FGW Franchise

[PHILIPE]

The Bristol 165/166 fleet would be fully utilised across routes below, so it looks as though Taunton -Cardiff will be 158s from Exeter, which would leave Exmouth - Paignton with several 2-car units to allow sufficient maintenance pool at Exeter.

Bristol - Gloucester / Great Malvern 3 units *
Bristol Parkway - Weston super Mare 2 units *
Severn Beach Line 2 units *
Bristol - Weymouth 3 units *
Bristol - Westbury / Southampton 3 units *
Swindon - Melksham 1 unit
Cardiff - Portsmouth 8 units * + 8 units
Golden Valley IEP
3 units * peak hour services / Brighton
* 3-car units
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Indeed speculation probably makes up 95% of the whole forum, but there is some fact shared by those with insider knowledge.

I'd just like to speculate how much extra capacity is really going to happen in the far west as a result of this 'great news for passengers' direct award.

My early conclusion is that there will be an improvement but only a modest one.

Agree Insider Knowledge here and very useful.

 

[Ingleborough]

The fleet at SPM will be either 108 or 110 vehicles. That came from a senior source in Fleet Engineering when we were briefed on Friday. It is open to change as the plans for the Bristol Metro were not allowed to be part of the discussion and the DfT has become more receptive to new build. It could be an EMU / DMU mix for the Metro. It simply is not known and there is an election to get past. Ed Balls is more pro-road than rail!
Only 50% of the budget for the large new DMU (but EMU capable) depot has been agreed between the DfT and Network Rail for Exeter Riverside Yard. Initially a servicing shed with lots of siding space will be built.
Cardiff - Portsmouth WILL be 5 car 16x. Revenue protection, catering etc. That's for others to sort.
PZ will expand, Laira will likely contract as will SPM in terms of manpower if the AT300s are approved and all HSTs ditched. Landore will close as a GWR depot, but discussions continue with WAG over it being a DMU base after Canton becomes an EMU depot. Maliphant will only have cleaning and basic servicing jobs. The SW AT300s have an option built in for an additional 150 vehicles and it's thought this is to provide non driving cars for the 5 car units if demand dictates lengthening plus some extra units.
All 150/2s and 158s will go to Exeter with PZ and Laira taking on more DMU routine servicing.

The 150/0 situation has not yet been resolved and 150209, formed of two 57 cars could be made PRM compliant with one car being fitted with a new toilet module.


The basic plan is in place and will follow what has been outlined above. The 150/1s and 153s, with 143s are likely to go off lease, but do not be surprised to see changes regarding 150/1s and 153s because I don't see enough 16x coming to SPM to cover everything. The 16x and 150001 are shorter range than all the other DMUs and the maintenance regime is very different. Adding 33% more Gatwick services and still needing 16x on Greenford, Marlow and other beyond the wires services has cut the numbers.

Other little snippets There will be a permanent addition, a fifth class 57.

First 165s, two 3 cars arrive at SPM May 2016. They will be used on Severn Beach intensively and for training depot staff. First 180 goes off lease before the end of this year.

 

[Xavi]

The fleet at SPM will be either 108 or 110 vehicles. That came from a senior source in Fleet Engineering when we were briefed on Friday. It is open to change as the plans for the Bristol Metro were not allowed to be part of the discussion and the DfT has become more receptive to new build. It could be an EMU / DMU mix for the Metro. It simply is not known and there is an election to get past. Ed Balls is more pro-road than rail!
Only 50% of the budget for the large new DMU (but EMU capable) depot has been agreed between the DfT and Network Rail for Exeter Riverside Yard. Initially a servicing shed with lots of siding space will be built.
Cardiff - Portsmouth WILL be 5 car 16x. Revenue protection, catering etc. That's for others to sort.
PZ will expand, Laira will likely contract as will SPM in terms of manpower if the AT300s are approved and all HSTs ditched. Landore will close as a GWR depot, but discussions continue with WAG over it being a DMU base after Canton becomes an EMU depot. Maliphant will only have cleaning and basic servicing jobs. The SW AT300s have an option built in for an additional 150 vehicles and it's thought this is to provide non driving cars for the 5 car units if demand dictates lengthening plus some extra units.
All 150/2s and 158s will go to Exeter with PZ and Laira taking on more DMU routine servicing.

