Fire destroys first hydrogen bus of Arriva NL

[DanielB]

Just hours after a press release was issued about it's arrival, the very first hydrogen powered bus of Arriva Netherlands caught fire after an accident in the workshop in their Doetinchem depot.
The bus was completely destroyed in the fire, as well as the workshop itself and another diesel powered bus which stood next to the hydrogen bus. The fire brigade managed, helped by the safety systems of the bus, to avoid an explosion of the hydrogen tanks.

Another nine hydrogen buses were expected to arrive from Polish manufacturer Solaris in the coming weeks, scheduled to be in service as of december 2021. This might however be delayed due to the fire.

Source (in Dutch): https://www.gld.nl/nieuws/7427452/n...op-bij-brand-arriva-sein-brandmeester-gegeven

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Wow I am bookmarking this page and following with great interest. Thanks for posting and starting the thread.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

The bus was completely destroyed in the fire, as well as the workshop itself and another diesel powered bus which stood next to the hydrogen bus. The fire brigade managed, helped by the safety systems of the bus, to avoid an explosion of the hydrogen tanks.

Can we be confident that every time a hydrogen powered bus/car/lorry/train etc is involved in an accident the fire brigade will be able to prevent the hydrogen tanks exploding....?

 

[Darandio]

Can we be confident that every time a hydrogen powered bus/car/lorry/train etc is involved in an accident the fire brigade will be able to prevent the hydrogen tanks exploding....?

The Hindenburg effect. Or maybe it's the hydrogen bomb?

Are we confident that every time a petrol powered vehicle is involved in an accident that the tank won't explode? What about compressed natural gas vehicles? There's this common misconception that hydrogen is this highly unstable and super-flammable product that is more dangerous than other readily used fuel sources. It isn't.

 

[DanielB]

Those gas powered buses are usually equipped with a release valve which prevents explosions by releasing gas in a "controlled" manner in case of excessive heating of the tanks.

Although that may lead to some collateral damage around the bus, as is nicely shown in this video of a CNG powered bus on fire with the emergency release activating (which luckily didn't happen in a narrow street).

 

[pdeaves]

The Hindenburg effect

Be fair, much of the problem with the Hindenburg was putting the gas in a huge, highly flammable bag. Our understanding of gas, materials, fire and risks has come on in leaps and bounds since those days.

 

[Darandio]

Be fair, much of the problem with the Hindenburg was putting the gas in a huge, highly flammable bag. Our understanding of gas, materials, fire and risks has come on in leaps and bounds since those days.

Which is precisely my point. As soon as hydrogen is mentioned people remind themselves of a huge flaming carcass crashing to the ground, it's not representative of a modern hydrogen vehicle. The specific post alluded to the importance of the fire brigade being around to prevent the tank from exploding. We have the same requirement when a petrol car is up in flames but with seemingly less drama.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Be fair, much of the problem with the Hindenburg was putting the gas in a huge, highly flammable bag. Our understanding of gas, materials, fire and risks has come on in leaps and bounds since those days.

Which is why Grenfell never happened (ahem).

 

[the sniper]

Which is precisely my point. As soon as hydrogen is mentioned people remind themselves of a huge flaming carcass crashing to the ground, it's not representative of a modern hydrogen vehicle. The specific post alluded to the importance of the fire brigade being around to prevent the tank from exploding. We have the same requirement when a petrol car is up in flames but with seemingly less drama.

The video linked in post 5 of just the 'safe' alternative to an explosion looks far worse than most vehicle fires...

Looks like it's from 2012, hopefully that isn't representative of a 'modern hydrogen vehicle'.

 

[TRAX]

Ooh, a little follow-up to the several battery-electric bus fires that happened these last few months in German and Dutch bus depots and at the Mercedes-Benz factory (VDL and Mercedes-Benz buses were involved, the hydrogen one mentioned in post #1 being a Solaris).
All hail progress and the eternal blind rush towards greenwashing !

Looks like it's from 2012, hopefully that isn't representative of a 'modern hydrogen vehicle'.

The bus in the video is a gas bus.

 

[DanielB]

Which is precisely my point. As soon as hydrogen is mentioned people remind themselves of a huge flaming carcass crashing to the ground, it's not representative of a modern hydrogen vehicle. The specific post alluded to the importance of the fire brigade being around to prevent the tank from exploding. We have the same requirement when a petrol car is up in flames but with seemingly less drama.

