First Class on The Underground

[Jan Mayen]

Have London Underground every had First Class seats? I ask as I've just noticed this on Realtime Trains, which made me smile:

• UID C24172, identity 2O11
  TSC 24682004
• Altered WTT schedule
  13th January 2024 only
• London Underground or Metro
• Great Britain (Network Rail, TPS)
• Pathed as Electric multiple unit
  Planned for 45mph max
• First & Standard class seating

Realtime Trains | 2O11 1402½ Upminster L.T. to Upminster L.T. | 13/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 2O11 1402½ departure from Upminster L.T. to Upminster L.T. on 13/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[stuu]

Have London Underground every had First Class seats? I ask as I've just noticed this on Realtime Trains, which made me smile:

• UID C24172, identity 2O11
  TSC 24682004
• Altered WTT schedule
  13th January 2024 only
• London Underground or Metro
• Great Britain (Network Rail, TPS)
• Pathed as Electric multiple unit
  Planned for 45mph max
• First & Standard class seating

Realtime Trains | 2O11 1402½ Upminster L.T. to Upminster L.T. | 13/01/2024

Real-time train running information for 2O11 1402½ departure from Upminster L.T. to Upminster L.T. on 13/01/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Yes, but not since 1940 or so! Bit of lag with the data feed

 

[PeterC]

Did any of the deep level lines ever have 1st class? I know that the Central London Railway didn't.

At the other extreme the Metropolitan even had Pullman cars.

 

[Rescars]

Did any of the deep level lines ever have 1st class? I know that the Central London Railway didn't.

At the other extreme the Metropolitan even had Pullman cars.

The City and South London didn't either. The Prince of Wales commented on this in his speech when he opened the line.

 

[D7666]

Not first class but catering : the Central LIne (at least I think it was the Central) did have a catering trolley service one day.

Of legend if loco bashers, a certain BR trolley operative / class 40 basher was known to go "off route" with trolley while chasing 40s; one day said basher ended up in London, way off route as he was Manchester area based. I can't remember the exact sequence now but it was something like a 40 into Paddington, Central Line from Lancaster Gate to Liverpool Street, for a 37 out; on the tube a sale was made from the trolley. The actual events faded from my grey cells now, might have been the Met./Circle between the two terminii, or east to west not west to east, whatever, it happened.

 

[Snow1964]

Both District and Metropolitan had First Class

It was temporarily suspended during WW2 in 1940 for duration, not sure when the temporary suspension became permanent.

 

[Mag_seven]

The Paris Metro had first class until relatively recently (1981) which as far as I can recall in its latter years only operated at certain times of the day. We even had a thread on it.

1st Class on the Paris Metro

I just heard a radio programme (not at all transport-related) that trains on the Paris Metro (or at least certain lines thereof) included a section classified as first class, until as recently as 1981. (Googling brings up the legislation approved in that year that abolished this, so this is...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

I think the last trains built with First Class the 1938 P Stock on District line. They had hinged wooden doors with windows across the central gangway to separate the First class area. Obviously had better upholstered seats than normal.

I think they retained the area, and door frames into the 1980s (although doors had been removed years earlier).

One caveat is have seen reference to First Class provision on batch of 1949 R stock, but fairly sure they were delivered with just one standard class. (This was batch that were red, except last one that was aluminium and ended up being displayed at Festival of Britain)

 

[Dstock7080]

One caveat is have seen reference to First Class provision on batch of 1949 R stock, but fairly sure they were delivered with just one standard class. (This was batch that were red, except last one that was aluminium and ended up being displayed at Festival of Britain)

R Stock didn’t have first class provision even on the converted Q38 trailer cars that made it to R38 DMs.
All steel R Stock were initially painted red until the aluminium cars came along.

 

[A S Leib]

At the other extreme the Metropolitan even had Pullman cars

Just the longer-distance routes (Aylesbury / Amersham, maybe Chesham and Watford) or the current Hammersmith & City and East London lines as well?

 

[D7666]

< light blue touchpaper >



One could argue the only need to distinguish between classes is when there is more than one; since LU is single class, it is all first class.



< retired a safe distance >

R Stock didn’t have first class provision even on the converted Q38 trailer cars that made it to R38 DMs.
All steel R Stock were initially painted red until the aluminium cars came along.

A question :

Those two 1940s prototype Met.line car rebuilds to 17000 (later 17001) and 20000, did they have first class provision ?