The 150/0 situation has not yet been resolved and 150209, formed of two 57 cars could be made PRM compliant with one car being fitted with a new toilet module.


The basic plan is in place and will follow what has been outlined above. The 150/1s and 153s, with 143s are likely to go off lease, but do not be surprised to see changes regarding 150/1s and 153s because I don't see enough 16x coming to SPM to cover everything. The 16x and 150001 are shorter range than all the other DMUs and the maintenance regime is very different. Adding 33% more Gatwick services and still needing 16x on Greenford, Marlow and other beyond the wires services has cut the numbers.

Other little snippets There will be a permanent addition, a fifth class 57.

First 165s, two 3 cars arrive at SPM May 2016. They will be used on Severn Beach intensively and for training depot staff. First 180 goes off lease before the end of this year.

We could end up with a 2006 situation revisted. Stock going off lease but still required to cater for growth. Exeter could be very interesting, with Newcourt opening soon, Cranbrook to follow and Marsh Barton approved, the growth curve will accelerate.

 

[TheWalrus]

Newquay is 2 Car and StIves 4 Car during the Summer. Looe is 2 Car High Summer. Gunnislake 2 Car throughout and StIves 2 Car outside High Summer..

Do they need that much capacity?

 

[irish_rail]

Lets hope they take up that option to extend the 5 car IEPs then!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do they need that much capacity?

Cant talk for the others, but Gunnislake most certainly does, and is very busy in the peak. A single carriage would not suffice, and there is serious overcrowding in the peak at present if a 153 is used vice 150.

 

[Ingleborough]

Do they need that much capacity?

Yes, even in winter places like Falmouth see full and standing with two sets of 2 car units shuttling back and forth. I went to Looe a few weeks ago and the 153 was rammed solid, as for Gunnislake.....I'd love to see 3 car minimum per service.

 

[fgwrich]

We could end up with a 2006 situation revisted. Stock going off lease but still required to cater for growth. Exeter could be very interesting, with Newcourt opening soon, Cranbrook to follow and Marsh Barton approved, the growth curve will accelerate.

That's the situation of which I'm rather concerned about seeing again. Just leaving the FGW Franchise with just the 158s & 150/2s by 2017 doesn't look like much room for growth on all the branches or much of an inclusion of the eventual Tavistock services.

But I reckon 150209 will be reformed back as a /2 again with the RVAR treatment allowing it to become 'normal' again.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Don't forget that this is a short franchise so the growth on existing services to 2019 would have to be pretty spectacular to outstrip the number of units that are to remain on the franchise.

I understand the DfT wanted to take even more units out but nobody wanted another 2006 situation, especially just before an election!

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Don't forget that this is a short franchise so the growth on existing services to 2019 would have to be pretty spectacular to outstrip the number of units that are to remain on the franchise.

I understand the DfT wanted to take even more units out but nobody wanted another 2006 situation, especially just before an election!

So can we look forward to seeing 3-car 165s replacing 2-car 150s on the Malvern/Worcester to Bristol jobs at sometime then?

 

[evergreenadam]

Yes, even in winter places like Falmouth see full and standing with two sets of 2 car units shuttling back and forth. I went to Looe a few weeks ago and the 153 was rammed solid, as for Gunnislake.....I'd love to see 3 car minimum per service.

In which case should Looe not be two car throughout the year?

 

[387star]

Is it confirmed the Great Malvern to Brighton trains will start from Bristol in the new timetable?

Though timekeeping has been improving this will presumably make things a little better... I guess the present arrangement is in effect a merging of two separate services

Interesting Brighton only gets a direct Cardiff service on a Sunday today worked this morning by 150001

I wonder if a SWT 159 comes back for the Brighton services in the summer terribly popular with Brighton commuters ... I cant remember if the pen mill services are definitely going ahead and when but that will make it harder to release a 159 presumably

 

[PHILIPE]

Is it confirmed the Great Malvern to Brighton trains will start from Bristol in the new timetable?

