Fifty years since the end of steam: Any commemoration planned?

[Calthrop]

Having chatted to some people in the know, there apparently was a steam tour on the S&C yesterday to mark the anniversary of the fifteen guinea special. Can't remember any details though.

I was in the area on Sat. 11th, with friends who were seeking to follow in so far as possible, and photograph, the three steam-hauled specials which ran in North-West England on that day. Steam specials on the main line are not my personal "bag" -- I was along as a "friendship" thing, and because I like that part of the country: I may thus be a bit vague and / or not totally accurate re the details; plus, have the impression from my friends that at least in a large measure, these specials would likely have been running anyway -- their being exactly fifty years after the "Fifteen-Guinea" job, largely coincidental.

At all events: the three specials -- with steam, I understand, only on the northerly parts of their respective runs - were:

Originating at and returning to Bristol: steam power A4 Union of South Africa, northbound over Shap, to Carlisle area; return via Settle & Carlisle line, then via Clitheroe and on southwards.

"Cumbrian Mountain" -- originating at and returning to London (Euston, I think): steam power Jubilee Galatea, northbound over Shap, to Carlisle area; return via Settle & Carlisle line, then via Clitheroe and on southwards.

"Waverley" -- originating at and returning to Leeds: steam power Jubilee Leander, to Carlisle area; over Settle & Carlisle line, both directions.

In each case, the train included throughout the parts of the journey with steam; a diesel loco (different types on different trains) coupled immediately behind the steam loco -- at the insistence, I gather, of Network Rail. Will just say: not to my taste -- but I'm not a devotee of this whole scene anyway. My friends, enthusiastic photographers, were disappointed at the diesel element in so far as the diesel locos seemed to be doing most of the work (with enforced diesel participation thus, largely because of perceived fire risk -- so, "diesel doing most of the stuff" was "a feature, not a bug"): consequence being, little in the way of photogenic smoke / steam from the steamers. However; there was steam working of a kind, over some of the route of the "train with the monstrous fare" fifty-years-to-the-day earlier.

 

[yorksrob]

I was in the area on Sat. 11th, with friends who were seeking to follow in so far as possible, and photograph, the three steam-hauled specials which ran in North-West England on that day. Steam specials on the main line are not my personal "bag" -- I was along as a "friendship" thing, and because I like that part of the country: I may thus be a bit vague and / or not totally accurate re the details; plus, have the impression from my friends that at least in a large measure, these specials would likely have been running anyway -- their being exactly fifty years after the "Fifteen-Guinea" job, largely coincidental.

At all events: the three specials -- with steam, I understand, only on the northerly parts of their respective runs - were:

Originating at and returning to Bristol: steam power A4 Union of South Africa, northbound over Shap, to Carlisle area; return via Settle & Carlisle line, then via Clitheroe and on southwards.

"Cumbrian Mountain" -- originating at and returning to London (Euston, I think): steam power Jubilee Galatea, northbound over Shap, to Carlisle area; return via Settle & Carlisle line, then via Clitheroe and on southwards.

"Waverley" -- originating at and returning to Leeds: steam power Jubilee Leander, to Carlisle area; over Settle & Carlisle line, both directions.

In each case, the train included throughout the parts of the journey with steam; a diesel loco (different types on different trains) coupled immediately behind the steam loco -- at the insistence, I gather, of Network Rail. Will just say: not to my taste -- but I'm not a devotee of this whole scene anyway. My friends, enthusiastic photographers, were disappointed at the diesel element in so far as the diesel locos seemed to be doing most of the work (with enforced diesel participation thus, largely because of perceived fire risk -- so, "diesel doing most of the stuff" was "a feature, not a bug"): consequence being, little in the way of photogenic smoke / steam from the steamers. However; there was steam working of a kind, over some of the route of the "train with the monstrous fare" fifty-years-to-the-day earlier.

I suppose the fact that steam specials are so common as to be coincidental to the anniversary must be a good thing for steam fans in itself.

I have some sympathy with their dissappointment at having a diesel loco push them around. A few years ago there seemed to be a craze for loco-hauling the Thumper around, something I never saw the point of.

