Fined for being in first class

[Needhelpquick]

I was on a train and went the entire length of it looking for a seat. Was walking through the second to last carriage which was a first class one and an inspector stops me, show him my ticket and he asks if I’m staying in first class. I say no and go to the last carriage. No seats there either and people refusing to move bags off seats so I can sit. I walk back into first class and the way back into the normal carriage is still backed with 3 or 4 inspectors checking tickets so I sit down for maybe 5 seconds because I’m waiting for the blockage to go so I can check the other carriages for a free seat again. A different inspector comes up to me and says she’s giving me a fine for being in first class without a valid ticket. I tell her I’m just waiting to go through and I’ll just walk back into the carriage I came out of and she says no you won’t and blocks me in the seat then says I’m getting a fine because her coworker gave me a chance and I came back. I told her there was literally no seats in the last carriage and no one would move bags for me to sit so I wanted to go back but they’re in the way.

Do you think I have the grounds to appeal this?

 

[Iskra]

I’m not sure there’s much point in challenging this. By taking a seat that does look like you were remaining there, and you’ve also got multiple staff members testimony against you.

You’re probably best off just paying up promptly and moving on.

 

[greyman42]

Which train company was this?

 

[WesternLancer]

I was on a train and went the entire length of it looking for a seat. Was walking through the second to last carriage which was a first class one and an inspector stops me, show him my ticket and he asks if I’m staying in first class. I say no and go to the last carriage. No seats there either and people refusing to move bags off seats so I can sit. I walk back into first class and the way back into the normal carriage is still backed with 3 or 4 inspectors checking tickets so I sit down for maybe 5 seconds because I’m waiting for the blockage to go so I can check the other carriages for a free seat again. A different inspector comes up to me and says she’s giving me a fine for being in first class without a valid ticket. I tell her I’m just waiting to go through and I’ll just walk back into the carriage I came out of and she says no you won’t and blocks me in the seat then says I’m getting a fine because her coworker gave me a chance and I came back. I told her there was literally no seats in the last carriage and no one would move bags for me to sit so I wanted to go back but they’re in the way.

Do you think I have the grounds to appeal this?

Hi

What sort of fine were you issued with. Were you given a Penalty Fare? Were you given paperwork that specifically says Penalty Fare on it?

In railway terms a 'fine' is something different (appreciate no way for you to know this) but this is important because Penalty Fares have an Appeal process you can use, other sanctions that the railway uses (often called something like a Travel Irregularity Report) have a different process.

So it will help you get advice here accurately if you can be clear what they have given you.

In broad terms if you were sitting in 1st class seat it will not have looked ot them like you were waiting to get back past the 1st class seating area to standard class (because if that was the case that would probably have expect you to be standing and waiting to get past)
and if other passengers refused to move bags to allow you to sit down when asked (which seems a bit unlikely to me but if you say it was what happened) then really you should have gone back to find the member of staff and got them to ask the passengers to move their bags so you could sit down.

But if it was a Penalty Fare you were issued with, then there is no harm in submitting an Appeal - you have nothing to lose from doing so as far as I can see.

Incidentally - was it a train in which you had a seat reservation with your ticket by any chance?

 

[Needhelpquick]

Hi

What sort of fine were you issued with. Were you given a Penalty Fare? Were you given paperwork that specifically says Penalty Fare on it?

In railway terms a 'fine' is something different (appreciate no way for you to know this) but this is important because Penalty Fares have an Appeal process you can use, other sanctions that the railway uses (often called something like a Travel Irregularity Report) have a different process.

So it will help you get advice here accurately if you can be clear what they have given you.

In broad terms if you were sitting in 1st class seat it will not have looked ot them like you were waiting to get back past the 1st class seating area to standard class (because if that was the case that would probably have expect you to be standing and waiting to get past)
and if other passengers refused to move bags to allow you to sit down when asked (which seems a bit unlikely to me but if you say it was what happened) then really you should have gone back to find the member of staff and got them to ask the passengers to move their bags so you could sit down.

But if it was a Penalty Fare you were issued with, then there is no harm in submitting an Appeal - you have nothing to lose from doing so as far as I can see.

Incidentally - was it a train in which you had a seat reservation with your ticket by any chance?

It was a penalty fare that was given. It wasn’t a train with a reservation, I had an off peak open return and used that to get on the train.