Yes, modern hydrogen vehicles are safe but the problem is when hydrogen escapes the vehicle: the gas simply has a lower concentration at which there's explosion risk than natural gas. And diesel for example needs to evaporate first to ignite.
Hydrogen is a very small molecule so it only needs a very small leak. And possible leaks already brings additional requirements for depots in which gas powered buses are parked.

Ooh, a little follow-up to the several battery-electric bus fires that happened these last few months in German and Dutch bus depots and at the Mercedes-Benz factory (VDL and Mercedes-Benz buses were involved, the hydrogen one mentioned in post #1 being a Solaris).

The depot fires in Germany involved E-Citaro's which have a new type of battery. Some of those buses also were called back to the factory due to risk of overheating.
Of the VDL E-buses only one charging bus caught fire, without much damage. The only larger fire destroyed several Ebusco buses. Not in the depot by the way, but at a location used to prepare Them for service. And AFAIK caused by a short circuit in installed equipment and not by a problem with the bus itself.

The fire in Arriva's Doetinchem depot might have had a similar cause. As the hydrogen bus had arrived only a few days earlier, it could well have been a short during installation of communication/ticketing equipment that sparked the fire.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, modern hydrogen vehicles are safe but the problem is when hydrogen escapes the vehicle: the gas simply has a lower concentration at which there's explosion risk than natural gas. And diesel for example needs to evaporate first to ignite.
Hydrogen is a very small molecule so it only needs a very small leak. And possible leaks already brings additional requirements for depots in which gas powered buses are parked.

However, hydrogen is very light so it tends to dissipate upwards very quickly, unless perhaps in an unventilated covered space. LPG is heavier than air and may collect in explosive concentrations near ground level, and I think petrol/diesel vapour does too, as it's a heavier molecule than LPG.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I was surprised to notice a hydrogen powered bus in Inverness a couple of days ago, are there many of them in the UK?

 

[TRAX]

I was surprised to notice a hydrogen powered bus in Inverness a couple of days ago, are there many of them in the UK?

No, and they are mostly in service trials at the moment.

 

[peteb]

As the hydrogen flame tends to burn strongly upwards, compared to gas or petrol which just explodes in a fireball, I'd hope that the hydrogen tanks are being installed at the rear of the vehicle and with noone sitting above them.........

 

[DanielB]

However, hydrogen is very light so it tends to dissipate upwards very quickly, unless perhaps in an unventilated covered space. LPG is heavier than air and may collect in explosive concentrations near ground level, and I think petrol/diesel vapour does too, as it's a heavier molecule than LPG.

And that's exactly what happened in Doetinchem as the hydrogen bus was standing inside the workshop.
LPG buses are no longer in use in the Netherlands, but there are quite a few CNG buses still. For example around The Hague, where they needed to be parked outdoors for quite a while as the depot needed to be adapted with more ventilation in the roof to dissipate leaking natural gas.

The local newspaper has published some pictures of the devastation inside the workshop: https://www.gelderlander.nl/doetinc...terstofbus-na-brand-in-arriva-loods~ac4c7d55/

Also visible is that the diesel bus which was also destroyed by the fire was the only VDL Ambassador in the new Arriva livery. (The hydrogen bus is the bus on the left at the photos)

 

[johncrossley]

Is there any need to experiment with hydrogen buses when the rollout of battery buses in the Netherlands has been so successful? London has been using hydrogen buses for many years so we know it works.

 

[AM9]

Which is why Grenfell never happened (ahem).

Wasn't that an electrical fire that started it?

 

[edwin_m]

Is there any need to experiment with hydrogen buses when the rollout of battery buses in the Netherlands has been so successful? London has been using hydrogen buses for many years so we know it works.

Batteries have issues with needing rare materials and may be difficult to recycle. Hydrogen fuel cells probably aren't a fully mature technology, there are difficulties with storing hydrogen, and it only makes sense if there is a supply of zero-carbon electricity to produce it (or possibly production from natural gas with carbon capture, but that's not mature either). I'm not sure if either can power a bus for a working day without needing an unreasonable amount of space and weight.

So I'd say we can't be confident that either technology is the best and it's a good idea to build up service experience and encourage development in both.

 

[johncrossley]

I'm not sure if either can power a bus for a working day without needing an unreasonable amount of space and weight.

It depends what you call 'unreasonable'. The Netherlands primarily uses 'opportunity charging' for battery buses, often charging at the terminus points, so the batteries get topped up regularly during the day. So they don't necessarily need to be charged up for the whole day first thing in the morning.

 

[alf]

And serious professionals are arguing for trains with huge tanks of amazingly flammable & far lighter than air hydrogen to be allowed to routinely run through long rail tunnels.

