FGW 180s to Scotland!?

[bloogrape]

i told you they was sending them up. the 180 will be replaced by the 170!

 

[jonb]

Hmm increased running costs sounds like First to me!

 

[Sprog]

Its not gonna heppen.........................

 

[Techniquest]

It WON'T happen. All this has been discussed throughout many forums, many groups, why do we need to discuss something that has been officially declared as not happening?

Show me evidence in the form of a press release saying they're going, details of when the first 180 will go to Scotland for high-speed test runs and ghost running on Glasgow to Edinburgh services, when Haymarket are expected to receive 180s for training their crew on, when the FSR catering staff can expect to get training on the buffet cars, when the TMs can expect their training on them...

There's NO rock-solid evidence to say they will go there. All we've got is rumour, discussion and a Chinese whisper from an alleged FSR employee who thinks he knows what is happening. When there is evidence to fall back on, I might believe it. And no, I won't accept images clearly taken at Reading and made to fit in Photoshop into a shot of Edinburgh.

 

[joy54.gen]

Show me some rock hard evidence to show there not going then FGWFan?

 

[southy39]

do they all come off lease this summer ???
if they do i cant see First ust movin them away...
plus if i remember is it laira depot is suposed to be getting DMU facilites built.. perhaps this is just for the 165/166 units but could be a sign for the 180's.

anyway... you never know... maybe if they do leave FGW one could probably go to Hull Trains... i mean they are part of First and they are looking to increase cappacity...
this is just my opinion... not based on any evidence.

 

[AlexS]

Laira has had DMU facilities for many, many years

 

[southy39]

Laira has had DMU facilities for many, many years

well i dont have my magazines to hand but i know its one of the further west Depots are having DMU facilities added...

 

[AlexS]

Could be St Phillips Marsh, which is Bristol's HST depot.

 

[Andrew]

If First are still planning to move some Turbos to Bristol, I doubt the 180s will be going. Oxford is likely to get more HSTs, but I can't see there being too many more Cotswold Line HSTs. And I can't see the mainline Slough stops being retained well when all of them are HSTs.

How many extra HSTs do First have? Would they even be able to support the Cardiff half-hourly, and the Cheltenhams services on the sets they have?

EDIT: It's St. Philip's Marsh which is going to get DMU facilities.

 

[Sprog]

Yes, it is definatly the 'marsh' which is getting more facilities. I have been told this by several parties. The reason for this is that when First gain control in April, Arriva are kicking them out of canton, meaning, apart from Exeter and occasionally Bristol Barton Hill, there is nowhere for heavy maintenace, stabling etc. SPM is getting enhanced facilites and more covered capacitiy aswell as fuel points etc, etc.

Also, think about it, Arriva and Wessex are competing franshises. At Canton, Arriva are contracted to do all the work for Wessex. Now, in that enviroment, who do you think is going to get priority of things and the 'best' stanadard of work. Arriva or Wessex. Hmm, seems pretty obvious to me.

 

[yorkie]

well a 90mph turbo can actually run to a HST 125mph diagram. As my freind who cannot be named for obvious reasons who works at FGW said the 165s can work to a 125 diagram because of the quick acceleration and braking compared to a HST.

On a stopper to Exeter via the Berks and Hants (which doesn't exceed 110mph top line speed west of Reading and with frequent station stops), yes maybe it could (but you'd need a lot of units to match the capacity of an HST).

On a fast service, no way.

 

[Z12XE]

There's NO rock-solid evidence to say they will go there. All we've got is rumour, discussion and a Chinese whisper from an alleged FSR employee who thinks he knows what is happening.

And your rock solid evidence that they are staying is....?

I heard this from a FirstGroup shareholder, and until I've heard the opposite from someone at the TOCs/DfT I'll believe him.

 

[Techniquest]

I've not the rock-solid evidence to say they're staying, but no-one has the rock-solid evidence that they're going either. Words from a stakeholder is not enough. When I see the evidence from First themselves, via official means, I'll believe it.

Don't forget, the fast lines are to have bans on <125mph stock, if they haven't already. What are they going to run these Turbos on, the slow lines? Great, delay and slow down services...

Passengers love the 180s, they're a vast improvement on the service provision given by the 165s and 166s. 166202 was seen on Saturday on the 1523 to Oxford at Hereford, but that's down to engineering posessions.

So let's assume First get rid of all 14 180s to Scotland, Hull Trains or some other area. First do NOT have enough HSTs to cover all the services operated by 180s currently, nor do they have enough Turbos to cover them. Well, maybe with the tighest diagramming of any unit ever, but that's not sensible planning. Besides, Hanborough, as has already been mentioned by Angus (I believe that's his name), does not have grandfather rights allowing the HSTs to call at Hanborough. 180s can only do it due to having SDO and being shorter.