 

[Calthrop]

I suppose the fact that steam specials are so common as to be coincidental to the anniversary must be a good thing for steam fans in itself.

I have some sympathy with their dissappointment at having a diesel loco push them around. A few years ago there seemed to be a craze for loco-hauling the Thumper around, something I never saw the point of.

I'm with you there -- my feelings tend to, "let things just be normal. for heaven's sake -- why do people so run after "weird and unnatural combinations"? I dearly love the Isle of Man and its railways; but recall that some years ago, commemorating some anniversary, there was a brief spell there of "mixing and matching": IOMR steam locos running, special-wise, on the Manx Electric; reciprocally, if my memory doesn't deceive me, "Electric on [a short stretch of] the Steam (I forget how that was contrived) -- struck me, frankly, as a bit crazy, and I wondered how far would it continue -- steam on the Douglas horse-tram route? electric ditto? Horse on the steam railway? Horse on the electric railway? steam up Snaefell, with the six-inch gauge difference somehow overcome? (I seem vaguely to recall that something like this last was actually done, unless I dreamt it) -- and please, forget the Groudle Glen -- just, too much ! One shouldn't be judgemental; and people who enjoy stuff like this, have every right to enjoy it, and I don't begrudge it to them -- only, please, "it's not my thing, so leave me out". I prefer the ordinary-and-everyday; if the ordinary-and-everyday is steam, hope that I'm duly thankful for it -- if it's non-steam, I personally prefer that to what I see as "circus antics" -- de gustibus, of course.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm with you there -- my feelings tend to, "let things just be normal. for heaven's sake -- why do people so run after "weird and unnatural combinations"? I dearly love the Isle of Man and its railways; but recall that some years ago, commemorating some anniversary, there was a brief spell there of "mixing and matching": IOMR steam locos running, special-wise, on the Manx Electric; reciprocally, if my memory doesn't deceive me, "Electric on [a short stretch of] the Steam (I forget how that was contrived) -- struck me, frankly, as a bit crazy, and I wondered how far would it continue -- steam on the Douglas horse-tram route? electric ditto? Horse on the steam railway? Horse on the electric railway? steam up Snaefell, with the six-inch gauge difference somehow overcome? (I seem vaguely to recall that something like this last was actually done, unless I dreamt it) -- and please, forget the Groudle Glen -- just, too much ! One shouldn't be judgemental; and people who enjoy stuff like this, have every right to enjoy it, and I don't begrudge it to them -- only, please, "it's not my thing, so leave me out". I prefer the ordinary-and-everyday; if the ordinary-and-everyday is steam, hope that I'm duly thankful for it -- if it's non-steam, I personally prefer that to what I see as "circus antics" -- de gustibus, of course.

My goodness, that sounds like a proper jumble. Each to their own I suppose !

 

[Calthrop]

My goodness, that sounds like a proper jumble. Each to their own I suppose !

Yeah, I'm weird. So be it...

 

[Calthrop]

Yeah, I'm weird. So be it...

Sorry -- maybe you meant the Isle of Man stuff, not my general thoughts -- I can be a wee bit paranoid...

 

[alexl92]

Shaw - whilst I do not disagree with much of what you say - if for a single weekend on the 50th anniversary the people who run our "preserved" railways cannot acknowledge where their hobby and jobs came from, then they do not deserve our custom or support and have become merely fairground rides.

Thomas has no place on any railway this commemorative weekend.

I was there fifty years ago and will be thinking of those fifty years, what has happened, those who didn't make it and enjoying a pint or two at Leyland tonight and at Kidderminster tomorrow. Shame on those who aren't.

Well I’m frankly astonished by some of your comments. As if referring to the ELR management (who operate a highly succesful and popular railway) as ‘idiots’ isn’t both disgraceful and disrespectful enough, your comments about Thomas demonstrate a total lack of understanding of a) how the industry works and b) the part Thomas has played in the popularity of heritage railways.

