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Firefighter looking at career change

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Saintsman

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24 Nov 2015
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news guys but it's not a case of wether the toc/foc will allow you to transfer in but since April this year you haven't been allowed to transfer out of the FPS until you retire, it's not just us it's the whole of the public sector - our lovely government simply don't have the money (the robbing b'stards have spent the cash) makes my blood boil :mad:<(

Oh well our pension man in my FRS did say it is a bit of a closed shop but not completely closed depends on the scheme your trying to go into.
As I will have 25 years pension in 4 years at the age of 50 I can take my FPS then rather than leave and end up with a deferred FPS and no pension till I'm 67.
I guess the question for me after all the waffling is
At the age of 50 is that to old for TOC to consider you as a trainee?
 
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Dave999

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Oh well our pension man in my FRS did say it is a bit of a closed shop but not completely closed depends on the scheme your trying to go into.
As I will have 25 years pension in 4 years at the age of 50 I can take my FPS then rather than leave and end up with a deferred FPS and no pension till I'm 67.
I guess the question for me after all the waffling is
At the age of 50 is that to old for TOC to consider you as a trainee?

I don't think so as I spoke to someone on a course who is training with a few 50+ year olds.
 

col303

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Oh well our pension man in my FRS did say it is a bit of a closed shop but not completely closed depends on the scheme your trying to go into.
As I will have 25 years pension in 4 years at the age of 50 I can take my FPS then rather than leave and end up with a deferred FPS and no pension till I'm 67.
I guess the question for me after all the waffling is
At the age of 50 is that to old for TOC to consider you as a trainee?

I asked a similar question about deferred pensions if someone was to leave the fire service. I know there are some differences in the details between England and Scotland now so you'd need to double check this-

If you're at 21 years pension just now that'll be the old FPS I presume. You might still be on it with the protection, I missed any protection by a few weeks so I'm now on the new scheme. I was told that even though the new pension has come in now, however many years you have done on the old pension basically stays there. That means that if you left the job then the portion of old pension would be deferred to 60 then whatever is left on the new pension scheme would be deferred to 67 so you wouldn't be left with nothing till 67 if you went before 50.

You'd need to confirm that with someone properly but that was how it was explained to me. Say I leave in a year or two to go to another job I'd get the 18 years worth of old pension deferred to 60 then 2 years new pension deferred to 67.

At first I'd just presumed it was all classed as new pension now and if I left the whole lot would be deferred to 67.
 

Saltire

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I asked a similar question about deferred pensions if someone was to leave the fire service. I know there are some differences in the details between England and Scotland now so you'd need to double check this-

If you're at 21 years pension just now that'll be the old FPS I presume. You might still be on it with the protection, I missed any protection by a few weeks so I'm now on the new scheme. I was told that even though the new pension has come in now, however many years you have done on the old pension basically stays there. That means that if you left the job then the portion of old pension would be deferred to 60 then whatever is left on the new pension scheme would be deferred to 67 so you wouldn't be left with nothing till 67 if you went before 50.

You'd need to confirm that with someone properly but that was how it was explained to me. Say I leave in a year or two to go to another job I'd get the 18 years worth of old pension deferred to 60 then 2 years new pension deferred to 67.

At first I'd just presumed it was all classed as new pension now and if I left the whole lot would be deferred to 67.


I'm pretty sure, that if you've reached a minimum of 25 years and minimum age of 50 you can draw your '92 pension, but only if you leave the service, and any 2015 pension is deferred to state pension age (in my case 68), I was always under the impression that if you left before 25 years and age 50 your '92 pension was deferred to state pension age - not 60?
Like you col303, I am in the new scheme with no protection because of my age, but with over 20 years in the '92.
Because I'm in Scotland I'm panning on taking the hit at 55, just over 13 years in the new scheme, reduced by 9%. That's still more than 3 years extra contributions to get less!
It really grinds my gears that people I started with on the very same day have protection because of their age! Grievance isn't with them obviously, but the system.

