you for highlighting the royal mail redirection.

I had assumed that the court issue was not for a ticketing offence at all - it was due to feet on seats (inference from thread title) but now you mention it the OP does not make this clear - maybe @silly sally can clarify.

Totally agree with Royal Mail re-direction advice - good point.


Hi also - see other subsequent post #24

I guessed you may have moved form eg Hall of Residence when you said you had been to reception and thus may be a student. Your SU may have details of solicitors they recommend that give eg free initial advice - or they may advise you in house via their SU welfare team if they have one. This is what happens at my local university I think. That was my thinking.

b) I doubt they will follow it up - but in my view perfectly reasonable action for you to go back to a former address to check for mail esp if it has a staffed type reception area where this would be facilitated. But I would also now consider the Royal Mail redirection as if you miss vital post on this sent to former address it could compound problems. The redirections are cheap (see Royal Mail website) - in theory you could rely on the redirection and then not tell railway / court you have moved, but this would be 'economical with the truth' IMHO

c) No you should CC anything you write to Merseyrail to the court (you can not rely on Merseyrail to send it to the court for you - place the court ref on the copy you send to the court if it is a different reference, send stuff registered post too and keep proof of posting - even if you e-mail them you may need to print a copy and post it too - I know this sounds over the top but plenty of cases on these forum threads of problems with missing stuff leading to escalated difficulties / bigger fines / costs etc)

BUT - please now clarify given post up thread - what is the court action for? A ticketing offence or for placing your feet on seats (or both)?

good luck
hi @WesternLancer,

yes to clarify the offence is feet on structure but i’m concerned why the transcript would highlight missing ticket when it wasn’t ask for. thank you for highlighting the SU welfare, i will do that now.

b) i will consider the royal mail redirection as this might be the best option.

thank you again
 
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clagmonster

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@clagmonster hello,

the only charged offence listed is the feet on seat structure; the included transcript just highlighted i was asked for valid ticket & is blank (i have a bank statement confirmation of purchase)

SJPN was dated first week of december & i don’t have the ticket anymore.
Thanks, please can you confirm that the date of travel was in March. If so, I think it is worth asking, perhaps through a solicitor, when the charges were submitted by Merseyrail to the court (apologies for lack of technical wording here, I am not a lawyer). The reason I am hinting this way is that there are 6 months for the information to be laid to the court, although there may be a delay from here to the SJPN being posted. Over 2 months seems a little too long for such a delay however, even taking COVID into account. There were a couple of cases a while back in which Merseyrail were out of time to lay the information.

Given the time that has elapsed, I would suggest that you act quickly here.
 

WesternLancer

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@clagmonster hello,

the only charged offence listed is the feet on seat structure; the included transcript just highlighted i was asked for valid ticket & is blank (i have a bank statement confirmation of purchase)

SJPN was dated first week of december & i don’t have the ticket anymore.

thank you for highlighting the royal mail redirection.


hi @WesternLancer,

yes to clarify the offence is feet on structure but i’m concerned why the transcript would highlight missing ticket when it wasn’t ask for. thank you for highlighting the SU welfare, i will do that now.

b) i will consider the royal mail redirection as this might be the best option.

thank you again
Thanks - - yes, even tho you are not being taken to task about a ticket, I think it is important that you make it clear not only did you have a ticket, but that the staff did not ask to see your ticket - yet you are being accused of not having a ticket (since this alters the burden of 'behaviour and attitude' from one that makes you look bad on 2 fronts, to one that makes them look slack in terms of their paperwork, by you placing this on the record etc)

However, I assume you are not disputing that you had your feet on the seat (or at least part of the 'seat structure' or whatever they call it) and thus your objective is to:
a) not let this go to court
b) resolve it out of court - eg payment of a penalty perhaps
c) if you are lucky have it dropped altogether, but that might have to be at a court and that might not be the outcome you get

I don't know, but others may be able to post, what level of fine a court usually levies for these feet on seats case. Given Merseyrail are pretty proactive about it there must be plenty of examples on record locally.
 

MotCO

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4,653
the only charged offence listed is the feet on seat structure; the included transcript just highlighted i was asked for valid ticket & is blank (i have a bank statement confirmation of purchase)

yet you are being accused of not having a ticket (since this alters the burden of 'behaviour and attitude' from one that makes you look bad on 2 fronts, to one that makes them look slack in terms of their paperwork, by you placing this on the record etc)

The fact that the transcript regarding the valid ticket was blank suggests to me that they had not asked about this and is not the subject of their concern, rather than a ticket wasn't produced. Given that the charges do not mention fare evasion would seem to bear this out, so I am not sure that a Magistrate would infer anything to make 'you look bad on two fronts'.
 

silly sally

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chester
Thanks, please can you confirm that the date of travel was in March. If so, I think it is worth asking, perhaps through a solicitor, when the charges were submitted by Merseyrail to the court (apologies for lack of technical wording here, I am not a lawyer). The reason I am hinting this way is that there are 6 months for the information to be laid to the court, although there may be a delay from here to the SJPN being posted. Over 2 months seems a little too long for such a delay however, even taking COVID into account. There were a couple of cases a while back in which Merseyrail were out of time to lay the information.

Given the time that has elapsed, I would suggest that you act quickly here.
@clagmonster
yes the date was back in march & SJPN post first week of December.
silly question but i’m currently a student unemployed & not sure how i go about contacting a solicitor asides student union at my university for advise.

Thanks - - yes, even tho you are not being taken to task about a ticket, I think it is important that you make it clear not only did you have a ticket, but that the staff did not ask to see your ticket - yet you are being accused of not having a ticket (since this alters the burden of 'behaviour and attitude' from one that makes you look bad on 2 fronts, to one that makes them look slack in terms of their paperwork, by you placing this on the record etc)

However, I assume you are not disputing that you had your feet on the seat (or at least part of the 'seat structure' or whatever they call it) and thus your objective is to:
a) not let this go to court
b) resolve it out of court - eg payment of a penalty perhaps
c) if you are lucky have it dropped altogether, but that might have to be at a court and that might not be the outcome you get

I don't know, but others may be able to post, what level of fine a court usually levies for these feet on seats case. Given Merseyrail are pretty proactive about it there must be plenty of examples on record locally.
@WesternLancer
i thought the same regarding the ticket part; it felt well escalated in a short time as there isn’t even a record or a choice for me to pay the initial penalty fare of £75.
but yes i’m not disputing my feet on the seat surroundings; it was caught on body cam. could the letter i send prevent it getting to court even though the 21 appeal deadline is gone?
 
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