I would have been standing but there was like 3 or 4 inspectors checking tickets and they’d just started the carriage after the first class one and it was packed full so I thought it would take a bit for them to get through so I tried to catch my breath because right before I had my ticket checked by the first inspector i ran back two carriages to hand a phone to a guy who left his while running from inspectors (probably should have followed him in hindsight lol).

She blocked me in the seat and wouldn’t let me get up to just walk back into the next carriage then threatened me with British transport police when she asked for my details.

 

[WesternLancer]

It was a penalty fare that was given. It wasn’t a train with a reservation, I had an off peak open return and used that to get on the train.

I would have been standing but there was like 3 or 4 inspectors checking tickets and they’d just started the carriage after the first class one and it was packed full so I thought it would take a bit for them to get through so I tried to catch my breath because right before I had my ticket checked by the first inspector i ran back two carriages to hand a phone to a guy who left his while running from inspectors (probably should have followed him in hindsight lol).

She blocked me in the seat and wouldn’t let me get up to just walk back into the next carriage then threatened me with British transport police when she asked for my details.

OK - thanks for the clarifications. I assume the Penalty Fare paperwork gives the instructions on how to appeal.

I guess you would have to Appeal on the grounds that you were passing through the 1st class seating area to seek a Standard Class seat in another part of the train, and had to go through it once and then back again in your effort to seek a seat, and you were only sat down whilst a small group if staff inspecting tickets prevented you laving the 1st class area.

You may not succeed but I can't see what you have to lose from appealing if you have the time to submit one. You may need to be prepared to keep appealing through the 3 appeal stages

You should be aware that prompt payment of the Penalty Fare reduces it from £100 to £50. This is paused whilst an Appeal is considered.

If you are appealing on line you need to make sure you check your e-mail and spam for replies. We have seen cases where appeal rejection notices have gone into spam, been ignored, and then the cases have escalated to court for non payment of the Penalty Fare. You need to avoid this because it is a lot more money and hassle than paying £50 if that happens.

But you may want to watch this thread for a day or so to see what others think, because if the consensus is that an Appeal is not likely to be successful then you might want to weigh up whether it is a good use of your time.

FWIW You would have been threatened ref police because failure to give your details to railway staff is itself an offence (technically more serious I think than the offence of being in a 1st class seat without the relevant ticket).

 

[sheff1]

I told her there was literally no seats in the last carriage and no one would move bags for me to sit so I wanted to go back but they’re in the way.

That sounds contradictory. If there were literally no seats there wouldn’t be seats from which bags could be moved.

 

[AlterEgo]

It was a penalty fare that was given. It wasn’t a train with a reservation, I had an off peak open return and used that to get on the train.

I would have been standing but there was like 3 or 4 inspectors checking tickets and they’d just started the carriage after the first class one and it was packed full so I thought it would take a bit for them to get through so I tried to catch my breath because right before I had my ticket checked by the first inspector i ran back two carriages to hand a phone to a guy who left his while running from inspectors (probably should have followed him in hindsight lol).

She blocked me in the seat and wouldn’t let me get up to just walk back into the next carriage then threatened me with British transport police when she asked for my details.

Which train were you on, travelling from where to where, and which train company are you dealing with?

 

[Needhelpquick]

Which train company was this?

Great northern

Which train were you on, travelling from where to where, and which train company are you dealing with?

16:39 train Great northern, from King’s Cross to Royston

That sounds contradictory. If there were literally no seats there wouldn’t be seats from which bags could be moved.

There were no seats because all of them were either being sat on or had bags on them that people refused to move. Have you never seen anyone put their bag on a seat on a train?

OK - thanks for the clarifications. I assume the Penalty Fare paperwork gives the instructions on how to appeal.

I guess you would have to Appeal on the grounds that you were passing through the 1st class seating area to seek a Standard Class seat in another part of the train, and had to go through it once and then back again in your effort to seek a seat, and you were only sat down whilst a small group if staff inspecting tickets prevented you laving the 1st class area.

You may not succeed but I can't see what you have to lose from appealing if you have the time to submit one. You may need to be prepared to keep appealing through the 3 appeal stages

You should be aware that prompt payment of the Penalty Fare reduces it from £100 to £50. This is paused whilst an Appeal is considered.