Let's also assume the 14 180s all go to Scotland. Upon what route could you seriously put them on? Glasgow to Edinburgh? Nah, too slow. Glasgow to Newcastle via Dumfries? Nope, slower still. Glasgow or Edinburgh to Inverness/Aberdeen? Potentially, but these routes already have the 170s from HT to serve these routes. I know of no reasonable route to use 125mph stock on. That's as prepostourus as putting 180s on Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour services.

In any case, before I go on forever, my point is there is no logic in getting rid of the 180s. They were designed for use on the GWML, not in Scotland. Not on the ECML, not anywhere else. Paddington - Reading - Didcot Parkway is already packed out enough, to put Turbos on the 180 services wouldn't be sensible. They simply can't cope the same way the 180s can.

 

[yorkie]

Let's also assume the 14 180s all go to Scotland. Upon what route could you seriously put them on? Glasgow to Edinburgh? Nah, too slow. Glasgow to Newcastle via Dumfries? Nope, slower still. Glasgow or Edinburgh to Inverness/Aberdeen? Potentially, but these routes already have the 170s from HT to serve these routes. I know of no reasonable route to use 125mph stock on. That's as prepostourus as putting 180s on Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour services.

Stranger things have happened.

Like tilting Voyagers used on routes where there is no tilt facility. These tilting voyagers consume significantly more fuel due to weighing a lot more and have considerably higher maintenance costs, for absolutely zero benefit.

Then there's 125mph stock on MML, limited to 110mph.

Glasgow QS - Edinburgh (via Falkirk High) is a reasonably fast route, I would guess 90mph most of the way (possibly 100? But I don't remember seeing any 100 signs).

 

[Techniquest]

Stranger than a potential 180 on a Cardiff to Portsmouth? Or a potential 180 on a Glasgow to Edinburgh? Nah.

If you recall, HSTs were introduced to the MML due to their superior accleration and so forth. Indeed, journey times were significantly reduced on the MML with the HSTs. Passenger satisfaction no doubt increased greatly too. It's the same as putting a HST on a Reading to Penzance service (such a time was when the Waterloo HSTs were on), limited to a maximum of 100 - 110mph, but the services were still improved overall at the time of introduction of the HST.

I guess the same could happen with the 180s, in that they could improve conditions, journey times, passenger satisfaction and numbers where they go, but I don't know about that. If they do go to Scotland, it won't take much re-painting to make them fit in.

Still, bring the evidence on. That's my final say for the time being on the matter. Further reading of this topic by myself will discontinue from the moment I've spell-checked the post. Anyone wishing to discuss this view further should contact me via PM or MSN, then I may discuss it with them, altering my point of view as appropriate.

Thank you for your time, I shall leave you with the above for your perusal.

 

[AlexS]

HST's were introduced to the MML because BR Midland wanted to withdraw the Peaks.

 

[Jim]

That's as prepostourus as putting 180s on Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour services.

There has been some talk of that

 

[voyagerdude220]

I spotted in one of the first postings that 143s in the SW would be replaced by another kind of train..

PLEASE, PLEASE JUST REPLACE THE 143S!! When I do a Preston to Somserset journey, every month or two, the Voyager from Preston to Bristol is really good, but then the blimmin 143..

Please can i arrange a mass cull of 143s at Bristol Barton Hill depot (or anywhere for that matter!) sometime this weekend?

Even if it's just an ordinary 150 etc that I could get from Bristol Temple M, into Somerset, I'd be very happy..

I like nearly all trains, but the 142/3/4's.. I just hate :x

 

[Jim]

Please can i arrange a mass cull of 143s at Bristol Barton Hill depot (or anywhere for that matter!) sometime this weekend?

Well, given enough time, they will do it thereselves (look in Crewe Works...)

 

[voyagerdude220]

Please can i arrange a mass cull of 143s at Bristol Barton Hill depot (or anywhere for that matter!) sometime this weekend?

Well, given enough time, they will do it thereselves (look in Crewe Works...)

Good

 

[Mojo]

Hmm....

In the summer, you can give me a 143 over a 158, mainly due to the lack of units with working AirCon.

TBH, I didn't mind the other week when I did Bristol - Cheltenham via Gloucester, although the unit was baking!

 

[ChrisM]

That's as prepostourus as putting 180s on Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour services.

There has been some talk of that

Heard this the before from several staff members that work on that route with class 158s going on Westbury to Reading local services.

 

[Sprog]

I might have to take back my earlier comment.

There is much talk on the First Group rail gen of the 180s moving.

Hmmmm, ill wait and see...

 

[Techniquest]

Same. I've not heard anything recently, but the news of 180s potentially going to Scotland was lurking around since October and November 2005.

I still can't see it happen, a lot of it will be rumours and Chinese whispers if you ask me. When I see that official word and movements recorded, I'll see where my opinion stands.