FGW Loco-Hauled Services

[Doomotron]

I was reading the Wikipedia article for the Class 57 and it mentioned...

In 2000, Porterbrook placed an order for a prototype passenger locomotive fitted with electric train heating. This locomotive, 57601, was leased to First Great Western in June 2001, First Great Western were looking for a replacement for its elderly Class 47 locomotives. It hauled Mark 2 stock on day services from London Paddington to Plymouth and Penzance—until these ceased in September 2002—and on the Night Riviera sleeper service.

How true is it that First Great Western ran these London to Plymouth/Penzance services with Mark 2 coaches?

 

[matt]

Very true. They ran before the class 180s. An example here https://www.flickr.com/photos/mark-...Y-qT9Cpw-cDwYt-2jzcTrq-qRYNqP-2ja48BT-2jgND3i

 

[Cowley]

I was reading the Wikipedia article for the Class 57 and it mentioned...

How true is it that First Great Western ran these London to Plymouth/Penzance services with Mark 2 coaches?

Very true indeed. Those services and the Virgin Cross Country ones that finished not long after were kind of the end of a long era down this way.

 

[Iskra]

I was reading the Wikipedia article for the Class 57 and it mentioned...

How true is it that First Great Western ran these London to Plymouth/Penzance services with Mark 2 coaches?

It's true as far as I'm aware. They also ran with 47's;

More interesting times...

 

[JonathanH]

How true is it that First Great Western ran these London to Plymouth/Penzance services with Mark 2 coaches?

It is true - the 47s were used on 'day trains'

 

[Cowley]

It's true as far as I'm aware. They also ran with 47's;

More interesting times...

It was all 47/8s apart from ‘Purple Ronnie’ (the nickname given to 57601) from what I remember.
I must admit that they looked pretty smart too with a matching rake of coaches.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Some of those "fag packet" Mk2s later saw use with First North Western hauled by FM Rail class 31s. St. Annes to Greenbank was an oddball service they ran on.

 

[JonathanH]

Some of those "fag packet" Mk2s later saw use with First North Western hauled by FM Rail class 31s. St. Annes to Greenbank was an oddball service they ran on.

...and on the Fife Circle in the EWS / DB Cargo days.

 

[warwickshire]

Some of those "fag packet" Mk2s later saw use with First North Western hauled by FM Rail class 31s. St. Annes to Greenbank was an oddball service they ran on.

Yes that also happened in the early days off abeillo northern around 2004. After franchise changes took place. At the time.

 

[Iskra]

It was all 47/8s apart from ‘Purple Ronnie’ (the nickname given to 57601) from what I remember.
I must admit that they looked pretty smart too with a matching rake of coaches.

Yes, I liked the fag packet livery, pretty classy.

57601 also looked surprisingly smart in purple too.

 

[43096]

Very true. They ran before the class 180s. An example here https://www.flickr.com/photos/mark-...Y-qT9Cpw-cDwYt-2jzcTrq-qRYNqP-2ja48BT-2jgND3i

The daytime services were 47/57 hauled because of late delivery of the 180s from Alstom. FGW took the decision to use HSTs on the services the 180s would have been used on and back fill with Mark 2 sets. It didn't go down very well in the South West as I recall!

Yes, I liked the fag packet livery, pretty classy.

Seriously? It was hideous.

 

[Iskra]

The daytime services were 47/57 hauled because of late delivery of the 180s from Alstom. FGW took the decision to use HSTs on the services the 180s would have been used on and back fill with Mark 2 sets. It didn't go down very well in the South West as I recall!


Seriously? It was hideous.

I like it. I also like 67's that appeared about the same time which are also unpopular. I was 12 at the time and that's when I really got into spotting, so I think it's more about nostalgia than aesthetic appeal.

 

[Doomotron]

Did the trains have a trolley service?

 

[43096]

Did the trains have a trolley service?

Buffet car provided. From memory they used converted Mark 2Ds.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Yes that also happened in the early days off abeillo northern around 2004. After franchise changes took place. At the time.

The daytime services were 47/57 hauled because of late delivery of the 180s from Alstom. FGW took the decision to use HSTs on the services the 180s would have been used on and back fill with Mark 2 sets. It didn't go down very well in the South West as I recall!