 

[stadler]

The Paris Metro had first class until relatively recently (1981) which as far as I can recall in its latter years only operated at certain times of the day. We even had a thread on it.

1st Class on the Paris Metro

I just heard a radio programme (not at all transport-related) that trains on the Paris Metro (or at least certain lines thereof) included a section classified as first class, until as recently as 1981. (Googling brings up the legislation approved in that year that abolished this, so this is...

www.railforums.co.uk

Even to this day Dubai still has first class on both their metro and their trams. These are just your standard metro trains and standard trams but yet they have actually put a first class section on them with larger more comfortable seats. The maximum possible metro journey is 30 minutes and the maximum possible tram journey is 15 minutes so it seems rather pointless. I guess it is such a wealthy country that the people there do not mind paying double for such a short journey. I think Dubai may be the only place left in the world with first class on their metro and the only place left in the world with first class on their trams.

Just the longer-distance routes (Aylesbury / Amersham, maybe Chesham and Watford) or the current Hammersmith & City and East London lines as well?

I believe the Pullman carriages were just used on services from Aldgate / Baker Street / Liverpool Street / Moorgate going to Amersham / Aylesbury / Chesham / Verney Junction or vice versa. So only the longer distance Metropolitan Line services. There was two carriages named Galatea and Mayflower which were used.

 

[D7666]

One could also argue Thameslink is an underground line. It has first class - all 700s do - although all declassified on some service patterns and part declassified on the rest.

In legal terms, the Thameslink core is "Section 12" making it underground under London if not London UndergrounD. Even then, Farringdon station is all LU not NR/TOC.

 

[Jan Mayen]

One could also argue Thameslink is an underground line. It has first class - all 700s do - although all declassified on some service patterns and part declassified on the rest.

In legal terms, the core is "Section 12" making it underground under London if not London UndergrounD.

Please would you elaborate on what section 12 is? Many thanks

 

[D7666]

Please would you elaborate on what section 12 is? Many thanks

In simple terms, the fire regulation that came into place after the Kings Cross fire.

It applies to the layout and access, not specific to underground railways but to stations - for example Birmingham New Street is a Section 12 station being below ground level mostly buried under other clutter with limited access and egress.

Simple rule is if 50% of more is below ground level it is Section 12, but as usual with these things, they are case by case and not necessarily all black and white.

I think the proper name is Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations 1989 Section 12, and, also, the nomenclature might up been changed with a more recent change to the regulations.

 

[Enthusiast]

Just the longer-distance routes (Aylesbury / Amersham, maybe Chesham and Watford) or the current Hammersmith & City and East London lines as well?

The Metropolitan Railway had just two Pullman cars - Mayflower and Galatea. They were introduced in 1911 and between then and their withdrawal in 1940 ran various services between Liverpool Street, Chesham, Aylesbury and Verney Junction. Here's a copy of the timetable which is said to be c.1930:

Metropolitan Railway, London - details of weekday Pullman car services, c1930

The Metropolitan Railway, the world's first "Underground" when it opened in 1863, had an extensive network of services that ran out from London many miles into the surrounding territory to the north-west of London out into deepest Buckinghamshire and the remote station at Verney Junction. In an...

www.flickr.com

 

[A S Leib]

Even to this day Dubai still has first class on both their metro and their trams. These are just your standard metro trains and standard trams but yet they have actually put a first class section on them with larger more comfortable seats. The maximum possible metro journey is 30 minutes and the maximum possible tram journey is 15 minutes so it seems rather pointless. I guess it is such a wealthy country that the people there do not mind paying double for such a short journey. I think Dubai may be the only place left in the world with first class on their metro and the only place left in the world with first class on their trams.


I believe the Pullman carriages were just used on services from Aldgate / Baker Street / Liverpool Street / Moorgate going to Amersham / Aylesbury / Chesham / Verney Junction or vice versa. So only the longer distance Metropolitan Line services. There was two carriages named Galatea and Mayflower which were used.

The Metropolitan Railway had just two Pullman cars - Mayflower and Galatea. They were introduced in 1911 and between then and their withdrawal in 1940 ran various services between Liverpool Street, Chesham, Aylesbury and Verney Junction. Here's a copy of the timetable which is said to be c.1930:

Metropolitan Railway, London - details of weekday Pullman car services, c1930

The Metropolitan Railway, the world's first "Underground" when it opened in 1863, had an extensive network of services that ran out from London many miles into the surrounding territory to the north-west of London out into deepest Buckinghamshire and the remote station at Verney Junction. In an...

www.flickr.com

Thank you. Interesting to see services being run for presumably leisurely purposes at weekends instead of just weekday Pullman services.