Here's hoping an opportunity arises on the railways
 
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col303

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Yes you can get the old one at 50. A guy I worked with left right after his 50th birthday last December even though he was short of his 30 years.

It is frustrating about the protection. Did you put in the age discrimination thing that the union are trying? Nothing to loose I suppose. A few things I'd read plus the pension guy who came to talk to us did say 60 for deferred old pension if you left but again you'd need that confirmed properly. I specifically asked him that point. It made the thought of possibly changing jobs slightly better if that would start paying at 60 rather than walking away and having nothing till 67/68.
 

Saintsman

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col303 ,Saltire.
Cheers for the input guys I will have to get in touch with my FRS pension man but as you can imagine he's a bit busy.
I think I may have my wires crossed as regards the FPS and the NNFPS ref the deferred part.
I have a bit of protection till July/Aug next year.

I never would have thought I would even contemplate leaving before my time but I would go tomorrow if i was able.

The only thing is on a bright note,as it would appear I have missed the big recruitment by the TOC for the foreseeable future i may be 50 by the time the opportunity comes round again and I will be able to foxtrot Oscar from the FRS with my reduced pension to start a new job.
 

Starman

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26 Jan 2016
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Hiya new to the forum I'm also a firefighter with 15 years service and two years ago started applying for trainee driver roles. Pleased to say I've got to the interview stage just awaiting a date. To any other firefighter looking at a change of career into train driving all I've learned so far is that patience is a must but to be fair it was the same for me when joining the fire service!
 

Saltire

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23 Mar 2014
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Well done Starman, it's a big step leaving "the job" but like you I think it's time to move on. I've done 21 years and have also been looking at this career change but I am limited to number of toc's/foc's that operate near me - can I ask where you are located?
 

Starman

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Well done Starman, it's a big step leaving "the job" but like you I think it's time to move on. I've done 21 years and have also been looking at this career change but I am limited to number of toc's/foc's that operate near me - can I ask where you are located?

Im located in the West Midlands and have an interview with London Midland. Also I agree it is a big step leaving the Fire Service I always saw myself staying till retirement, however, my fiencee left the job twelve months ago to become a counsellor and doesn't regret it one bit as do other colleagues I know that have left the job.
 

G136GREYHOUND

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Im located in the West Midlands and have an interview with London Midland. Also I agree it is a big step leaving the Fire Service I always saw myself staying till retirement, however, my fiencee left the job twelve months ago to become a counsellor and doesn't regret it one bit as do other colleagues I know that have left the job.


I can't for the life of me figure out why so many people want to jump ship to train driving from their current career.

Train driving can be pretty friggin' crappy when you get down to it. After 20 years doing it, I'd love a 9-5 job where I can see the family at least once a week and not be half comatose from 3 weeks of 0300 starts straight onto 3 weeks of 0200 finishes stopping 100 times a day on breaks so short I can bolt food down or **** but not both
 

Yook

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I can't for the life of me figure out why so many people want to jump ship to train driving from their current career.

Train driving can be pretty friggin' crappy when you get down to it. After 20 years doing it, I'd love a 9-5 job where I can see the family at least once a week and not be half comatose from 3 weeks of 0300 starts straight onto 3 weeks of 0200 finishes stopping 100 times a day on breaks so short I can bolt food down or **** but not both

When you join the fire service you probably have skills and qualifications, unfortunately after those quals lapse all your left with are the skills that you gain as an emergency worker. Many are transferable and train driving is one of the only jobs left where you don't require to many academic quals. So it's very appealing to people trying to leave the fire service.
If I had my time again I would've become a driver before a fire fighter.

On another note, you guys looking for a change of career, the railway pension has just changed, so retirement is now 62 and not 60 like it is in the service.
That being said I'm happy that my body will cope in those later years driving and that the threat of "Capability" will not loom because of fitness (old age).
 