If you are appealing on line you need to make sure you check your e-mail and spam for replies. We have seen cases where appeal rejection notices have gone into spam, been ignored, and then the cases have escalated to court for non payment of the Penalty Fare. You need to avoid this because it is a lot more money and hassle than paying £50 if that happens.

But you may want to watch this thread for a day or so to see what others think, because if the consensus is that an Appeal is not likely to be successful then you might want to weigh up whether it is a good use of your time.

FWIW You would have been threatened ref police because failure to give your details to railway staff is itself an offence (technically more serious I think than the offence of being in a 1st class seat without the relevant ticket).

Thanks I asked her if it would go down if I paid within the 21 days but she said no, it would only remain the same and increase if I pay after 21 days

 

[weepingwillowb]

There were no seats because all of them were either being sat on or had bags on them that people refused to move. Have you never seen anyone put their bag on a seat on a train?

Yes, but if there are no empty seats because bags are on them, I just say "Can I sit down, please."

 

[mangyiscute]

There were no seats because all of them were either being sat on or had bags on them that people refused to move. Have you never seen anyone put their bag on a seat on a train?

I've never seen someone refuse to move their bag from a seat to allow someone else to sit there when asked - did you actually ask the people to move their bags.

 

[simonw]

It was a penalty fare that was given. It wasn’t a train with a reservation, I had an off peak open return and used that to get on the train.

I would have been standing but there was like 3 or 4 inspectors checking tickets and they’d just started the carriage after the first class one and it was packed full so I thought it would take a bit for them to get through so I tried to catch my breath because right before I had my ticket checked by the first inspector i ran back two carriages to hand a phone to a guy who left his while running from inspectors (probably should have followed him in hindsight lol).

She blocked me in the seat and wouldn’t let me get up to just walk back into the next carriage then threatened me with British transport police when she asked for my details.

Why did you go after the person who left his phone?

This plus not getting people to move their bags and then sitting down in a first class seat, doesn't seem like the behaviour of the majority of people if they found themselves in this situation. Just ask people to move their bag, and if they don't move it for them.

 

[Gloster]

Frankly, the explanation that there were bags on the seats in the last carriage and you did not ask or succeed in getting anybody to move their bag sounds very weak. Similarly, that you sat down in First Class while waiting for the inspectors to pass (did you think what their reaction would be when they reached you sitting in a First Class seat) sounds just as feeble. The two together are extraordinarily hard to believe.

 

[skyhigh]

I would have been standing but there was like 3 or 4 inspectors checking tickets and they’d just started the carriage after the first class one and it was packed full so I thought it would take a bit for them to get through so I tried to catch my breath because right before I had my ticket checked by the first inspector i ran back two carriages to hand a phone to a guy who left his while running from inspectors (probably should have followed him in hindsight lol).

If you were planning to walk through the coach again, why didn't you just say something like "excuse me" as you walked past the inspectors rather than take a seat?

 

[Kite159]

And sounds like you were lucky the first inspector gave you the chance to relocate into standard class rather than going straight down the penalty fare/details taken route.

 

[fandroid]

Please can you show on here any paperwork/ticket that you received from the second inspector (with your details and any reference number obscured). Her words about no discount put an element of doubt into the notion that it was a Penalty Fare Notice that you received. We need to check exactly what it was in order to give you the correct advice.

 

[OscarH]

And sounds like you were lucky the first inspector gave you the chance to relocate into standard class rather than going straight down the penalty fare/details taken route.

If it's correct that they were just walking through first class to get to the other standard seats (ie didn't sit down), I sure hope that they weren't lucky to avoid action the first time

 

[Krokodil]

Have you never seen anyone put their bag on a seat on a train?

All the time. But it doesn‘t stay there if I want to sit down, if they don't feel like moving it I will move it for them.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Do Cl. 700s work to Royston? If the OP sat in the rear coach, is first class declassified? Or not?

 

[SteveM70]

Do Cl. 700s work to Royston? If the OP sat in the rear coach, is first class declassified? Or not?

The OP said the first class was the second to last carriage so if that's the case it isn't a 700. What else is there that fits the bill?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The OP said the first class was the second to last carriage so if that's the case it isn't a 700. What else is there that fits the bill?

Fine, I have no idea because I don't use the line. I didn't think 717's had first class so have no idea what works the route apart from 717's and 700s

 

[Magdalia]

The OP said the first class was the second to last carriage so if that's the case it isn't a 700. What else is there that fits the bill?