 

[stuu]

Even to this day Dubai still has first class on both their metro and their trams. These are just your standard metro trains and standard trams but yet they have actually put a first class section on them with larger more comfortable seats. The maximum possible metro journey is 30 minutes and the maximum possible tram journey is 15 minutes so it seems rather pointless. I guess it is such a wealthy country that the people there do not mind paying double for such a short journey. I think Dubai may be the only place left in the world with first class on their metro and the only place left in the world with first class on their trams.

Doha in Qatar has something similar. Its purely for show

 

[etr221]

Both the Metropolitan and Metropolitan District Railways - which considered themselves as part of the national system provided both 1st and 3rd class accommodation; the Metropolitan added 1st Class on the Great Northern and City section (the 'big tube') in 1915, after it had taken over the GN&CR. My understanding is that none of the other tube railways ever did (even the Waterloo & City and the Bakerloo to Watford).
This remained the position under the LPTB from 1933: however 1st Class was withdrawn from the Hammersmith & City and East London services on 4 May 1936, and the GN&C section on (I think) 14 May 1939, when it bacame part of the Northern Line, with change to the standard conductor rail positions, and services being being taken by 'Standard' pre-1938 tube stock. And then - as a result of the war, from 1st February 1940 on all lines except the Met beyond Harrow to Watford, Chesham and Aylesbury (Joint section with LNER), where it survived until 6th September 1941 (when it was also withdrawn from 'main line' suburban services in the London Passenger Transport Area).
New LPTB stock in the late 1930s reflected this: the District M, N (both later Q35), and Q38, and the Met O & P stock all included 1st Class accommodation, although how different and segregated it was is questionable (and some cars with '1st Class' only entered service after it had been wihdrawn).

Finally, the Met's Pullman service was with drawn on 7 October 1939. But apparently there were ideas of refreshment service for the far end of Met, both as as part of wartime post-war planning, and in 1951, but these did not get beyond being floated.

 

[30907]

Thank you. Interesting to see services being run for presumably leisurely purposes at weekends instead of just weekday Pullman services.

I presume you mean the late-night supper train, which catered for theatre-goers etc? Other than that, I can only see balancing workings for the peak hour trains.

 

[BeijingDave]

Doha in Qatar has something similar. Its purely for show

Beijing's new airport (Daxing) line, officially a metro line, has first and standard class, priced at 50rmb and 25rmb respectively.

Well worth paying for first class, which is practically empty and therefore doesn't require participation in a Jenga-like assembly of luggage in the space at the carriage end.

Also an almost guaranteed desk and plug point for the 15 minute journey.

 

[PeterC]

I presume you mean the late-night supper train, which catered for theatre-goers etc? Other than that, I can only see balancing workings for the peak hour trains.

Most offices would have worked a five and a half day week then hence the Saturday service.

Early post war timetables still showed a Saturday morning and midday peak.

 

[jamesr]

Hong Kong’s East Rail Line also retains a first class carriage, including the new trains introduced earlier this decade. It’s basically the difference between a metro-style interior with metal seats and a more traditional regional carriage layout. The full run up to the border isn’t much short of an hour, and it’s much more enjoyable to be able to sit and look out of the window.

 

[A S Leib]

I presume you mean the late-night supper train, which catered for theatre-goers etc? Other than that, I can only see balancing workings for the peak hour trains.

I misread the timetable and thought it was Saturdays only and Sundays only for some reason, rather than Saturday having fewer Pullman services overall than weekdays.

 

[Taunton]

The Metropolitan Railway had just two Pullman cars - Mayflower and Galatea.

This was, amazingly, a Mastermind TV programme question, around 1986 I think. I remember it coming up. The Specialist Subject was "Railways in London". Question was "The Met had two Pullman cars, one was Mayflower, what was the other?". Answered correctly.

And there was another, even more luxurious. Lord Rothschild, prominent and extraordinarily wealthy banker, built Waddesdon Manor, close to Quainton Road station on the Met north of Aylesbury, and had a private saloon which up to 1914 was attached, when he was going to his office in the City, to a morning Met train. When one of the two Pullman cars was off for maintenance, and if he was not travelling that day, the Met would hire it as a substitute. This saloon came to the attention of the author of "The Railway Children", written in 1905, who made such a saloon and owner a centrepiece of the story.