Though timekeeping has been improving this will presumably make things a little better... I guess the present arrangement is in effect a merging of two separate services

Interesting Brighton only gets a direct Cardiff service on a Sunday today worked this morning by 150001

I wonder if a SWT 159 comes back for the Brighton services in the summer terribly popular with Brighton commuters ... I cant remember if the pen mill services are definitely going ahead and when but that will make it harder to release a 159 presumably

Pen Mill from December. It has been well documented on the Forum that SWT are covering these by using "layover" times to cover these. The link is:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=112532

 

[fgwrich]

One thing has just occurred to me, There was for a while talk of SWT losing a handful of 158s - one to East Midlands to work the extended Matlock services, and the FGW sublease to go permanent. Has anything been confirmed regarding SWT losing any 158s to FGW?

 

[387star]

Regarding 153s becoming avaliable EMT would do well to snap these up

 

[PHILIPE]

Regarding 153s becoming avaliable EMT would do well to snap these up

Depends on DFT

 

[Xavi]

Don't forget that this is a short franchise so the growth on existing services to 2019 would have to be pretty spectacular to outstrip the number of units that are to remain on the franchise.

I understand the DfT wanted to take even more units out but nobody wanted another 2006 situation, especially just before an election!

The problem is once units are gone they are gone. Northern won't send them back and resurrect the Pacers! Franchise length is irrelevant. Where does stock for Bristol Metro come from a year or so after this short franchise?

 

[jimm]

The problem is once units are gone they are gone. Northern won't send them back and resurrect the Pacers! Franchise length is irrelevant. Where does stock for Bristol Metro come from a year or so after this short franchise?

Perhaps an order for new stock, in conjunction with electrification of the projected Bristol Metro lines and the XC route from Birmingham? Allowing redeployment of Turbos even further west, which would help address the capacity issues in that area noted above.

 

[RPI]

Yes, even in winter places like Falmouth see full and standing with two sets of 2 car units shuttling back and forth. I went to Looe a few weeks ago and the 153 was rammed solid, as for Gunnislake.....I'd love to see 3 car minimum per service.

I work these services every day and can assure you that a 153 is more than adequate for the Newquay and Looe branches all the time except for Easter and High summer, the Gunnislake branch needs no more than a 2 car 150 any time, the 2x 150/0's would be best placed for the two Falmouth diagrams, that seems to be the line with the most growth and is pretty well at comfortable capacity now but is far from being overcrowded other than when something special is on. St Ives easily manages with a 153 in Winter but could do with a 5 car in summer. The real overcrowding issues in the west is on the Barnstaple and the Exmouth to Paignton and the Cornish mainline.

 

[Xavi]

Perhaps an order for new stock, in conjunction with electrification of the projected Bristol Metro lines and the XC route from Birmingham? Allowing redeployment of Turbos even further west, which would help address the capacity issues in that area noted above.

That would work nicely. Let's hope the capacity is adequate in the interim period.

 

[jimm]

That would work nicely. Let's hope the capacity is adequate in the interim period.

Network Rail's future electrification strategy report is supposed to be imminent, so there may be some clues there.

 

[TheWalrus]

I work these services every day and can assure you that a 153 is more than adequate for the Newquay and Looe branches all the time except for Easter and High summer, the Gunnislake branch needs no more than a 2 car 150 any time, the 2x 150/0's would be best placed for the two Falmouth diagrams, that seems to be the line with the most growth and is pretty well at comfortable capacity now but is far from being overcrowded other than when something special is on. St Ives easily manages with a 153 in Winter but could do with a 5 car in summer. The real overcrowding issues in the west is on the Barnstaple and the Exmouth to Paignton and the Cornish mainline.

Would it make sense to retain some 153s with accessible toilets for these lines with some spare non-upgraded 153s to attach to the compliant 153s during the summer and busy periods?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Would it make sense to retain some 153s with accessible toilets for these lines with some spare non-upgraded 153s to attach to the compliant 153s during the summer and busy periods?

Go one upset sombody by saying which line should get a 153 (I refuse to call it a train!)