Fred Dinenage

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I can't for the life of me figure out why so many people want to jump ship to train driving from their current career.

Train driving can be pretty friggin' crappy when you get down to it. After 20 years doing it, I'd love a 9-5 job where I can see the family at least once a week and not be half comatose from 3 weeks of 0300 starts straight onto 3 weeks of 0200 finishes stopping 100 times a day on breaks so short I can bolt food down or **** but not both


I've dug holes to repair outside gas leaks for 29 years. Done callout / standby duties for 26 years since i finished my apprenticeship, sometimes pulling 24+ hour shifts on gas-in-property jobs on weekends as all other callout teams were busy and no relief till the next day callout teams start. No toilet in van other than an old hard hat,etc. In all weathers. It takes it's toll physically mainly but also mentally.

It's all relative really, isn't it? Others will have similar stories, always pros n cons to any job. I'm don't want to end up physically fuct like the blokes i was apprenticed to, that's part of the reason i've been applying. And i don't think i'll be pushing the trains to move them :D
 

G136GREYHOUND

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I've dug holes to repair outside gas leaks for 29 years. Done callout / standby duties for 26 years since i finished my apprenticeship, sometimes pulling 24+ hour shifts on gas-in-property jobs on weekends as all other callout teams were busy and no relief till the next day callout teams start. No toilet in van other than an old hard hat,etc. In all weathers. It takes it's toll physically mainly but also mentally.

It's all relative really, isn't it? Others will have similar stories, always pros n cons to any job. I'm don't want to end up physically fuct like the blokes i was apprenticed to, that's part of the reason i've been applying. And i don't think i'll be pushing the trains to move them :D

And you don't think train driving with it's 21st Century roster pattern and diagramme content is physically and mentally exhausting and were they going to try to sack you for a simple mistake in your gas job ? If the desperate masses on this forum ever get a driving job, they have some very, very rude awakenings ahead
 

Fred Dinenage

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Define a simple mistake! I said, it's relative. Lots of safety critical jobs out there where making a mistake will have serious consequences. And managers looking for mistakes to get rid of long-serving people who are more costly to the company than younger ones on lower rates of pay and pensions which cost the company less.

Desperate masses? Are we not worthy? Why not become a manager so you can appoint those you deem suitable?
 

G136GREYHOUND

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Define a simple mistake! I said, it's relative. Lots of safety critical jobs out there where making a mistake will have serious consequences. And managers looking for mistakes to get rid of long-serving people who are more costly to the company than younger ones on lower rates of pay and pensions which cost the company less.

Desperate masses? Are we not worthy? Why not become a manager so you can appoint those you deem suitable?

a spad, thats a simple train driving mistake, be a railway manager ! I'd rather eat foetus sausages for a living.

I claim no one is unworthy, that's entirely your take on what I have posted, not mine, No one is unworthy unless they are deaf or colour blind.

I merely fail to see what this train driving mass attraction, dream job malarkey is all about ? WHY ??
 

Fred Dinenage

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Not my dream job, i'm not a spotter, etc. For me it's safety critical and customer oriented, same as my current role. No specific qualification required ( obviously competencies need to be demonstrated), training provided, similar money to what i earn atm as i've a mortgage, not seeing pound signs, i just want similar money to what I'm earning now. And physically I can't imagine it's as difficult as digging holes using a pneumatic drill and blunt " safe-dig " shovels and spits in a hot rolled asphalt road with a concrete base course. I'm willing to be corrected though.

What did you do before driving trains?

Why did you look to driving?
 

G136GREYHOUND

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Not my dream job, i'm not a spotter, etc. For me it's safety critical and customer oriented, same as my current role. No specific qualification required ( obviously competencies need to be demonstrated), training provided, similar money to what i earn atm as i've a mortgage, not seeing pound signs, i just want similar money to what I'm earning now. And physically I can't imagine it's as difficult as digging holes using a pneumatic drill and blunt " safe-dig " shovels and spits in a hot rolled asphalt road with a concrete base course. I'm willing to be corrected though.