A class 387, which is what is booked to form the train.

From the OP's perspective, walking through the train from the rear end, the last carriage is the front car in the direction of travel. This comprises two parts, first class after coming through the gangway then standard class immediately behind the driver.

The standard class immediately behind the driver would be full, occupied by the Cambridge parachute brigade, who are taking up position for when the train arrives in platform 1 at Cambridge, so they can be first out of the station before a queue builds at the gateline.

 

[AlterEgo]

Unfortunately my advice has to be to pay the penalty fare. You only need to ask people to move bags and they usually will (not that this is in any way relevant to the legality of the PF), and sitting down in the first class section in front of the revenue staff, having already been moved on from there is just such an indefensible action you will struggle to mount any sort of appeal.

 

[Towers]

A class 387, which is what is booked to form the train.

From the OP's perspective, walking through the train from the rear end, the last carriage is the front car in the direction of travel. This comprises two parts, first class after coming through the gangway then standard class immediately behind the driver.

The standard class immediately behind the driver would be full, occupied by the Cambridge parachute brigade, who are taking up position for when the train arrives in platform 1 at Cambridge, so they can be first out of the station before a queue builds at the gateline.

Irrelevant to the facts of the case here, but that’s a stupid layout!

 

[jumble]

I've never seen someone refuse to move their bag from a seat to allow someone else to sit there when asked - did you actually ask the people to move their bags.

I did encounter a woman who was most reluctant to move her bag a few weeks ago on the tube
I asked her why she imagined for one moment that I wanted to Stand
So they do exist but not often
some people have been known to threaten to sit on any bags which results in them being moved pretty sharpish

 

[Towers]

And sounds like you were lucky the first inspector gave you the chance to relocate into standard class rather than going straight down the penalty fare/details taken route.

Surely not; OP states they were challenged whilst merely walking through on the first occasion. That must be permissible where there is (daftly) a further section of Standard available beyond the section of First Class I’d hope?!

 

[furlong]

Please uplaod a picture of the notice you were given, covering up names/reference numbers etc.
- What amount was it for? Between which stations? Where/what time was it issued? What was the next station where the train stopped? Did you move out of first class after being given the notice or stay there past the next station where the train stopped? etc.

For penalty fares appeals:
- Was the signage at the station of origin compliant, both in terms of wording on the notices and placement of the notices?
- Were there adequately worded notices in that area of the train stating that you had to hold a "first class" ticket to sit there? (A simple '1' counts for nothing - I'm talking about the wordy notices that should have been visible in the area. I think that type of train normally does have them.) Did the staff issuing the penalty point to one of the notices and take a photograph of it so they'd easily be able to rebut an appeal on this point?
- The test is whether or not you could be said to have "remained" in the first class area (as opposed to passing through). If standard class was genuinely full then there could be further considerations, but bags on seats does not count as full.

Surely not; OP states they were challenged whilst merely walking through on the first occasion. That must be permissible where there is (daftly) a further section of Standard available beyond the section of First Class I’d hope?!

For the notice to the valid, the inspector issuing it must have decided that the OP had "remained" in the first class area. Walking through would never meet that definition. The OP seems to be arguing that sitting down for 5 seconds while waiting for a blocked aisle to clear doesn't count as "remaining" there, whereas the train company would appear to be arguing that it does amount "to continuing [being] in the same place".

 

[lnerazuma]

The TM/guard must declassified first class if there's no seat left in standard, people refusing to move seat = no seat left (who knows if they've bought 2nd ticket for their bags/equipment? Not a passenger obligation to deal with it head to head, and in this situation you have already tried your best to ask), I'd suggest you appeal and request CCTV footage for the service you've taken to show there's no seat in standard if you are confident that's true

 

[furlong]

(who knows if they've bought 2nd ticket for their bags/equipment?

Even if they bought a second ticket, another passenger is still entitled to sit there. You cannot pay to keep a seat unoccupied by a person.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

The TM/guard must declassified first class if there's no seat left in standard, people refusing to move seat = no seat left (who knows if they've bought 2nd ticket for their bags/equipment? Not a passenger obligation to deal with it head to head, and in this situation you have already tried your best to ask), I'd suggest you appeal and request CCTV footage for the service you've taken to show there's no seat in standard if you are confident that's true

There isn't a tm or guard on great northern