 

[Ingleborough]

I work these services every day and can assure you that a 153 is more than adequate for the Newquay and Looe branches all the time except for Easter and High summer, the Gunnislake branch needs no more than a 2 car 150 any time, the 2x 150/0's would be best placed for the two Falmouth diagrams, that seems to be the line with the most growth and is pretty well at comfortable capacity now but is far from being overcrowded other than when something special is on. St Ives easily manages with a 153 in Winter but could do with a 5 car in summer. The real overcrowding issues in the west is on the Barnstaple and the Exmouth to Paignton and the Cornish mainline.

Then why do the train crew regularly send complaints about overcrowding? Several of us went West in November and spent 4 days looking at loadings in Cornwall and Devon across a range of services at various times of day. Our report mirrored what we were being told by Operations staff. More stock was needed.

 

[TheWalrus]

Go one upset sombody by saying which line should get a 153 (I refuse to call it a train!)

All Cornish Branches except Falmouth :P

 

[Parallel]

I work these services every day and can assure you that a 153 is more than adequate for the Newquay and Looe branches all the time except for Easter and High summer, the Gunnislake branch needs no more than a 2 car 150 any time, the 2x 150/0's would be best placed for the two Falmouth diagrams, that seems to be the line with the most growth and is pretty well at comfortable capacity now but is far from being overcrowded other than when something special is on. St Ives easily manages with a 153 in Winter but could do with a 5 car in summer. The real overcrowding issues in the west is on the Barnstaple and the Exmouth to Paignton and the Cornish mainline.

Although I can't comment on the Cornish branches, I do agree with you on the Devon metro lines. With Exmouth trains, some major work would be needed to increase frequency/capacity and I hope doubling this line in the future is a prospect. If not, an extra platform at Exmouth so as one train arrives just as the other leaves would possibly be able to get frequency to every 20 minutes. From experience 2x143 or 1x150 isn't enough at peak times, and I'd imagine very busy during summer too.

The Barnstaple line just feels like you've gone back in time - it really feels like it's been left behind. I think it's clear how much the rail link means to Barnstaple, with a very well looked after station, complete with a ticket office, cafe and a train dispatcher. It's interesting to note that traffic on the line has generally increased, yet from most intermediate stations, has decreased (apart from Umberleigh and possibly Copplestone) which must be partly down to the poor/infrequent service (IMO) some of these smaller communities get. Provide a service and people will use it and all that . Not saying that Newton St Cyres or Chapelton need a half hourly service or anything, but at least one every two hours depending on the station or hourly at the peaks (by request) may help with growth from these smaller stations.

I think the Exeter - Paignton stoppers would have less constraints for service improvements. Most (if not all?) of the platforms are a decent length - It just all comes down to stock availability, which the Devon metro desperately needs!

EDIT: 455driver informs me that trains have a very short turnaround time at Exmouth and therefore an extra platform at Exmouth isn't going to save a great deal of time.

 

[thelongestroad]

First 165s, two 3 cars arrive at SPM May 2016. They will be used on Severn Beach intensively and for training depot staff. First 180 goes off lease before the end of this year.

With or without guard door controls/and or intermediate door controls?

 

[fairysdad]

The Barnstaple line just feels like you've gone back in time - it really feels like it's been left behind. I think it's clear how much the rail link means to Barnstaple, with a very well looked after station, complete with a ticket office, cafe and a train dispatcher. It's interesting to note that traffic on the line has generally increased, yet from most intermediate stations, has decreased (apart from Umberleigh and possibly Copplestone) which must be partly down to the poor/infrequent service (IMO) some of these smaller communities get. Provide a service and people will use it and all that . Not saying that Newton St Cyres or Chapelton need a half hourly service or anything, but at least one every two hours depending on the station or hourly at the peaks (by request) may help with growth from these smaller stations.

I've been taking this line fairly often recently, and I can see how it has improved slightly over the years since when I used to take it years ago. I've generally been getting it at Umberleigh (as it's the closest station to where I'm currently living, and I can park there for free!) and being able to know that I can get an Exeter train at ten to each hour (pretty much) is useful, and the last time I took it it was rather busy - I caught the 7.51 from Umberleigh and had to sit on one of the pull-down seats by the doors (was a 150) - although from the guard's comments it seems fairly erratic as he said he was on the same service the day before and it was much emptier.