 

[Rescars]

This was, amazingly, a Mastermind TV programme question, around 1986 I think. I remember it coming up. The Specialist Subject was "Railways in London". Question was "The Met had two Pullman cars, one was Mayflower, what was the other?". Answered correctly.

And there was another, even more luxurious. Lord Rothschild, prominent and extraordinarily wealthy banker, built Waddesdon Manor, close to Quainton Road station on the Met north of Aylesbury, and had a private saloon which up to 1914 was attached, when he was going to his office in the City, to a morning Met train. When one of the two Pullman cars was off for maintenance, and if he was not travelling that day, the Met would hire it as a substitute. This saloon came to the attention of the author of "The Railway Children", written in 1905, who made such a saloon and owner a centrepiece of the story.

I woner why these names were chosen. AIUI, Galatea was a sea nymph. Whilst such a name would make perfect sense as part of a boat train say, it seems a strange choice for a Pullman destined never to go anywhere near the sea.

 

[30907]

I misread the timetable and thought it was Saturdays only and Sundays only for some reason, rather than Saturday having fewer Pullman services overall than weekdays.

Thanks.
Though looking more closely, the SX 1149 off Liverpool Street and 135 off Aylesbury, while they are balancing workings, have remarkably long layovers in London and look to be timed for a little luncheon business.

 

[D7666]

I woner why these names were chosen. AIUI, Galatea was a sea nymph. Whilst such a name would make perfect sense as part of a boat train say, it seems a strange choice for a Pullman destined never to go anywhere near the sea.

Non specifically, surely Galatea, while not incorrectly a sea nymph, is more likely to refer to the Greek myth where a statue is brought to life by Aphrodite ? (There are other Galateas.)

Allegedly the 2 Pullman cars Galatea and Mayflower named after the 1886 competing yachts in the America's Cup Race, although why is probably lost. I'd suggest even then, naming the Pullman after the yacht Galatea more likely named after the Greek, not the nymph.


Not sure any Pullman car name ever had a direct link with where it operated, anywhere, other than "backronym" suggestions.


Digressing, completely, going back a while, in those days when railtours / charters used to convey parties to BNFL Sellafied, BNFL asked the tour operators to stop using the Pullman car set known as "Beryl & Cheryl" as Cheryl was a little too close to home to Chernobyl which they tended to be a little sensitive about. And that anecdote is true, the late Mr.Farrow of (then) Hertfordshire Railtours got involved with this.

 

[philthetube]

Did any of the deep level lines ever have 1st class? I know that the Central London Railway didn't.

At the other extreme the Metropolitan even had Pullman cars.

Until the introduction of the S stock there were just two through services from Chesham to London, these were indicated on the timetable with a P, apparently a throwback to when there were Pulman's.

 

[Rescars]

Non specifically, surely Galatea, while not incorrectly a sea nymph, is more likely to refer to the Greek myth where a statue is brought to life by Aphrodite ? (There are other Galateas.)

Allegedly the 2 Pullman cars Galatea and Mayflower named after the 1886 competing yachts in the America's Cup Race, although why is probably lost. I'd suggest even then, naming the Pullman after the yacht Galatea more likely named after the Greek, not the nymph.


Not sure any Pullman car name ever had a direct link with where it operated, anywhere, other than "backronym" suggestions.


Digressing, completely, going back a while, in those days when railtours / charters used to convey parties to BNFL Sellafied, BNFL asked the tour operators to stop using the Pullman car set known as "Beryl & Cheryl" as Cheryl was a little too close to home to Chernobyl which they tended to be a little sensitive about. And that anecdote is true, the late Mr.Farrow of (then) Hertfordshire Railtours got involved with this.

You are no doubt correct about the origin of the names. As to why these were chosen is almost certainly now lost.

Without straying too far off-thread, Julian Morel in his history of Pullman notes that Sir Edward Watkin was no lover of Pullman and these services did not appear until several years after his death. He tells that one of the cars was used on a special working on 09/12/1932 to mark the opening of the Stanmore branch. Morel also notes that in later times Sir John Elliot was chair of both LTE and Pullman and, through this connection, Pullman chefs benefited from refresher skills training at LTE's excellent catering facilities - all of which no doubt contributed to the enviably high standards maintained at that time by the various messes at 55 Broadway.