What did you do before driving trains?

Why did you look to driving?


Played soldiers, was a press photographer, worked for myself, because it was something I'd always wanted to do, but not at first

Customer orientated, not at all, less you have to do with punters the better, that's the guard and platform guys job, steer clear, the ones you help the most, will complain the loudest

Train driving, and it's roster pattern is physically knakering very often.

Having done it, for so long, I could not recommend it. I'm convinced people who go into it, know hardly anything about what the job entails in it's overall compositions and lifestyle restrictions, you can kiss your arse goodbye to 3 weekends out of 4 on average, get told when to take your holidays, 2 weeks in February and 2 in November, gee thanks, you can swap, really ? Miss your kids 13th and 21st Birthdays as recently happened to a couple of mates.
 
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TimmyJ20

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27 Feb 2015
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Sorry to read your views, you sound as unhappy in your role as the firefighters in theirs. It's good to hear your views however as it gives a 'warts & all' outlook of the job. Firefighters and Police are fortunate in that they are able to gain many skills and experiences which are directly transferable to the driving grade, there may well be such skills etc which train drivers gain to enable them to change career should they wish, although very uncommon I believe. Nobody should stay in a career they no longer enjoy (myself included) as this will eventually have a bearing, negative or otherwise, on their overall performance, so anyone trying to make a change should be enlightened, encouraged and assisted as much as possible. Personally I've left no stone unturned in finding out all about the role, good and bad, and I would encourage everyone else to do the same, as I'm sure you all are as you are reading this! Carry on....
 

theironroad

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These days it's not physically demanding in terms of physical strength needed. I see guys out on the track (pway) in all weathers and feel very grateful for a warm cab. The job can be tiring and demanding as the monotony of it means it is easy to switch off mentally and lose concentration and that just can't happen, because drifting off in concentration does lead to all sorts of safety of the line incidents.

While I'm not sure I want a 9-5 job, driver shift work is often extreme, 0400 starts, 0200+ finishes, nights in some places, and its not your standard 0600-1400,1400-2200,2200-0600 shifts, it is variable shift working so within a five day run you can have five different start times, yesterday I started at 1326, today 1239, tomorrow 1544 with shifts varying from 6 to 9.5 hrs.

I'm single and hate the shift work.......I know guys with wife and kids and who miss out on stuff.

Overall, it is still a good job (despite the current pension turbulence) but variable shift work takes some getting use to, if ever.......
 

Fred Dinenage

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23 Jul 2013
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Nice to see such open replies. Until there's a " **** job " forum i doubt the reasons lots of desperados aspire to the rail industry will become clear :D
 

IKB

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I can't for the life of me figure out why so many people want to jump ship to train driving from their current career.

Train driving can be pretty friggin' crappy when you get down to it. After 20 years doing it, I'd love a 9-5 job where I can see the family at least once a week and not be half comatose from 3 weeks of 0300 starts straight onto 3 weeks of 0200 finishes stopping 100 times a day on breaks so short I can bolt food down or **** but not both

It depends on what sector you are leaving and what your working life is like. Everything is subjective. I left policing for very good reasons. Some highlights:

- Cancelled rest days with no notice due to 'events', especially in London (doesn't happen on the railways). When the next terrorist atrocity happens in London it will be case of 'no rest days until further notice'. Impossible to plan your life.
-Short notice compulsory overtime - we had no 'timetable' - everything is determined by events when that person rings 999. Late arrests, public disorder. If your shift ends at 10pm and you arrest a shoplifter at 9pm, you'll still be there at 1am. Happens all the time. Very draining.
- Frozen or declining wages. The police have not long come out of a three year pay freeze. They got a measly 1% last autumn. Over the past few years my wages in real terms actually went down (doesn't happen on the railways)
- No extra pay for Sundays. Current proposal is only to recognise two Bank Holidays per year and treat the others as normal rate working.
- Uniformed Met officers on 999 teams now get only EIGHT full weekends off per year.
- High probability (especially in uniform) that you will be working August bank holiday, Christmas and boxing day and new years eve. Only a small % get these off and its a lottery, with constant last minute changes. Impossible to plan.
- Few (if any) employment rights. No right to strike. The Police Federation (not a union) have no teeth, which is why the police lose at every pay/pension negotiation.
- No equivalent of the railways Hidden Regulations. There is notional guide that you should have 11hrs between shifts, but try and stick to that and your life would be made very uncomfortable by your supervisors. It doesn't happen.
-Having to beg and send email after email to get paid overtime you are owed for hours worked (when you'd of rather been at home anyway).
- Ever increasing violence from the public towards officers. Hundreds are assaulted every week up and down the country. Punishments are negligible. I was seriously assaulted a couple of years ago, the offender got a pathetic sentence.
- The constant risk of catching viruses from people you're dealing with - HIV, Hep B, Hep C etc etc. They bite and spit at you on purpose. Searching a man with scabies was not the highlight of my career!
- Constant criticism for things which are outside your control and you have no influence over (ok...I see a parallel with Network Rail there!).
- An oppressive internal culture from senior officers that stamps on criticism and dissent. You do as you're told and if you don't like it, there's the door...
- The pressure of your case load. I have colleagues in CID/child protection that cry at work due to the strains of their jobs. They work overtime unpaid and come in on rest days just to keep on top of their work files.
- Budget cuts that have an impact on services you can provide - the Met have closed 60+ police stations. The buildings are falling apart, the cars are the cheapest they could get. There aren't enough staff to respond to the volume to work (e.g. 999 calls, crime reports) that come in.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

I hear what you're saying about shift work. But so long as someone fully researches the role before they apply, they should have too many surprises, no? Thanks to many on this forum I knew before I applied that I would be doing 3am starts and finishes.

Anyhow, just my two cents worth to show that life isn't rosy elsewhere.
 

Trico382

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Very interesting observations IKB and i can tell you it is not just the Met! They are only some of the reasons I am also seeking employment outside of the job
 

oxoneil

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This must be the same all over the country. I think the days of the 30 year PC must be well and truly over and I don't begrudge anyone who leaves the job having done 30 years as a PC, it's a pretty thankless job in the main. From the sound of your experiences it sounds pretty grim where you are/were.

As an an side, given that this started as an side firefighter based thread, did you know there's another one called police officer to train driver?
 

IKB

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This must be the same all over the country. I think the days of the 30 year PC must be well and truly over and I don't begrudge anyone who leaves the job having done 30 years as a PC, it's a pretty thankless job in the main. From the sound of your experiences it sounds pretty grim where you are/were.

As an an side, given that this started as an side firefighter based thread, did you know there's another one called police officer to train driver?

Agree, fewer are doing the full 30 these days. Lots leaving the Met around the five to fifteen mark. Some of what I wrote was worst case scenario stuff and didn't happen every day, but it was often enough to make your working life miserable. I forgot to mention the fun and games of attending court on a rest day and not being required! In fact the last three warnings I had before I left were on rest days. So much for MG10s!

I think I posted on the other thread, but was specifically replying to G136GREYHOUNDs question about why people jump ship from their jobs.
 
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G136GREYHOUND

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Agree, fewer are doing the full 30 these days. Lots leaving the Met around the five to fifteen mark. Some of what I wrote was worst case scenario stuff and didn't happen every day, but it was often enough to make your working life miserable. I forgot to mention the fun and games of attending court on a rest day and not being required! In fact the last three warnings I had before I left were on rest days. So much for MG10s!

I think I posted on the other thread, but was specifically replying to G136GREYHOUNDs question about why people jump ship from their jobs.


You need to put some serious thought into it, the grass/greener is one to remember.