That makes twice that those mk2s were replaced by 180s. Once for FGW and a second time by Northern.

 

[ge-gn]

How comparable to the HSTs were these services timing wise?

 

[LowLevel]

Those Mk2s had a reasonable amount spent on them by Great Western Trains including having new seats fitted. There is one in the NRM. They also went on the Birmingham/Manchester to Holyhead services for a number of years with EWS 47/7s after the 37s and mk1/2 fleet were withdrawn but 175s continued to prove troublesome. They ended up being more common on service trains than charter rakes which were more regularly ex Virgin and Anglia mk2s though a few did end up with EWS (I remember riding in a declassified first class vehicle when Grand Central were using them with 67s on York to London shuttles before their HSTs became available).

 

[43096]

Those Mk2s had a reasonable amount spent on them by Great Western Trains including having new seats fitted. There is one in the NRM. They also went on the Birmingham/Manchester to Holyhead services for a number of years with EWS 47/7s after the 37s and mk1/2 fleet were withdrawn but 175s continued to prove troublesome. They ended up being more common on service trains than charter rakes which were more regularly ex Virgin and Anglia mk2s though a few did end up with EWS (I remember riding in a declassified first class vehicle when Grand Central were using them with 67s on York to London shuttles before their HSTs became available).

One of the BSOs was in the WCRC set that was used on the Windermere services.

 

[Doomotron]

Those Mk2s had a reasonable amount spent on them by Great Western Trains including having new seats fitted.

Were the seats IC70s like the HSTs, or were they a different design not used on Mark 2s previously?

 

[D2007wsm]

I can remember going on one of these from Cardiff when FGW were using loco hauled MK2s on a Taunton to Cardiff diagram.

The interior matched the FGW HST fag packet interior, with the same panelling, moquette, carpets etc.

This was years ago mind, I seem to recall the coach I travelled in being a BSO with a disabled toilet. This carriage was maroon whilst the other 3 were BR blue grey livery. My mind may just be playing tricks on me.

i know the MK2s which were used on the Cardiff - Paignton diagram was ex Virgin Cross Country.

 

[LowLevel]

British Railway Mk.II Coach Interior by rlkitterman on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

That's what they were (picture linked to shows the interior of a former FM Rail and Great Western Trains Mk2 standard class carriage in the NRM, York).

 

[Doomotron]

British Railway Mk.II Coach Interior by rlkitterman on DeviantArt

www.deviantart.com

That's what they were (picture linked to shows the interior of a former FM Rail and Great Western Trains Mk2 standard class carriage in the NRM, York).

Are those the same seats used in Class 166s (among others) in first class?

 

[hexagon789]

I was reading the Wikipedia article for the Class 57 and it mentioned...

How true is it that First Great Western ran these London to Plymouth/Penzance services with Mark 2 coaches?

Booked sets July 2001:

OC81 9481 5631 6203 6202 5669 6722 3232
OC82 9488 5632 5740 5657 5744 6723 3255
OC83 9480 5710 6221 6213 6206 6724 3261
OC84 9494 6200 6207 5636 6226 6720 3241

Sample formations including loco:
29/05/01
57601, 9493, 6202, 5740, 5679, 6722, 3255

25/09/01
47709, 3232, 6721, 5631, 6203, 5700, 5710, 9492
57601, 3255, 6720, 6212, 5679, 6221, 6200, 9494

01/02/03
47811, 3255, 6721, 5737, 5740, 5631, 5669, 5632, 9490, 47815

Buffet car provided. From memory they used converted Mark 2Ds.

Mk2E FO(T) iirc possibly other types too

How comparable to the HSTs were these services timing wise?

They were seven coaches so brakeforce permitted the full 95mph capability of the 47/57s to be used.

This was years ago mind, I seem to recall the coach I travelled in being a BSO with a disabled toilet.

Correct, they converted some Mk2D BSO to BSOD and plated the gangways at the van end.

 

[route101]

Interesting, have seen pictures of these, never seen a MK2 buffet, was it small?

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting, have seen pictures of these, never seen a MK2 buffet, was it small?