I've also been surprised at how many people are using the intermediate stations, usually Morchard Road and Copplestone seem to be almost guaranteed stops, often Yeoford as well.

My reason for commenting here though is in reply to the comments about Newton St Cyres and Chapelton - I can understand Chapleton not getting a 'decent' service given it is pretty much in the middle of nowhere with no dwellings nearby (except a couple of farms and the station house itself and the RGB yard which was probably in days gone by the reason for the station in the first place), but Newton St Cyres I cannot as there are houses quite close to the station, and it's not that far from the village itself (< 1 mile if Google Maps is accurate). That said, even if it had a regular rail service, I'd imagine that the bus service from the village into Exeter would probably be a better shout for anybody wanting that journey as it'd not take that much longer (including the walk to the station) and would take you into the city centre better than the railway can...

 

[anthony263]

With or without guard door controls/and or intermediate door controls?

I think they are being fitted as this issue has already been raised

 

[fgwrich]

Could a solution for regular stops at Newton St Cyres be found if a Okehampton service goes ahead? Ok, so they would likely to be less frequent than the hourly Barnstaple services but it would allow that stop to Retain a service into and out of Exeter, while keeping Newton as a request stop on some of the less busier Barnstaples and removing it from the faster services. Just a thought.

 

[Parallel]

I've been taking this line fairly often recently, and I can see how it has improved slightly over the years since when I used to take it years ago. I've generally been getting it at Umberleigh (as it's the closest station to where I'm currently living, and I can park there for free!) and being able to know that I can get an Exeter train at ten to each hour (pretty much) is useful, and the last time I took it it was rather busy - I caught the 7.51 from Umberleigh and had to sit on one of the pull-down seats by the doors (was a 150) - although from the guard's comments it seems fairly erratic as he said he was on the same service the day before and it was much emptier.

I've also been surprised at how many people are using the intermediate stations, usually Morchard Road and Copplestone seem to be almost guaranteed stops, often Yeoford as well.

My reason for commenting here though is in reply to the comments about Newton St Cyres and Chapelton - I can understand Chapleton not getting a 'decent' service given it is pretty much in the middle of nowhere with no dwellings nearby (except a couple of farms and the station house itself and the RGB yard which was probably in days gone by the reason for the station in the first place), but Newton St Cyres I cannot as there are houses quite close to the station, and it's not that far from the village itself (< 1 mile if Google Maps is accurate). That said, even if it had a regular rail service, I'd imagine that the bus service from the village into Exeter would probably be a better shout for anybody wanting that journey as it'd not take that much longer (including the walk to the station) and would take you into the city centre better than the railway can...

This was an interesting read from a regular Tarka line user, against my notes. I made two journeys on a Friday, recently (one to Barnstaple, and one from Barnstaple an hour later - both single 143s too, lucky me ) and both portions were scheduled to call at the same stations. I noted that neither train stopped at Copplestone (0/2), one stopped at Morchard Road (1/2) and two at Yeoford (2/2) and Umberleigh (2/2). It doesn't surprise me that Copplestone would usually have people alighting/joining with the new housing estate alongside, and I did only make two journeys, quite close together, which I can't generalise too much from so thanks for this.

Regarding Newton St Cyres, although the bus link may be popular, it would be good if it is included in a few of the future services to/from/via Okehampton. If it is kept as a request stop then it's not as if the train is going to lose much time if no-one wants to alight or board. This works fairly well on lines like Thornford/Yetminster/Chetnole on the Heart of Wessex line, and the Cambrian coast line whereby every request stop is included in the timetable for trains (bar the Barmouth terminator obviously), but they rarely stop at every station and the timetable factors this in. I understand that the traffic levels for Newton St Cyres, Portsmouth Arms, Lapford, Kings Nympton and Chapelton might be on the light side, and hourly request calls would probably be too much for some (2 hourly would be more appropriate), yet if people don't want to board/leave there, it's not as if the train would lose time through having to stop.

I do however think capacity improvements are needed on this line first and foremost.