If you want to put some serious research into train driving before you pack in a career in the Police and Fire Service for this railway nirvana that is a myth remember that railway morale is at rock bottom and I seriously suggest trying something like the following

Take 2 weeks off work

Arrange something vital with your kid on the 2nd Wednesday and with your wife on the 1st Sunday

Get a big 8 foot x 2 foot cardboard box from Ikea and cut a 2 foot square hole in it

Buy a train driving simulator and load it onto your PC

Find a really uncomfortable chair and put it inside box with keyboard and monitor in hole in box

turn off all phones and devices, make sure you are alcohol zero

Monday - Saturday get up at 0200, drive your car for 45 mins, wait for half an hour then drive back home. Start up PC game and drive over same route on game 4 times over 10 hours taking a 30 min and 15 min break, no leaving the box to wee mind you, only during break. Make sure the route has at least 20 stops a time

Repeat Monday to Saturday, Friday get your mate to phone you up saying Sunday off is declined and explain to wife,

Repeat Sunday

Take Monday and Tuesday off

Repeat above Wednesday, Thurs, Friday, Saturday except get up at 0400 and stay on the PC game for 10 hours plus your travel time

Take Sunday off

Monday, Tuesday repeat but start at 1400 and stay for 10.5 hours plus your travel time

Also get your mate to phone you up Monday saying you have to start at 12.00 for 11 hours, explain to kid and wife why you now can't do the thing you planned with your kid on Wednesday

Thursday Start out at 1400 for 10 hours in work plus the travel time

Take Friday and saturday off

Start out at 0100 Sunday for 9 hours plus the travel time

In all seriousness, try it and see if you want to stick it for 20 years, and so much of the hassle you experience on a day to day basis is missing even on the above
 
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IKB

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You need to put some serious thought into it, the grass/greener is one to remember.

I hear what you're saying about the repetitive nature of the tasks involved, I really do. But I still think the benefits on the railways far outweigh the list of negatives people are escaping from (some of which I listed on the previous page).

You mention sitting in a cardboard box all day long. I won't routinely get violently assaulted sat in that cardboard box (not accounting for freak incidents). I get to go home alive at the end of the day. That's a big plus.

I used to sit in a police car, often for 8-10 hours a day. Crappy cars with ****ty bucket seats. I had to wear ill fitted body armour that made my back ache like hell. Imagine sitting in a corset all day that weighs 10Kgs!

Going to repetitive Wayne vs Waynetta type domestics every day. Dealing with endless drunks spinning the same old yarn about the bouncer throwing them out of nightclub. And on and on. I've developed the patience of a Saint.

I will no longer be subject to malicious complaints from those seeking to muddy legal waters or constantly having your integrity questioned for doing your job.

All the drawbacks you listed with regards to shift working happen elsewhere. 999 services are 24/7 too. That impacts on ones personal circumstances just like it does on the railways. Like I mentioned on the previous page, uniform Met response officers now get 8 full weekends off per year. Mid-week days off are nothing new or novel. At least you know for certain yours won't get cancelled for court or spontaneous events etc. I will no longer reach the end of my shift, only for it to be extended by five hours because of prisoners or outstanding calls etc.

People often reach a point where for their own mental sanity need to do something different. For those without certifiable skills or professional qualifications, finding another job that pays similar or better can be very difficult.
 
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oxoneil

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Agree, fewer are doing the full 30 these days. Lots leaving the Met around the five to fifteen mark. Some of what I wrote was worst case scenario stuff and didn't happen every day, but it was often enough to make your working life miserable. I forgot to mention the fun and games of attending court on a rest day and not being required! In fact the last three warnings I had before I left were on rest days. So much for MG10s!

I think I posted on the other thread, but was specifically replying to G136GREYHOUNDs question about why people jump ship from their jobs.

Yeah no probs, just wondered if you knew about it so you can join us ;)

You've obviously been successful and left while I think the other thread seems to be people like me still trying to leave. I'm TVP just now and while I recognise the picture you're painting it's not quite that bad.
 
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