Whether we like it or not, the truth is that running enthusiast galas are not what makes a heritage railway its’ money. The money-spinning events are actually those in which the trains are merely a sideline or an additional attraction to the overall event - such as beer festivals, 1940s weekends and yes, Thomas the Tank Engine events (yes - the trains take centre stage but it’s the brand that brings people in). These events are the ones that bring people who wouldn’t otherwise want to go on a train to the Railway.

In the case of Thomas, where would the younger generation of volunteers be without him? It’s certainly Thomas that ignited and stoked my interest; as I grew older that interest moved onto the engines behind the stories rather than the characters and now I am fascinated by these phenomenal machines. Thomas events are key to getting younger fans interested in the railways as a whole, and are often what gets a future volunteer ‘hooked’ in the first place. They are the closest a railway can get to a ‘home-grown’ volunteer, aside from roping in family members of those who are already involved.

Someone who was 10 years old during the 1968 runs would be 60 now - most people who remember BR steam first-hand are even older. We can’t live in the past and bank on those who remember BR Steam first hand - railways have to look to the future and find ways to attract and appeal to new blood, or there’ll be no demand and no volunteers.

My final point is about the end of steam commemorations. They’re important, and I’m pleased that the GCR and SVR are doing them and doing them properly. But over the past year or so I’ve seen countless locos on various heritage lines have a ‘1T57’ headcode stuck on, and for most the link is basically just ‘This is also a steam engine pulling some coaches, just like the 15 Guinea Special’.
I love the A1 Trust and they do amazing stuff but I don’t see the point in operating a Tornado-hauled commemoration - it’s a class that is not associated with this event and a loco that didn’t even exist in ‘68.

If you have a line like the two mentioned where you can recreate scenes from the last days using authentic classes (but not necessarily the exact locos) and stock then super. The GCR did a great job and are lucky to have had 70013, a 9F, an 8F and a Standard 5 available. The SVR could offer two genuine end of steam survivors, albeit on static display. But a glance at the ELR roster for the upcoming months shows just two steam locomotives - 6990 Witherslack Hall and 34092 City of Wells - withdrawn in 1965 and 2964 respectively, so not authentic for an end of steam gala.

Should the ELR have spent a 5-figure amount of money trying to hire in suitable locos, and competed with two other leading railways with a gala of an identical theme? That would have been a commercial disaster. So, why shouldn’t they offer an alternative, and go for an event which, during the school holidays, will make them a huge sum of money that allows them to invest further in their railway and secure its future in terms of finance, infrastructure and future volunteers?

Maybe, just maybe, these lines’ management are not perfect but actually do know what they’re doing?

 

[TBirdFrank]

This is the railway that after thirty years in business can't even find a loco of its own to operate, and despite your disdain for enthusiasts is looking for them to fund the purchase of a loco to operate on the line.

I rest my case.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This is the railway that after thirty years in business can't even find a loco of its own to operate, and despite your disdain for enthusiasts is looking for them to fund the purchase of a loco to operate on the line.

I rest my case.

I'm afraid I don't think you can rest too easily then. So what if the East Lancs couldn't find a loco of their own to operate? Maybe their management skills lie elsewhere.

IMO, Alexl92 set out a very cogent set of arguments as to why the East Lancs Railway operates the way it does. If any enthusiast (or other) doesn't agree with its way of operation, that person can always join another society. It's not like there are not another 100 scattered around the British Isles. [Disclaimer: I have no connection whatsoever to the ELR, and never have had.]

To many of us, "Thomas" is ridiculous in terms of historical authenticity, but if he (or it) attracts 10, 100 or 1,000 new enthusiasts per year and plays a role in attracting future life-long volunteers, then bring 'em on, James and Gordon and whoever's needed - so long as this is at 'special events' and nobody pretends that is REALLY how it worked of old.

 

[TBirdFrank]

If you read what I said - all I asked is that for one day every ten years our "preserved railways" should perhaps reflect their origins.

Of course railways have to be commercial - what they don't have to be is arrogant and unsympathetic to their own histories.

If modern managements and supporters can't see the value of that - then really there is little more to be said.