Diesel is liquid, far less flammable, & drops to the ground.

 

[DanielB]

Is there any need to experiment with hydrogen buses when the rollout of battery buses in the Netherlands has been so successful? London has been using hydrogen buses for many years so we know it works.

There are really distinctive uses for both types of buses. It's no coincidence that all three franchises where trials with hydrogen are ongoing are rural areas in which buses mostly run lenghty routes.

Currently hydrogen buses are trialled in the following franchises:
Groningen/Drenthe (Qbuzz):
* 32x Van Hool A330 Fuel Cell (bus 3028-3029; 7201-7230), on regional routes

Hoeksche Waard/Goeree-Overflakkee (Transdev):
* 20x Solaris Urbino 12 Hydrogen (bus 2131-2150) on regional routes
* 4x VDL Citea SLF-120 Electric H2 (bus 2000-2003) on R-net route 436 (Technically these are regular electric buses which have a trailer in which electricity to charge the bus is generated from hydrogen)

Achterhoek/Rivierenland (Arriva):
* 10x Solaris Urbino 12 Hydrogen (bus 1301-1310) on regional routes (1301 was the one distroyed in the fire)

All those franchises have routes on which a bus would easily require somewhere around three hours for one trip in both directions, being a challenge with electric buses even when opportunity charging is used. And exactly those routes are the ones where hydrogen powered buses are now being trialled as replacement of diesel buses.
The electric buses are mostly operated on somewhat shorter routes using opportunity charging. Although especially the buses from Ebusco have quite impressive ranges and are operated with depot charging only in several areas.
A good example is route 300 between Haarlem and Amsterdam: in the first electrication plans this route would have to be split in two overlapping parts, but due to the long range of the articulated Ebusco 2.2 they're now able to have a bus to make a Haarlem - Amsterdam and back trip twice prior to returning to the depot to charge.

 

[bspahh]

Those gas powered buses are usually equipped with a release valve which prevents explosions by releasing gas in a "controlled" manner in case of excessive heating of the tanks.

Although that may lead to some collateral damage around the bus, as is nicely shown in this video of a CNG powered bus on fire with the emergency release activating (which luckily didn't happen in a narrow street).

This video shows what happens if you don't have a pressure release valve

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Wasn't that an electrical fire that started it?

Yes, but I think he's referring to the flammable cladding they put on the building.

 

[edwin_m]

Diesel is liquid, far less flammable, & drops to the ground.

And the ground is where people are likely to be. More often than not it's lower risk for the fuel/vapour to rise up and dissipate in the air.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Wasn't that an electrical fire that started it?

Yes, but I think he's referring to the flammable cladding they put on the building.

Indeed, I was referring to what ought to be a reasonable suggestion by @pdeaves that:

Our understanding of gas, materials, fire and risks has come on in leaps and bounds since those days.

Whilst the Grenfell Inquiry has yet to conclude so we mustn't pre-judge it, so many previous inquiries have shown that some people / organisations do not follow up that understanding with how they subsequently operate in practice. Because it complicates things, or costs money, or they have an intent to achieve a certain goal and in doing so sideline inconvenient evidence or voices.

I'm thinking autonomous cars (substantially focused on developing the exciting new technology, sidelining genuine concerns raised by those not in the development bubble), smart motorways (substantially focused on increasing road capacity at lower cost, sidelining genuine safety concerns) and electric scooter trials (substantially focused on making it happen, it's new, it's trendy, the promoter keeps pushing, rather than genuine safety concerns raised by pavement users).

Is the 'dash for gas' blinding some people to certain risks in order to make them happen?

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @DanielB to provide an update.

 

[DanielB]

Arriva's hydrogen buses are finally in use in the "Achterhoek". One and a half year ago, the first hydrogen bus of the local bus operator was destroyed in a fire. Extensive investigations have proven the buses are safe to carry passengers.
"We have not been able to put all the pieces of the puzzle, as the fire destroyed most of the evidence", Arriva's regional director Jieskje Hollander said.

What is clear is that hydrogen has leaked from a coupling between two pipes. When this happens safety systems release all hydrogen from the bus to prevent it from exploding.
Outside, the hydrogen would have dissipated. But this hydrogen bus was inside the workshop, preventing the hydrogen from escaping. This resulted in a flammable air/hydrogen mixture, which caused the bus to catch fire.

Source (in Dutch)

The bus destroyed in the fire will not be replaced, reducing the fleet of hydrogen buses to 9 buses. Five buses have currently been delivered to Arriva, though only two have been in use this week according to the logs.