Two window bays - one for the counter and one for the store area / equipment etc - much like the Cross Country RFBs in the 12xx series and the Sleeper BUOs in the 67xx series.

Picture of 6724 here http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=5956 - notable are that the seats at first class spacing don't align with the spacing of the windows.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’m almost certain there were also a couple of very decrepid Mark 1 RBKs in faded Intercity Swallow livery, presumably released from Anglia IC services. Does anyone remember how they were deployed? I’ve seen a YT video of a GWT day service passing through Dawlish around 2000ish with one of these vehicles but I haven’t found anything specific about their history - presumably the last two Mark 1 catering vehicles (outside of EMUs) by quite a big margin.

Edit - here‘s a photo on Flickr, presumably before the refresh of the Mk2 fleet but well into the FGW ‘fag packet’ era - interestingly this is a Mark 1 RMB which is well beyond its time.

A Pair of Early Birds

Class 47/4 no.47811 and no. 47816 pass the campers on Dawlish Warren beach with the 5A32 0400 Laira to Exeter ECS on the 11th August 1999

www.flickr.com

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting, have seen pictures of these, never seen a MK2 buffet, was it small?

Depends on the type, the FO(T) literally had a trolley bay and a pantry inserted in one of the toilet spaces. The RMBT were irigunally similar but later had the catering provision increased to take up one toilet space plus four seating bays (two windows), I believe they had microwave ovens and a hot water boiler fitted or similar.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Depends on the type, the FO(T) literally had a trolley bay and a pantry inserted in one of the toilet spaces. The RMBT were irigunally similar but later had the catering provision increased to take up one toilet space plus four seating bays (two windows), I believe they had microwave ovens and a hot water boiler fitted or similar.

The RMBT were done at the turn of the 1990s when the XC fleet was being reorganised and Mk1 vehicles phased out wherever possible. There were 30 of them I believe, officially allocated to Polmadie but of course they went all over the country in the standard 7-coach loco sets. IC GW clearly obtained a handful for the loco hauled IC rakes and I’m sure a couple ended up in Anglia IC sets to get rid of the last few Mk1 catering cars as there weren’t enough spare Mk3 buffets to cover all sets.

 

[hexagon789]

The RMBT were done at the turn of the 1990s when the XC fleet was being reorganised and Mk1 vehicles phased out wherever possible. There were 30 of them I believe, officially allocated to Polmadie but of course they went all over the country in the standard 7-coach loco sets. IC GW clearly obtained a handful for the loco hauled IC rakes and I’m sure a couple ended up in Anglia IC sets to get rid of the last few Mk1 catering cars as there weren’t enough spare Mk3 buffets to cover all sets.

I think we're talking about different vehicles, I'm talking about the Mk2D RMBT converted from Mk2D TSOT by extending the catering area rather than the Mk2F RFB converted from Mk2F FO and used on XC and certain Anglia Mk2 sets. Anglia did have at least one Mk2E FO(T) but afaik they had no Mk2D RMBT.

 

[43096]

Booked sets July 2001:

OC81 9481 5631 6203 6202 5669 6722 3232
OC82 9488 5632 5740 5657 5744 6723 3255
OC83 9480 5710 6221 6213 6206 6724 3261
OC84 9494 6200 6207 5636 6226 6720 3241

Sample formations including loco:
29/05/01
57601, 9493, 6202, 5740, 5679, 6722, 3255

25/09/01
47709, 3232, 6721, 5631, 6203, 5700, 5710, 9492
57601, 3255, 6720, 6212, 5679, 6221, 6200, 9494

01/02/03
47811, 3255, 6721, 5737, 5740, 5631, 5669, 5632, 9490, 47815




Mk2E FO(T) iirc possibly other types too

3520-3525 were the Mark 2E FO(T) vehicles that were converted (as I recall) for use on sleeper services.

6720-6724 (as referenced above in the set formations) were successively converted from Mark 2D TSOs to TSO(T), then RMB and finally RFB. Renumbering was:
5622 - 6602 - 6652 - 6720
5627 - 6610 - 6660 - 6721
5736 - 6611 - 6661 - 6722
5641 - 6612 - 6662 - 6723
5721 - 6615 - 6665 - 6724